Mixing terminology

[Kong Soo Do]

I've seen many arts over the years that may have a specific ethnic background but use terminology from another. Mostly these are hybrid or blended arts. For example, A Korean based art that uses Japanese or Okinawan terminology like titles, counting etc or vice versa. Again, it appears that these are at least somewhat blended with the secondary culture, or at least that is my assumption.

Just wanted to get peoples thoughts on the viability of doing that. Thank you.

 

[Thesemindz]

It doesn't really matter what you call it as long as your terminology is consistent "in house." I mean sure, it leads to misunderstandings here on MT all the time, but as long as all your students know what you mean when you say "up block" than it doesn't matter what you're referring to, class will go on unabated.

In the larger scheme of things it can get confusing, especially when the terms are used to refer to completely different techniques or aspects of training, or when words from foreign languages are inappropriately applied or where the meaning of a term has changed from the art that gave it birth to the art that uses the term today. Even within arts the same terms can mean completely different things from school to school. And of course, there are many such as myself that take techniques from other arts all the time. I usually refer to the techniques I use by the names they had in the styles I borrowed them from, but over time they usually end up with "kenpo names" anyway, because we have our own language that is internally consistent and it can be more confusing to students to have to learn "upa," which is objectively meaningless to them, instead of "upward diagonal rolling mount escape" which immediately makes sense according to our own naming conventions.

I try not to mispronounce or misapply words from other languages and arts, but only because I don't want to sound like a jackass. I could call the front kick the flying purple people eater and it wouldn't make any difference to my students, because we'd all be speaking the same language in class either way and that's all that matters.


-Rob

 

[Thesemindz]

It should also be noted that the reason japanese martial artists used japanese terms for their techniques is because they all spoke japanese. Ditto the koreans and the thai and the brazilians. Everybody teaches the horizontal punch and everybody has their own name for it in their native tongue. But when one hits you in the face, everybody knows what technique we're talking about.


-Rob

 

[Tez3]

Although we teach a Korean style TSD we try to also use Japanese terminology as we know our children when they leave us may well not find a TSD class at their next place. They keep folders which we and they add to about other martial arts so wherever they end up hopefully they will feel reasonably at home whatever the style.

 

[dancingalone]

I've seen many arts over the years that may have a specific ethnic background but use terminology from another. Mostly these are hybrid or blended arts. For example, A Korean based art that uses Japanese or Okinawan terminology like titles, counting etc or vice versa. Again, it appears that these are at least somewhat blended with the secondary culture, or at least that is my assumption.

Just wanted to get peoples thoughts on the viability of doing that. Thank you.

Frequently it's because the introduced word didn't exist before it was transplanted. Consider the opposite flow of terminology from Japanese karate into the Okinawan karate parent. One example would be gedan barai or low block. The Okinawans weren't big on formalizing or standardizing things, so they never bothered to introduce a universal vocabulary for the techniques within their martial arts. But now you can say 'gedan barai' in an Okinawan karate dojo, and most anyone will know instantly what you are talking about. I personally believe the Japanese influence in this respect has been helpful.

In the US, you frequently find people mixing terms of different origins. In a TKD dojang, you might hear people talking about 'katas' [sic] instead of using hyung as the term. I don't think it's too big of a deal. American martial arts has frequently been eclectic, taking a bit from here and there, echoing in a microcosm the melting pot history of the country.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I speak in English and all my students predominantly speak English! Hence why all of our terminology is in English!

 

[Senjojutsu]

To quote from William Shakespeare's ROMEO and JULIET (1597)

(Act II, Scene II) Juliet:
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."

... and my personal disclaimer before I end in my Rant "Lighten up Francis" from the Movie STRIPES (1981) as Warren Oates playing Sgt. Hulka slaps down "Psycho".

At the first level within teacher-student communications - especially in terms of a concept versus something more distinct as a specific technique - is the ability to impart the underlying knowledge/idea so the students understand and comprehend. So what's in a name Francis?

But I have noticed through my years that the mixing of cross-cultural terminology may be a RED FLAG regarding the school (instructor) knowledge and legitimacy. The whole thing behind using Oriental terminology to give the school an added aura of validity - but then to mix and improperly use Oriental terms and mismash MA history - it IMHO may warn of a bigger problem.

Using some common sense benchmarks - walk into Ernie's American Karate does it matter? - but if there is a selling point of learning a thousand-year tradition and lineage to the round-eyed Soke Grandmaster - well we may have "When the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor" moment.
:mst:

 

[Kong Soo Do]

To quote from William Shakespeare's ROMEO and JULIET (1597)

(Act II, Scene II) Juliet:
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."

... and my personal disclaimer before I end in my Rant "Lighten up Francis" from the Movie STRIPES (1981) as Warren Oates playing Sgt. Hulka slaps down "Psycho".

At the first level within teacher-student communications - especially in terms of a concept versus something more distinct as a specific technique - is the ability to impart the underlying knowledge/idea so the students understand and comprehend. So what's in a name Francis?

But I have noticed through my years that the mixing of cross-cultural terminology may be a RED FLAG regarding the school (instructor) knowledge and legitimacy. The whole thing behind using Oriental terminology to give the school an added aura of validity - but then to mix and improperly use Oriental terms and mismash MA history - it IMHO may warn of a bigger problem.

Using some common sense benchmarks - walk into Ernie's American Karate does it matter? - but if there is a selling point of learning a thousand-year tradition and lineage to the round-eyed Soke Grandmaster - well we may have "When the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor" moment.
:mst:

Interesting post and thank you. I've seen Taekwondo Karate and Tang Soo Do Karate. I've seen kata used rather than hyung and sensei rather than sabum. Perhaps not really that big a deal?

But then I've also seen Hapkido Sokes....

 

[Kong Soo Do]

We often use a mix of Korean and Okinawan terminology. As Okinawan training preceeded the Korean training, I've always been more comfortable with it. To this day, I'm still referred to as Sensei even from people who weren't students but know me. I'm just more comfortable with it.

 

[OKenpo942]

This thread kind of reminds me of the quote, "When pure knuckles meet pure flesh, that's pure Karate, no matter who executes it or whatever style is involved." - Ed Parker

Who cares what you call it as long as it works.

James

 

[stone_dragone]

One example would be gedan barai or low block.

I'm not sure if this was on purpose or coincidental, but in the post (above) that this was taken from we see a great example of the evolution of terms and their meanings.

In its most common usage in karate based styles, if you ask a young yellow belt what a gedan barai is you will get "low block" or "down block." The term actually indicates the execution method and is rather specific - a lower level sweeping motion (gedan indicating lower level and barai being a sweep). Some schools call a down block a gedan barai, some call it a gedan uke (uke = block in this context). Some schools teach both a gedan barai and a gedan uke (the latter being a more direct thrusting motion than a cross body sweeping motion.

None of this changes the price of Cheddar cheese in Texas, but I find it to be an interesting dynamic.

my .02

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I appreciate everyone's thoughts on the subject, it has been very helpful

 

[Danny T]

In many schools multiply training systems are taught and there certainly can be some crossover of terminology. I instruct Wing Chun, Muay Thai, Pekiti-Tirsia Kali, Boxing, and Tai Chi. We also provide instruction and training in BJJ, Shooto, Shorin Ryu and Shotokan. All of our members to date speak English (many speak other languages as well) so for the most part we use English. However, the Associations we belong to utilize specific terms for movements, positions, or techniques. therefore those members who wish to move up in the associations must learn the specific terms used. Wing Chun Association USA uses a large amt of Chinese terms, Thai Boxing Association USA use Thai terms, Pekiti-Tirsia International uses mostly English but there are numerous Illongo terms also. Being an instructor and ranked in many different arts I have several different terms that precede my name, Sifu, Guro, Khun Kru, Coach, yet I am known as Sifu in all of the classes. Many of our instructors are highly ranked in multiple arts as well and they also are known by different titles. We have Mr., Professor, Sensei, Sifu, Guro, Kru, Coach, Sihing, This being the case there happens to be quite a bit of cross over of the many different terminologies employed.

 

[clfsean]

Eh I speak Cantonese when I teach because Choy Li Fut is a Chinese Martial Art from Southern China where Cantonese is (used to be anyway) the language spoken where it was created. There are terms and concepts that transliterated to English loose something and when I say "yum chaap", my students know exactly what it is. If I say "twisted punch", well which way is the twist? Up, down, in, out, etc... Yum Chaap is Yum Chaap, no questions in what's going on.

Besides that there's more to just "hands on" being taught by me. I teach the culture and tradition of CLF & southern CMAs.