R
Rob_Broad
Guest
Have events like UFC and Pride hurt or helped the martial arts. Please post the reason for your answer.
They have brought about a new trend Grappeling.
If the events where what they claimed to be it would be one thing but the claim to br NO holds barred. They then have rules on what can be and can not be used but normaly don't tell the public about these restrictions.
Have they helped the martial arts I really don't know. I don't watch them. If they really had top karate people and top judo, akido,etc. it would be one thing what they have is something totaly diffrent.IMHO
Shadow
If the events where what they claimed to be it would be one thing but the claim to br NO holds barred. They then have rules on what can be and can not be used but normaly don't tell the public about these restrictions.
Have they helped the martial arts I really don't know. I don't watch them. If they really had top karate people and top judo, akido,etc. it would be one thing what they have is something totaly diffrent.IMHO
Shadow
OP
fist of fury
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #3
I think they've helped a little in that fact that it helped open alot of M.A'ist eyes that some have wek ground skills. OTOH I think it has given grappeling too much credit with the myth that %90 of all fights go to the ground. And people like Tank abbott who has no fight training that I know of but is just a good brawler can still kick your @ss no matter how much training you have.
I saw the first UFC at a sports bar with my instructor, fellow students, and a couple of good (non-martial artist) friends. Everybody thought it made a farce of the martial arts. My non-martial artist friends were appalled that I was studying something like that...it took some explaining to ensure them that what they saw at the UFC was most definitely not what I studied.
I watched a few more in later years, hoping to see some improvement. There was some, but not enough to justify my supporting it by buying the pay-per-view time.
Cthulhu
I watched a few more in later years, hoping to see some improvement. There was some, but not enough to justify my supporting it by buying the pay-per-view time.
Cthulhu
OP
Icepick
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #5
Honestly, this is a little bizarre to me... how does actual fighting make a "farce" of martial arts? Who are the "top karate guys" that aren't fighting? Christophe Leininger was an alternate on the 1996 Olympic Judo team. He is a tough guy, and had some good fights, but he is not a top NHB fighter.
Matt Thornton talks about this stuff much more eloquently than I can, so I will just link his comments and let the doo-doo storm start.
Straight blast gym
Matt Thornton talks about this stuff much more eloquently than I can, so I will just link his comments and let the doo-doo storm start.
Straight blast gym
fist of fury posted:
"And people like Tank abbott who has no fight training that I know of but is just a good brawler can still kick your @ss no matter how much training you have."
If that's all the public got out of the UFC then you are way ahead. The UFC was a reality check for alot of martial artists who hide in the traditional world and don't realize how different self-defense is from the dojo.
Do I think the guys who practice for NHB are incredibly dangerous?
Hell yes!
Do I think I would stand much of a chance against any of the top competitors?
Uh, NO!
Does this mean that I have something to learn form them?
The answer is YES!
Lamont
"And people like Tank abbott who has no fight training that I know of but is just a good brawler can still kick your @ss no matter how much training you have."
If that's all the public got out of the UFC then you are way ahead. The UFC was a reality check for alot of martial artists who hide in the traditional world and don't realize how different self-defense is from the dojo.
Do I think the guys who practice for NHB are incredibly dangerous?
Hell yes!
Do I think I would stand much of a chance against any of the top competitors?
Uh, NO!
Does this mean that I have something to learn form them?
The answer is YES!
Lamont
Turner
Blue Belt
While I was in the military (just a couple of years back) I had a few friends who had the weekend off and so they rented the first 10 UFCs from blockbuster and bought lots of beer(whatta combination) and prepared to settle in for the night. They knew I was into the martial arts and so they invited me to join them. Now, I sorta live in my own little world, so I had no idea what it was all about. It was a total suprise and definately an eye-opener. Especially when one of them got a little too inebriated and tackled me and I didn't have any real idea of what to do. I'd learned plenty of bits and pieces of Jujitsu (Goshin and BJJ) but didn't know how to put them together and make them usable.
I am very thankful for the UFC and am training so that I can do that type of competition at least on an amatuer level. That level of intensity and the need for such a broad base of knowledge was what I had been looking for. My ground game still isn't what it should be, but I moved into a new town about a year ago and just recently learned that two Purple belts teach BJJ at the same school where I teach and so I will be taking off my black belt and putting back on my white belt and scrubbing the mats with them as often as I can.
I am very thankful for the UFC and am training so that I can do that type of competition at least on an amatuer level. That level of intensity and the need for such a broad base of knowledge was what I had been looking for. My ground game still isn't what it should be, but I moved into a new town about a year ago and just recently learned that two Purple belts teach BJJ at the same school where I teach and so I will be taking off my black belt and putting back on my white belt and scrubbing the mats with them as often as I can.
OP
Chiduce
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #8
Has the UFC helped the martial arts community? Yes, it has and i agree that it was an eye opener for those whom were hidding behind untested, unproved methods which would not work in real life! The UFC is possibly the closest fight to the real thing that exists today. The factors of environment are just restricted to the squared circle. In real life one will have more options to choose from. There is no tapping out and the reality of possible serious injury and/or death is evident. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!
Turner
Blue Belt
I am a fan of NHB. I love watching it and I can't wait to experience it. But calling it a 'Reality check' is giving it a little too much credit. Sure it showed that a good wrestler or Jujitsu guy could whip up on a Stand-up guy who had no ground experience and groundfighting is something that all arts who claim to be self defense should have. But NHB is nothing like a real fight. I've been in quite a few scrapes and have seen tons more, I've only been in two fights that went to the ground to finish the fight and haven't seen any others that did. I wasn't taken there by a well executed throw or a tackle. It was because one of us tripped on the other and it turned into a half tackle. The JJ guys are right though, fights normally end with on the ground because one guy uses his fists or feet to beat the snot out of the other and drive his beaten body to the ground where he is curled in a little ball whimpering with pain. Even if he knew BJJ he couldn't do nothing because he was already a whimpering bloody mess.
If you want reality, go to NYC or LA and pick a fight with a gangster. However, if you want a contest of skill where you can test your heart and ability to adapt, NHB is the place to go. If you want to see what skills you've developed good and which ones you need to work on some more, the NHB is the place to go. But don't think that it is anything like the real thing. The guys that do MMA/NHB are great althletes. I say athletes because that is what they are. They play a sport. They abide by rules and are able to develop strategy and tactics based on what the other has known to do in the past. You can't do that on the street. In the ring you'll feel adrenaline and fear, but you know you're somewhat safe because if things get rough you can tap. In the street tapping just isn't going to work and so your adrenaline and fear shoot through the roof sometimes making you forget everything you've learned. Training in the class or playing the sport isn't going to prepare you for that. I've noticed that mine has quieted quite a bit so that when the potential for conflict arises I'm able to control it so that I almost get eager for the guy to make a move (Ok, so thats bad, but its true), but the adrenaline is nothing that can be described until you experience it.
NHB is a game. Its something you play. I don't know why I've seen so many people against it because its not that brutal. You can tap out whenever you get hurt or too tired. Its not like boxing where you continue to get your head beat in for 5 more rounds even though you've been stumbling around without a clue whats going on. Its not like football where you have 400 pound guys leaping at you and knocking you out of the air so that you land on your head. To the best of my knowledge, there have been no deaths or really serious injuries to a NHB/MMA player. Almost every other sport has. The difference is the level of respect for each other and the ability to quit with dignity when you feel you can't go on.
If you want reality, go to NYC or LA and pick a fight with a gangster. However, if you want a contest of skill where you can test your heart and ability to adapt, NHB is the place to go. If you want to see what skills you've developed good and which ones you need to work on some more, the NHB is the place to go. But don't think that it is anything like the real thing. The guys that do MMA/NHB are great althletes. I say athletes because that is what they are. They play a sport. They abide by rules and are able to develop strategy and tactics based on what the other has known to do in the past. You can't do that on the street. In the ring you'll feel adrenaline and fear, but you know you're somewhat safe because if things get rough you can tap. In the street tapping just isn't going to work and so your adrenaline and fear shoot through the roof sometimes making you forget everything you've learned. Training in the class or playing the sport isn't going to prepare you for that. I've noticed that mine has quieted quite a bit so that when the potential for conflict arises I'm able to control it so that I almost get eager for the guy to make a move (Ok, so thats bad, but its true), but the adrenaline is nothing that can be described until you experience it.
NHB is a game. Its something you play. I don't know why I've seen so many people against it because its not that brutal. You can tap out whenever you get hurt or too tired. Its not like boxing where you continue to get your head beat in for 5 more rounds even though you've been stumbling around without a clue whats going on. Its not like football where you have 400 pound guys leaping at you and knocking you out of the air so that you land on your head. To the best of my knowledge, there have been no deaths or really serious injuries to a NHB/MMA player. Almost every other sport has. The difference is the level of respect for each other and the ability to quit with dignity when you feel you can't go on.
OP
fist of fury
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #10
Beside how often are you going to run into a good fighter or even a well trained one. I'm not saying it's never going to happen. NHB is a good wake up call but I still don't think it holds all of the answers. It just proves some people are better fighters than others.
IMHO
I have lived and walked the gang invested steets of the LA area, When I was a teen I wold walkthe combat zone of Boston, nd I have got lost in NY and endd up in areas where I should not have been. The kids and youg adults and adults fight in these areas for all they are worth and if you go to the ground there going to gouge your eyes out, stab you with broken glass, or just stomp you like your a mud puddle.They dont ply by rules they fight for survival, so do not call a sport NO Holds Barred when you have rules.
The UFC, and all other NHB events are as stated befor sport that allow grappling and floor work But they do not allow eye gouges groin stikes or pulls you cant jump on a guys ar or leg to break it. Yes they show us another aspect of the arts But do you see any Seals, or Special Forces people competing.NO because they realy go NO HOLDS BARRED.
Now I have practiced witha few of the NHB people admittitly they may not have been the NAMES but they where damn good. Would I want to compet against them on with their rules maybe not at my present age(20 years ago Hell Yes). Would I be afraidof the in the street No I play by a different set of rules in Real life.
Are these people (NHB) good at whay they do Sure.
only my feelings Rename it restriced ground fighting assocation and I'll watch.
Shadow
:soapbox:
I have lived and walked the gang invested steets of the LA area, When I was a teen I wold walkthe combat zone of Boston, nd I have got lost in NY and endd up in areas where I should not have been. The kids and youg adults and adults fight in these areas for all they are worth and if you go to the ground there going to gouge your eyes out, stab you with broken glass, or just stomp you like your a mud puddle.They dont ply by rules they fight for survival, so do not call a sport NO Holds Barred when you have rules.
The UFC, and all other NHB events are as stated befor sport that allow grappling and floor work But they do not allow eye gouges groin stikes or pulls you cant jump on a guys ar or leg to break it. Yes they show us another aspect of the arts But do you see any Seals, or Special Forces people competing.NO because they realy go NO HOLDS BARRED.
Now I have practiced witha few of the NHB people admittitly they may not have been the NAMES but they where damn good. Would I want to compet against them on with their rules maybe not at my present age(20 years ago Hell Yes). Would I be afraidof the in the street No I play by a different set of rules in Real life.
Are these people (NHB) good at whay they do Sure.
only my feelings Rename it restriced ground fighting assocation and I'll watch.
Shadow
:soapbox:
:soapbox:
Because I have started My mouth flapping let me at I have seen the same type of fighting on PLaygrounds by kids who had no idea what they where dong other than trying to hurt one another.
And I have seen bar fights that ended in the street with more verried technique. In both cases kicks to the groin, pokes to the eyes bitting took place
Ok I'll stop:soapbox:
As stated befor these are only my insights and reasos for not supporting NHB events
Shadow:asian:
Because I have started My mouth flapping let me at I have seen the same type of fighting on PLaygrounds by kids who had no idea what they where dong other than trying to hurt one another.
And I have seen bar fights that ended in the street with more verried technique. In both cases kicks to the groin, pokes to the eyes bitting took place
Ok I'll stop:soapbox:
As stated befor these are only my insights and reasos for not supporting NHB events
Shadow:asian:
OP
Icepick
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #13
I don't understand why people assume that an NHB fighter doesn't know how to eyepoke? If I can hit you in the nose with my jab, it doesn't take a genius to open my fist and poke you in the eyes, whether or not I can perform the Biu Gee! If I can consistently dump you on your head with a throw from Greco-Roman or Judo, I will not be the one laying in broken glass. If I can mount you and you cannot escape, who is in the better position to bite?
Obviously, NHB/MMA is a sport, and does not carry the life or death element, or dangerous environments (concrete, weapons, etc.), but if anyone here has found a more effective way to train and test real fighting skills, I'd love to hear about it.
Btw, I believe that IVC Vale Tudo in Brazil is genuine NHB, but it's not a real fight, because nobody throws poisoned daggers into the cage for the competitors, or lines the mat with broken bottles.
Obviously, NHB/MMA is a sport, and does not carry the life or death element, or dangerous environments (concrete, weapons, etc.), but if anyone here has found a more effective way to train and test real fighting skills, I'd love to hear about it.
Btw, I believe that IVC Vale Tudo in Brazil is genuine NHB, but it's not a real fight, because nobody throws poisoned daggers into the cage for the competitors, or lines the mat with broken bottles.
OP
fist of fury
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #14
What! no poisoned daggers what a rip offOriginally posted by Icepick
Btw, I believe that IVC Vale Tudo in Brazil is genuine NHB, but it's not a real fight, because nobody throws poisoned daggers into the cage for the competitors, or lines the mat with broken bottles.
OP
Chiduce
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #15
I hung out on the streets of LA myself. Theres's a lot of crime an theft on the LA streets. Did you ever hang out on 6th and San Julian? Now that was an eye opener! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce.
Not familar with that address. However (i not proud of this) I wasn't in shape sometimes to remember any street name. did see a lot of the projects while "escorting" pople on some of their buiness trips to the area. I wasn't always the saint I am now.LOL
did have to drive the ambulence into watts and into the projects in Long beach on a regular bases, And would walk through parts of Santa Anna (little Sigon , and through 15th st. ) on a regular bases.
Some nasty people between Disneyland and Knotts also. The SOS, la Colonia, Cripts, Bloods, Actualy about 30 gangs between the two . I lived exactly
1/2 way between at Gilbert and Ball.
You learn to know when the gangs are at war just by what their wearing and the way they walk. The Phone company took out a pay phone near my place after the 4th shooting there in a month ( they got tired of reparing it.
Shadow
did have to drive the ambulence into watts and into the projects in Long beach on a regular bases, And would walk through parts of Santa Anna (little Sigon , and through 15th st. ) on a regular bases.
Some nasty people between Disneyland and Knotts also. The SOS, la Colonia, Cripts, Bloods, Actualy about 30 gangs between the two . I lived exactly
1/2 way between at Gilbert and Ball.
You learn to know when the gangs are at war just by what their wearing and the way they walk. The Phone company took out a pay phone near my place after the 4th shooting there in a month ( they got tired of reparing it.
Shadow
OP
Shinzu
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #17
in my opinion i am not a big fan of the NHB. did it do the MA commuinty some good by giving it exposure? yes.
do i thnk it is necessary? no. just like i don't agree boxing is a good sport. watching people beat on each other purposely is not my idea of a civil sport. nor does the world need more violence.
the martial arts was not intended to be used for this type of brutal money maker. i think many art founders would be dissapointed to see their students using the art that they helped cultivate in a way such as this.
sorry if i am the outcast but i am against it. there are other ways to expose people to the martial arts.
do i thnk it is necessary? no. just like i don't agree boxing is a good sport. watching people beat on each other purposely is not my idea of a civil sport. nor does the world need more violence.
the martial arts was not intended to be used for this type of brutal money maker. i think many art founders would be dissapointed to see their students using the art that they helped cultivate in a way such as this.
sorry if i am the outcast but i am against it. there are other ways to expose people to the martial arts.
First off, I'm a fan. I enjoy watching the fights. I saw the first UFC's back when high school wrestling was the closest I got to martial arts (you mean I could just choke someone from this position? Fun!). Been a fan ever since, even if they did get a little boring for a while there.
My problem, like shadowchaser, is with the name. It's not No Holds Barred, so don't call it that. There are rules. I don't have a problem with the rules, they are there for the protection of the fighters. I think the rules are important if people would like to see the sport become more popular. But call it Mixed Martial Arts. Call it Vale Tudo. Call it Punchin', Kickin', and Wrasslin' for all I care, but for goodness sakes don't call it NHB. It just isn't.
My problem, like shadowchaser, is with the name. It's not No Holds Barred, so don't call it that. There are rules. I don't have a problem with the rules, they are there for the protection of the fighters. I think the rules are important if people would like to see the sport become more popular. But call it Mixed Martial Arts. Call it Vale Tudo. Call it Punchin', Kickin', and Wrasslin' for all I care, but for goodness sakes don't call it NHB. It just isn't.
OP
Kirk
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #19
I'm of the opinion that those making these NHB's are in it for
the reason of making money, and to promote their own style.
Rules apply to give their style the specific edge. They should
call it Gracie Fighting Championship.
OP
Rob_Broad
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #20
I believe these events have actually hurt the martial arts. many a time I have had someone walk into the school and say the want to fight like they do on the UFC. When I tell them that is just extreme sport karate, they think I am full of crap. These guys making all this money off these events should explain to people that it is still a sport and on the street a lot of the stuff used there would get you hurt.
Many people try and start clubs to fight like this and with out proper trining and supervision people get hurt and the media points their fingers at the martial arts community. This stuff should have the proper warnings not some little ad tag across the screen once during the opening credits. Peopel don't think how dangerous it is to grapple in an alley or in an uneven fight.
Many people try and start clubs to fight like this and with out proper trining and supervision people get hurt and the media points their fingers at the martial arts community. This stuff should have the proper warnings not some little ad tag across the screen once during the opening credits. Peopel don't think how dangerous it is to grapple in an alley or in an uneven fight.
