Terminology troubles

Rough Rider

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Guys, I need your help. I've been training in TKD for 6 years now and form the start, some basic Korean terms have been a part of the curriculum. About a year ago, I became really interested in the Korean language and started researching online to learn terminology beyond what was being taught at my school. To my dismay, I learned that much of what is being taught at my school is either poorly translated, badly misspelled, mispronounced, or just plain wrong. If you read some of my older posts, you will see some examples of what I'm talking about.

Now, Here's my dilemma: How should I approach my Grand-master about this? I have a great deal of respect for him, both as a Martial Artist and as a person. The last thing I want to do is to hurt or insult him.

Also, before I say anything, I want to have all of my ducks in a row. I want to be absolutely sure that what I think is wrong actually is wrong. I know that there are some Korean language experts on this board, so I'm going to list examples for feedback.

There is one other thing that I should mention. My Grand-master is hard of hearing. When he learned TKD, there was no internet to look things up, so if he mis-heard a word or phrase, there is a good chance that it just stuck with him incorrectly for years. Then when he opened his own school and wrote things down, he probably just spelled them as he remembered hearing them.

Anyway, let's start with these: Kimo Jasi- Horseback stance Kiro Jasi- Fighting stance
The Kukkiwon's preferred terms are Juchum seogi and Gyeoruji Junbi. My research has revealed that Tang Soo Do schools tend to use Gima Jase for Horseback stance, so this is probably just a poor spelling/pronunciation of that. I cannot, however, find any reference anywhere that comes anywhere close to Kiro Jasi for fighting stance. The TSD web sites that list Gima Jase for horseback stance use Hu Kul Jase for fighting stance.
 

serietah

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The spelling is going to vary because Korean doesn't use the Latin alphabet. Romanization isn't exact. It's just approximating the sounds.
Edit to add sorry if you already know this lol. Just thought I'd go for the easiest explanation first.
 

Dirty Dog

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You may find that nobody in the system cares for or about your corrections.
When your instructor started training, it's entirely possible that the "incorrect" terms were what he was taught. Because there is more than one possible term for an awful lot of the stances/techniques we use in TKD. And they're all correct.
And, too, there's cultural inertia. If a given term has been used within a system long enough, you're going to be fighting an uphill battle to change it. And is it worth it?
Here's an example:
In our school, people have called the lead instructor "Sabumnim" pretty much forever, and all others "Sabum"... now, this isn't correct, since "nim" is an honorific, and using Sabum without the honorific implies a lack of respect. The "correct" term for an assistant instructor are Busabumnim or Kyosanim (among others...). But is it worth the trouble it would take to change?
 

Tez3

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In our school, people have called the lead instructor "Sabumnim" pretty much forever, and all others "Sabum"... now, this isn't correct, since "nim" is an honorific, and using Sabum without the honorific implies a lack of respect.

I imagine that while it implies lack of respect plenty is actually given and to my mind that's the important bit.
Most languages are like English in that there's a standard such as Received Pronunciation ( the way the Queen speaks also known as BBC English) and then there's how everyone else speaks, with local variations, accents, dialects and slang, I doubt Korean is any different. As long as everybody knows what is meant does it really matter? My other half being from Yorkshire says 'watter' for water, I don't, it causes no confusion, we both know what the other means, I bet that it's exactly the same when training too, everyone knows what the instructor means, what's more important, training or pronunciation?
 

Dirty Dog

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I imagine that while it implies lack of respect plenty is actually given and to my mind that's the important bit.

Oh absolutely. None of us (in our school) are native Korean speakers or even close to fluent. As in, other than the basic terms they hear in class, I don't think anybody other than me speaks any Korean at all (again, just within our school - our KJN is a native speaker). There's no disrespect, it's just how they've always used the terms, since long before I started with the MDK.
 
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Rough Rider

Rough Rider

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When your instructor started training, it's entirely possible that the "incorrect" terms were what he was taught. Because there is more than one possible term for an awful lot of the stances/techniques we use in TKD. And they're all correct.

That's a good point. That's also why I'm posting here, to tap into all of the experience you all have. I just might learn that some of these terms have been used elsewhere. So, have you ever heard of Kiro Jasi, or anything similar to it?
 

KangTsai

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Guys, I need your help. I've been training in TKD for 6 years now and form the start, some basic Korean terms have been a part of the curriculum. About a year ago, I became really interested in the Korean language and started researching online to learn terminology beyond what was being taught at my school. To my dismay, I learned that much of what is being taught at my school is either poorly translated, badly misspelled, mispronounced, or just plain wrong. If you read some of my older posts, you will see some examples of what I'm talking about.

Now, Here's my dilemma: How should I approach my Grand-master about this? I have a great deal of respect for him, both as a Martial Artist and as a person. The last thing I want to do is to hurt or insult him.

Also, before I say anything, I want to have all of my ducks in a row. I want to be absolutely sure that what I think is wrong actually is wrong. I know that there are some Korean language experts on this board, so I'm going to list examples for feedback.

There is one other thing that I should mention. My Grand-master is hard of hearing. When he learned TKD, there was no internet to look things up, so if he mis-heard a word or phrase, there is a good chance that it just stuck with him incorrectly for years. Then when he opened his own school and wrote things down, he probably just spelled them as he remembered hearing them.

Anyway, let's start with these: Kimo Jasi- Horseback stance Kiro Jasi- Fighting stance
The Kukkiwon's preferred terms are Juchum seogi and Gyeoruji Junbi. My research has revealed that Tang Soo Do schools tend to use Gima Jase for Horseback stance, so this is probably just a poor spelling/pronunciation of that. I cannot, however, find any reference anywhere that comes anywhere close to Kiro Jasi for fighting stance. The TSD web sites that list Gima Jase for horseback stance use Hu Kul Jase for fighting stance.
You've found the person! I was about to have a twitching seizure if I didn't correct some Korean! Just kidding.

FOR the horse stance, 'gima jase/篣圉(撉撽)' is correct.
'juchum seogi/鴥潰隊篣' means 'staggered standing.' I've never heard the term be used.
'gyeorugi junbi/窶刺ㄗ篣 鴗赬' means 'sparring preparation,' so that depends on context.

As for your instructor, I'd say just learn correctly for yourself and take your mind off him.
 

KangTsai

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That's a good point. That's also why I'm posting here, to tap into all of the experience you all have. I just might learn that some of these terms have been used elsewhere. So, have you ever heard of Kiro Jasi, or anything similar to it?
If that was romanised correctly, it means nothing.
 

KangTsai

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I imagine that while it implies lack of respect plenty is actually given and to my mind that's the important bit.
Most languages are like English in that there's a standard such as Received Pronunciation ( the way the Queen speaks also known as BBC English) and then there's how everyone else speaks, with local variations, accents, dialects and slang, I doubt Korean is any different. As long as everybody knows what is meant does it really matter? My other half being from Yorkshire says 'watter' for water, I don't, it causes no confusion, we both know what the other means, I bet that it's exactly the same when training too, everyone knows what the instructor means, what's more important, training or pronunciation?
There are several dialects in Korean, but pronounciations of words never change. Instead, different dialects are characterised by suffix manneurisms, intonation and outright different volcabulary. No accent is percieved as necessarily impolite, but many less... 'proffesional,' is the word. However this does not apply to how honourifics are used in any way. Good speculation though.
 

KangTsai

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The spelling is going to vary because Korean doesn't use the Latin alphabet. Romanization isn't exact. It's just approximating the sounds.
Edit to add sorry if you already know this lol. Just thought I'd go for the easiest explanation first.
Korean is very hard to romanise accurately. Example: the difference between , , and . They can all be romanised as 'e,' but they all have different sounds.

EDIT: and can be romanised 'ye,' as in , which means Jesus.
 
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Rough Rider

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'juchum seogi/鴥潰隊篣' means 'staggered standing.' I've never heard the term be used.
It's actually quite common in Kukkiwon style schools in the U.S.
As for your instructor, I'd say just learn correctly for yourself and take your mind off him.
I've been doing that for now, but it's been difficult. You see, it's not that he just uses these terms in class- it's part of the curriculum. We're actually tested on it. Although I'm not an instructor, as a 2nd Dan, I'm expected to help train the lower belts. It makes me feel dishonest to say "Pa Chigi" means palm strike now that I know that the Korean word for "palm" is batang. (I know, I haven't gotten to that one yet)
If that was romanised correctly, it means nothing.
re: Kiro Jasi What about something close to it, like Kira Jase or Gira Jase? He might made the same mistake as he did with Kimo/Gima.
 
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Rough Rider

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Here are a few more:
Pa Chigi - Palm Strike as mentioned above, I now know this should be Batang son Chigi. Has anyone ever heard "Pa" used in this context?

Poosay Pa Chigi - Open hand face block with palm strike
Poosay Mo Chigi - Open hand face block with neck chop

First of all, let's be adults about the first word, shall we? OK, these are what we use in place of Jebi Pum Teok Chigi and Jebi Pum Mok Chigi. On the first one, he's obviously using his word for "palm" instead of "jaw". On the second, he simply dropped the "k" from Mok. But what about "Poosay"? Is that a Korean word?
 

KangTsai

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It makes me feel dishonest to say "Pa Chigi" means palm strike now that I know that the Korean word for "palm" is batang. (I know, I haven't gotten to that one yet)
Oh boy. 'pachigi/儦篣' means absolutely nothing. 諻 means background but apparently it is correct in this context. Palm actually is 諻.
re: Kiro Jasi What about something close to it, like Kira Jase or Gira Jase? He might made the same mistake as he did with Kimo/Gima.
I'm sorry, but those don't mean anyhing either. This might be getting slightly out of hand.
 
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KangTsai

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Here are a few more:
Pa Chigi - Palm Strike as mentioned above, I now know this should be Batang son Chigi. Has anyone ever heard "Pa" used in this context?

Poosay Pa Chigi - Open hand face block with palm strike
Poosay Mo Chigi - Open hand face block with neck chop

First of all, let's be adults about the first word, shall we? OK, these are what we use in place of Jebi Pum Teok Chigi and Jebi Pum Mok Chigi. On the first one, he's obviously using his word for "palm" instead of "jaw". On the second, he simply dropped the "k" from Mok. But what about "Poosay"? Is that a Korean word?

(Answered out of order)

1) that should be 'batangsonteokchigi/諻桿篣.'
2)The only way 'pa' would make sense is if it were as in the Chinese character 瘥, which means destroy. I just looked at the KKW website for vocab and they do not use it anywhere. Not a word.
3) 'Poosay' means nothing
4) 'mok chigi' not 'mo chigi': dropping K is very very wrong
5) 'SONteok' not 'PUMteok' does not mean palm, but it specifically refers to the wrist joint under the palm
6) 'jebi pum teok chigi' is very wrong. I think you mean 'aguisonchigi/篞儦篣.'
7) after that one, you probably mean 'aguimokchigi/篞諈拖篣.'

I never thought it would be this severe with your instructor/school. I'm happy to correct every single piece of Korean you've learned, because it's clearly flawed.
 
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Rough Rider

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To be clear "Jebi Pum Teok Chagi" and "Jebi Pum Mok Chagi" are not used at my school. I found those terms in the Kukkiwon dictionary and included them here to describe what techniques I was talking about when I said "Poosay Pa Chagi" and "Poosay Mo Chagi".
 

andyjeffries

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FOR the horse stance, 'gima jase/篣圉(撉撽)' is correct.
'juchum seogi/鴥潰隊篣' means 'staggered standing.' I've never heard the term be used.

It's used on the Kukkiwon Master Instructor Course, Poom/Dan Examiner Course and on the official Kukkiwon Technical Terminology guide. It's the correct current term.

Screen Shot 2016-10-24 at 11.04.14.png
 

oftheherd1

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Korean is very hard to romanise accurately. Example: the difference between , , and . They can all be romanised as 'e,' but they all have different sounds.

EDIT: and can be romanised 'ye,' as in , which means Jesus.

I had to work on those, but got them, mostly. The ones I had most trouble with were the double consonants. But you are correct on Romanization. I remember reading the first time I was there that there were some 12 'major' romanizations, with only 3 or 4 being most used.

Not that I speak Korean. I was learning, and had trouble with the inflections as well, but working on it. Then I left Korea and came back to the US, and met my wife. Everytime I tried to impress her by speaking Korean, she would laugh. It turns out I was speaking Korean with a very pronounced Chung Chon (or Cheong) Nam Do accent. Anyway, her English was so good I just quit trying. I figured I wouldn't be likely to go back anyway, but we went twice more. My bad.
 
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Rough Rider

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Here are today's questionable terms:

Wayson Momtang Mahki - Single Mountain Block. For some reason, he seems to have dropped the last syllable off of "Wesanteul". Also, the "Momtong" seems unnecessary.

Dan Ti Dolla Chagi - Spin Heel Kick. This is probably my worst example. The only thing I can figure is that the hearing trouble came into play and he misheard "Bandae Dollyo"
 

KangTsai

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Here are today's questionable terms:

Wayson Momtang Mahki - Single Mountain Block. For some reason, he seems to have dropped the last syllable off of "Wesanteul". Also, the "Momtong" seems unnecessary.

Dan Ti Dolla Chagi - Spin Heel Kick. This is probably my worst example. The only thing I can figure is that the hearing trouble came into play and he misheard "Bandae Dollyo"
1) should be '_SAN momtong makgi.' Momtong just means torso.
2) doesn't mean anything. You can say 'dolyeohudyochagi/欠木馬篣.' By the way the reason I wrote 'hudyo' instead of 'huryo' is because you roll the r.
 

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