Doubt! Stepping forward in front stance (KKW)

[sopraisso]

Hi everyone.
I've been reading something lately that made me confused about how to propper stepping forward in advanced front stance (apkubi seogi).
Firstly, in my school I don't remember having been teached in a very precise way how to step forward under advanced front stance. The method there usually is just a "see me doing and then do the same" thing, and when we're doing something clearly wrong, we get corrected. I've even asked my instructor about this previously, but he answered in a not completely understandable way (which sometimes it's just the way he likes answering), so I can't be sure now if I'm making it proppely according to Kukkiwon standards.
My exact doubt is about doing a kind of "half moon" pattern when stepping forwards under apkubi seogi stance -- or not doing the pattern. I've been doing that kind of stepping for a long time, and it seems natural to me, because I come from a stance where feet are horizontaly far (just a bit, like one foot or shoulder width), and when the back foot crosses the front one, they become very close, side by side, and then, when the moving foot advances, they go back to the original horizontal distance (having come some months ago to 1st geup, I've never been corrected so far by my instructor when doing that). I've learned shotokan karate previously to Kukkiwon Taekwondo and it was just the way I learned to do it as well. But recentely I read somewhere that Kukkiwon no longer teached to step that way. But I just don't know what's the difference now.
So I'd be of great help to have people's words on this subject, and so I can learn how to propperly step forward according to current Kukkiwon standards.
Thanks in advance.

Sérgio

 

[msmitht]

Hi everyone.
I've been reading something lately that made me confused about how to propper stepping forward in advanced front stance (apkubi seogi).
Firstly, in my school I don't remember having been teached in a very precise way how to step forward under advanced front stance. The method there usually is just a "see me doing and then do the same" thing, and when we're doing something clearly wrong, we get corrected. I've even asked my instructor about this previously, but he answered in a not completely understandable way (which sometimes it's just the way he likes answering), so I can't be sure now if I'm making it proppely according to Kukkiwon standards.
My exact doubt is about doing a kind of "half moon" pattern when stepping forwards under apkubi seogi stance -- or not doing the pattern. I've been doing that kind of stepping for a long time, and it seems natural to me, because I come from a stance where feet are horizontaly far (just a bit, like one foot or shoulder width), and when the back foot crosses the front one, they become very close, side by side, and then, when the moving foot advances, they go back to the original horizontal distance (having come some months ago to 1st geup, I've never been corrected so far by my instructor when doing that). I've learned shotokan karate previously to Kukkiwon Taekwondo and it was just the way I learned to do it as well. But recentely I read somewhere that Kukkiwon no longer teached to step that way. But I just don't know what's the difference now.
So I'd be of great help to have people's words on this subject, and so I can learn how to propperly step forward according to current Kukkiwon standards.
Thanks in advance.
Sérgio

no half moon step for kkw tkd. Ive been to 3 master courses including one at the kkw and the step into.apkubi is straight forward. You pivot your rear heel inwards a little at the end. Should have one-two fists in between horizontally.

 

[ETinCYQX]

We used to use the "half moon step" in our two basic forms, which were actually Taikyoku Shodan and Nidan from Shotokan Karate. We still use those forms but KKW stances and standards applied.

The KKW method is a straight step. Hips and shoulders stay forward.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The half moon step is common in non-KKW TKD. We teach it along with the palgwe forms in our Moo Duk Kwan school, but not with the Taegeuk forms. The wider and narrower front stances both have their place, but they're not interchangable.

Incidentially, there's no such thing as 'apkubi seogi'... Ap Kubi is the long front stance, Ap Seogi is the walking stance, AKA upright front stance.

 

[ETinCYQX]

We used to use a square long stance (Ap Kubi). Now it's barely as wide as a foot. When we were doing the half moon step, we were still a Park's school.

It's pretty common in Shotokan too from what I can see.

 

[Tez3]

We used to use a square long stance (Ap Kubi). Now it's barely as wide as a foot. When we were doing the half moon step, we were still a Park's school.

It's pretty common in Shotokan too from what I can see.

I'm curious now, has anyone got a video? I'm not good at picking up things from descriptions, even worse at describing them.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I'm curious now, has anyone got a video? I'm not good at picking up things from descriptions, even worse at describing them.

His steps in his long stance. This was the first example I've found

 

[ETinCYQX]

Maybe this is a better example, Tez.

Taikyoku Shodan:

Taikyoku Nidan:

 

[Tez3]

Thank you for that. That's more or less the same as the Wado Ryu Pinan Nidan give or take a couple of movements, he's stepping into Junzukidachi to start It's one of the Zenkutsudachi (front stances).

The 'half moon' bit I don't get though. In Wado we did it as a straight step, there is a circular type step into a another Zenkutsudachi called Gykazukidachi which has different feet placement but is still a front stance.

 

[Dirty Dog]

There are lots of ways to move forward, and there are good reasons that can (and have) been put forth by proponents of each.
Just stepping forward in a front stance (Ap Kubi, the long front stance, not Ap Seogi) for example.
Do you move the foot straight, or in a crescent? Does the head go up and down or do you flex the knees to keep it at a constant level? End in a narrow (Kukkiwon) stance, or wide (Moo Duk Kwan)?
This is all primarily applicable to forms, since it would be insane to claim that any one is "the" way to move in combat.

 

[sopraisso]

Hey! You all have given me some great reference on this subject. Now my confusion is definetely solved. It is also good to know how it is done in other branches of TKD and in other karate styles as well. To me it is a really interesting subject, and I'd even enjoy to go deeper into the reasons for performing the step in each way.

Incidentially, there's no such thing as 'apkubi seogi'... Ap Kubi is the long front stance, Ap Seogi is the walking stance, AKA upright front stance.

In fact, I really never learned of "apkubi seogi" (and they don't call it like that at my school). But previously to writing my question I searched Kukkiwon website for any kinds of "official" names (once there are differente names in different places) to make myself better understandable. Funnily I thought of having seen something like "apkubi seogi" written there, and used just the mistaken name! Anyway, I always asked myself why apkubi would be "apkubi seogi" as well as the others (with the only other stance with no "seogi" being dwitkubi, according to Kukkiwon website). Curiously, I haven't used the "official translation" (forward inflection stance) either, because I was more used to reading "advanced front stance" or just "front stance" (as opposed to short front stance or walking stance). In my country most schools only use korean names (adapted, though, to Portuguese spelling).

 

[Tez3]

When I did Wado Ryu we did a lot of courses so met quite a few instructors, we used the Japanese terms for stances, instructions etc and sometimes it was hard to know what was we were being told because the Japanese would be pronounced according to the instructor's local accent! To this day I don't think I know what the actual Japanese words are when pronounced properly by a Japanese person but then I'm guessing the Japanese have accents too.

 

[sopraisso]

One interesting thing that just came up to me now is that in my school, while it is not very clear (at least to me) whether we should perform the "half moon" step or the straight line one, most of other stances transitions are not teached to do in a straight line. Instead, our instructor tells us to bring feet together (example: taegeuk il jang from movement 4 to 5 (left ap seogi/mid level punch to left apkubi/arae makki (down block) followed by reverse punch). And now I wonder if that is according to Kukkiwon standards or maybe some kind of "ITF artifact" -- most older Kukkiwon Taekwondo schools in Brazil were originally ITF-filiated and then converted to Kukkiwon style, but a lot of ITF ways has clearly been held by some of those schools.
Under Kukkiwon standards, how should we do other transitions, like the one in the example, then?

 

[Earl Weiss]

........ or maybe some kind of "ITF artifact" -- most older Kukkiwon Taekwondo schools in Brazil were originally ITF-filiated and then converted to Kukkiwon style, but a lot of ITF ways has clearly been held by some of those schools.
Under Kukkiwon standards, how should we do other transitions, like the one in the example, then?

Absent from much of the discussion about the "HOW", is the "WHY". In the ITF the parallel ready stance (which is a fairly natural balanced stance) has the outside edges of the feet (Footsword) the same width as the shoulders. As you step into the ITF front (Walking Stance) the width is stipulated to be shoulders width measured from the center of each foot. (Center of Instep)
To step straight forward in this walking stance would not be natural and this type of motion where the intermediary position between steps is a neutral balanced position is oft repeated in Chang Hon pattern stepping. So, while it is great to know the "HOW' it is even better to know the "WHY".

 

[andyjeffries]

At the Kukkiwon World Taekwondo Leaders Forum this year the instructor demonstrated the WHY of the Kukki-Taekwondo Apkubi. He had someone take an ITF/Karate width long stance and the same side hand out in a punch position, punching forwards. Then he put his hand on the front of the fist and tried to push the person backwards. He easily managed it with just one hand pushing and no bodyweight, the guy was off balance. Then he had them take a narrower Kukkiwon stance and demonstrated the same thing and had to use two arms and bodyweight and then managed to lift the guys front foot rather than push him off balance.

The reasoning is that when you are striking/whatever forwards you want your power to be going forwards. Side to side stability is less important (and Kukki-Taekwondo shouldn't wobble in an apkubi so it's not "unstable") than correctly delivering your power forwards.

Just for comparison, the Kukkiwon defines naranhi seogi (parallel stance) as being one foot length apart with the feet parallel. It actually works out to a similar width to the ITF version (and that's how we used to describe it before learning the Kukkiwon definition) but it ends up being more consistent. A lot of clubs still use the shoulder width apart description, but then it's harder to gauge how wide your shoulders are when you can't see them and are looking down at the floor.

 

[Jaeimseu]

At the Kukkiwon World Taekwondo Leaders Forum this year the instructor demonstrated the WHY of the Kukki-Taekwondo Apkubi. He had someone take an ITF/Karate width long stance and the same side hand out in a punch position, punching forwards. Then he put his hand on the front of the fist and tried to push the person backwards. He easily managed it with just one hand pushing and no bodyweight, the guy was off balance. Then he had them take a narrower Kukkiwon stance and demonstrated the same thing and had to use two arms and bodyweight and then managed to lift the guys front foot rather than push him off balance.

The reasoning is that when you are striking/whatever forwards you want your power to be going forwards. Side to side stability is less important (and Kukki-Taekwondo shouldn't wobble in an apkubi so it's not "unstable") than correctly delivering your power forwards.

Just for comparison, the Kukkiwon defines naranhi seogi (parallel stance) as being one foot length apart with the feet parallel. It actually works out to a similar width to the ITF version (and that's how we used to describe it before learning the Kukkiwon definition) but it ends up being more consistent. A lot of clubs still use the shoulder width apart description, but then it's harder to gauge how wide your shoulders are when you can't see them and are looking down at the floor.

If you're used to practicing a wider front stance and then switch to a narrow stance it will feel unstable at first, but once you can perform it consistently the unstable feeling goes away.

 

[Earl Weiss]

At the Kukkiwon World Taekwondo Leaders Forum this year the instructor demonstrated the WHY of the Kukki-Taekwondo Apkubi. He had someone take an ITF/Karate width long stance and the same side hand out in a punch position, punching forwards. Then he put his hand on the front of the fist and tried to push the person backwards. He easily managed it with just one hand pushing and no bodyweight, the guy was off balance.

All this tells me is the guy in the stance had poor (improper as far as Chang Hon dictates) technique. I use the same demo to demonstrate a good walking stance and If it's good I can lean 100% of my 180lbs into the punch of someone weighing 150lbs and they won't move. As far as "Karate" is concerned I make no claim because of the variety of specs for front / walking stances that use that moniker.

 

[andyjeffries]

All this tells me is the guy in the stance had poor (improper as far as Chang Hon dictates) technique. I use the same demo to demonstrate a good walking stance and If it's good I can lean 100% of my 180lbs into the punch of someone weighing 150lbs and they won't move. As far as "Karate" is concerned I make no claim because of the variety of specs for front / walking stances that use that moniker.

I'm due to be meeting up with RobinTKD again in the new year. Although I can't comment on how close to Chang Hon standards he is, he seemed fairly typical in technique style for ITF that I've seen, so I'll do the experiment with him.

(Robin I don't mean that as an insult, just calling you "fairly typical", it's just that your stances don't look weird compared to other ITFs so I assume you are fairly standard).

 

[dancingalone]

He had someone take an ITF/Karate width long stance and the same side hand out in a punch position, punching forwards. Then he put his hand on the front of the fist and tried to push the person backwards. He easily managed it with just one hand pushing and no bodyweight, the guy was off balance.

Lots of variables at play here, really. Rooting, sinking, weight distribution, torso angulation, grounding the in the body vs. extension in the arms, etc. I don't believe necessarily in the superiority of one method over another (short vs. long, locked out leg vs. slightly flexed, etc.). What is 'right' depends contextually on the specific application and the individuals participating in the demonstration. Different styles do it differently because their founders came upon a balance that worked for them - students following along hopefully over time arrive at the same place where what they are taught likewise works for them.

 

[chrispillertkd]

At the Kukkiwon World Taekwondo Leaders Forum this year the instructor demonstrated the WHY of the Kukki-Taekwondo Apkubi. He had someone take an ITF/Karate width long stance and the same side hand out in a punch position, punching forwards. Then he put his hand on the front of the fist and tried to push the person backwards. He easily managed it with just one hand pushing and no bodyweight, the guy was off balance. Then he had them take a narrower Kukkiwon stance and demonstrated the same thing and had to use two arms and bodyweight and then managed to lift the guys front foot rather than push him off balance.

No offense, but whoever demonstrated that stance either wasn't doing an ITF stance or just had really poor equilibrium in general. It's pretty unlikely that someone who knows what they're doing is going to be pushed backwards as you described. I used to do stance training with my students and push on them quite strongly when they were in a walking stance and they were able to maintain balance.

Pax,

Chris