Submissions on the street

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

No submissions, if you must fight on the streets it should be for defending your or someone elses life. Submissions arent really a street application unless you have a way to detain them for a while untill you can get away. Unfortunatly that would be hard to do while you have to hold a person in a submission move. Anyone can say ouch that hurts i give up. Then when they get up you dont see thier other hand that gets the gun or knife out of their pocket. Then its over.

If you put the guy to sleep, he can't continue.

Blue Seal = Choke the guy till he turns blue, lay him face down on the pavement, pick up each wrist, one side at a time, and stamp against the elbow joint. When he awakens, he'll be trying to do a push up on 2 broken arms...flopping around like a seal. It's all about how nasty you're willing to be, and if you feel like doing time. Or, knowing in advance, how to sell that kind of abuse in court.

 

[MJS]

No submissions, if you must fight on the streets it should be for defending your or someone elses life. Submissions arent really a street application unless you have a way to detain them for a while untill you can get away. Unfortunatly that would be hard to do while you have to hold a person in a submission move. Anyone can say ouch that hurts i give up. Then when they get up you dont see thier other hand that gets the gun or knife out of their pocket. Then its over.

But, every situation that you come across isnt going to warrant "taking the guy out." You need to look at the attack presented to you, and then determine the correct response. If its just some bum on the street asking for money, do you need to break the guys neck? Now, if you're faced with someone with a knife, then yeah, I could see breaking the guys arm.

The bottom line is- You need to use as much force as whats being against you. If you follow that rule, then you shouldnt have any worries.

Mike

 

[8253]

I wasnt saying that "deadly force" is the correct response for all scenarios. However if someone was just asking me something or asking for money, not trying to rob me or hurt me, i wouldnt do anything to the person i would probably try to help them in some way. On the other hand as far as a fight goes, if someone tries to hit you chances are they wont stop long enough for you to lock in a submission move. you are usually to interested about dodging and blocking incoming punches then striking. besides if they punch you and you break their arm. oh well. anyways i prefer to try to talk my way out of a fight.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I wasnt saying that "deadly force" is the correct response for all scenarios. However if someone was just asking me something or asking for money, not trying to rob me or hurt me, i wouldnt do anything to the person i would probably try to help them in some way. On the other hand as far as a fight goes, if someone tries to hit you chances are they wont stop long enough for you to lock in a submission move. you are usually to interested about dodging and blocking incoming punches then striking. besides if they punch you and you break their arm. oh well. anyways i prefer to try to talk my way out of a fight.

If your conceptualization of submission is going side-mount on someone with a figure-4 arm bar, you're right. Not practical; you'll eventually have tolet go. If you practice entangling the upper extremities a lot (because it takes a lot more practice to do well then ballistic MA), you can develop the feel of snagging a body part (wrist, hand, etc.) and torquing it in an anatomically unfriendly direction. These are usually used in aikijujustu-related arts as take-downs, but the net effect is really only a function of speed and intent. A slow inward wristlock is a take-down (if directed towards the floor) or submission position. A fast one -- travelling at a speed that moves the soft-tissues of the joint away from the opponents body at a spped faster than the body can keep up with the joint tension -- is a dislocation, or more mildly, a sprain/strain injury. Usable in defense as deterrent, even after release (sprain the crap outta the poor guys wrist, and you'll sap some of the fighting spirit from him without too extreme of permanent damage).

IMHO, however, not to be tried by beginning students, or even intermediate for that matter. Almost everyone I know in MA has some entanglement training; only a few have put in the quality time it takes to become combatively adept at catching and twisting in the heat of swingin'. (I've caught some, and then I've caught some on the bean trying to catch some...it's both easier and harder than it looks)

Namaste!

Dr. Dave

 

[8253]

If your conceptualization of submission is going side-mount on someone with a figure-4 arm bar, you're right. Not practical; you'll eventually have tolet go. If you practice entangling the upper extremities a lot (because it takes a lot more practice to do well then ballistic MA), you can develop the feel of snagging a body part (wrist, hand, etc.) and torquing it in an anatomically unfriendly direction. These are usually used in aikijujustu-related arts as take-downs, but the net effect is really only a function of speed and intent. A slow inward wristlock is a take-down (if directed towards the floor) or submission position. A fast one -- travelling at a speed that moves the soft-tissues of the joint away from the opponents body at a spped faster than the body can keep up with the joint tension -- is a dislocation, or more mildly, a sprain/strain injury. Usable in defense as deterrent, even after release (sprain the crap outta the poor guys wrist, and you'll sap some of the fighting spirit from him without too extreme of permanent damage).

IMHO, however, not to be tried by beginning students, or even intermediate for that matter. Almost everyone I know in MA has some entanglement training; only a few have put in the quality time it takes to become combatively adept at catching and twisting in the heat of swingin'. (I've caught some, and then I've caught some on the bean trying to catch some...it's both easier and harder than it looks)

Namaste!

Dr. Dave

I cannot disagree with any of this, maybe it's just our training philosophy of not fighting unless it is absolutely necessary. But if it is necessary making sure the aggressor dosent make the same mistake twice. Come to think of it we arent tought to use submission moves. There are a few of them that we have learned but basically inaplicable unless you are ambushing someone and ambushing is definatly not allowed in our studies.

 

[MJS]

I wasnt saying that "deadly force" is the correct response for all scenarios. However if someone was just asking me something or asking for money, not trying to rob me or hurt me, i wouldnt do anything to the person i would probably try to help them in some way. On the other hand as far as a fight goes, if someone tries to hit you chances are they wont stop long enough for you to lock in a submission move. you are usually to interested about dodging and blocking incoming punches then striking. besides if they punch you and you break their arm. oh well. anyways i prefer to try to talk my way out of a fight.

In the Filipino arts, locking and limb destructions are 2 of the many different things that are focused on. Intercepting that strike and then applying a lock, which you could upgrade to a break is something, with the proper training, is not hard to achieve.

Mike

 

[Gaidheal]

Every lock/hold I know is also a potential break. The most 'friendly' control move I think I have is the standard "Pull his forearm/hand/wrist into my waist rotating it palm up as I do so and at the same time turn so as to be 'side by side' dropping into what we call 'walking stance' in TKD using my other hand/forearm in a 'blade' type configuration on his upper arm to now control his position and allow me to walk him around, force him lower, higher, etc." This can be made into a break at any time pretty much, just put some impulse into a sudden "you're going lower than that" motion, should break or at least hyper-extend an elbow or dislocate his shoulder, depending on precisely how you do so and what his reaction is.

As for when/if I'd use them.. I've done "Customer Safety Representative" (aka 'bouncer') work before now. Police in the UK take a really dim view of customers getting beaten up/killed by staff in entertainment locations. So do other customers, including, very possibly, his friends right there at the time. Now granted we work in teams so I should have at least one colleague there anyway and as a team we COULD disable up to even 10 people in sequence with just two doorstaff because of the advantages we'd typically have (training, no drug influences, full prior knowledge of the layout of furniture, location of exits, etc). But that is MAKING a problem not solving it. So yeah, there is an application for submission/control techniques right there and yes, they can be made "nasty" with a simple change of intent even in response to a new threat/issue.

John

 

[clapping_tiger]

Nice thread, I just have a few point I would like to make on this subject. First off I personally wouldn't do submissions in a street situation for one main reason. They are not my strongest asset. That is a personal reason why Iwouldn't use them. Now, from another point of view I don't see them as a top choice for someone well versed in submissions either in a street situation. First off, you never know if this guy has some buddies laying around ready to knock you one in the head as you choke out their friend, or put them in that arm bar or whatever you are doing. Second, on the street anything goes. I sometimes train some groundwork with a friend of mine who is well versed in submissions and gets me just about every time. But the thing is, while we are ground fighting, I see many opportunities to thumb him in the eyes, pinch the berries, bite him, or pretty much do anything "dirty" that could seriously hurt someone. So while we are on the ground and he is trying to get control, set up his submission, you are so used to not worrying about the "vitals" that they are wide open and unprotected. Most grappling, not all, but most grappling is set in a sparring type or sport environment. Now I am not saying that someone who is lightning fast at submitting someone would not be effective, I just am wondering if it is worth the risk. But that's just my opinion, and maybe I think that way because, like I said, that is not my strongest asset.

 

[Aegis]

OK, evidently something needs to be pointed out:

Submissions ARE NOT necessarily done on the ground. You don't have to go to the ground with an opponent to ally an arm/wrist lock or strangle/necklock. They can be done standing. There are more available on the ground, but as a grappler (jujutsu) that wouldn't be my ideal location in a fight either.

 

[clapping_tiger]

OK, evidently something needs to be pointed out:

Submissions ARE NOT necessarily done on the ground. You don't have to go to the ground with an opponent to ally an arm/wrist lock or strangle/necklock. They can be done standing. There are more available on the ground, but as a grappler (jujutsu) that wouldn't be my ideal location in a fight either.

I don't know if you are referring to my post, but I never said you had to be on the ground. I know you can lock someone up standing or on the ground, from the front, side, or rear. But, I can see how my post may have lead you belive that, seeing as how I posted about my groundfighting with my buddy. But on the ground or not, if you are grappling, what I said above still has some valid points. Like most of the time in order to control someone, on the ground or not, you are going to need to use both hands at some point to keep them in control. Do you really want to tie yourself up like that in a street situation? But if Grappling is your primary experience that may be fine for you. But in general it don't see it as a good idea.

 

[Tony]

In My Kung Fu class we haven't really covered submission techniques although we have done a lot on self defence. I think as soon as my attacker is in a weaker position, thats the time to make a run for it and call the police!

 

[Aegis]

But on the ground or not, if you are grappling, what I said above still has some valid points. Like most of the time in order to control someone, on the ground or not, you are going to need to use both hands at some point to keep them in control. Do you really want to tie yourself up like that in a street situation? But if Grappling is your primary experience that may be fine for you. But in general it don't see it as a good idea.

If you are in a fight with multiple attackers, grappling and striking are both required skills. If you are attacked with a punt you can step on, lock break and keep moving without too much difficulty (as long as you've trained to put the lock on fast) and without exposing yourself for too long. However, if it takes a little longer than expected, his mates might join in. In which case they can't come at me from one side, I'm holding their friend there, so I know where they will be coming from. Some warding kicks can buy enough time to get a strong locking position, apply the break and be ready to defend yourself again

Of course all multiple attacker situations will be different, and most will end up with you being at least slightly hurt by the end of it. Situations involving weapons will be the worst. Let's say 2 knife attckers are coming at you (for the sake of this argument we'll assume that neither is particularly skilled, as that would just be a bloodbath). With just strikes you'll be in a lot of trouble, as sooner or later they'll attack the limb you strike with. On the other hand, if you can get hold of one of them and reverse his knife on him, you drop him out of the fight immedietely. This can be done with a bent wristlock often used as a submission in other cases. Additionally you may be able to move the one attacker between you and the other, thus gaining yourself a shield while you disarm/break him. Again it's largely theoretical, but it's better than the (very few I admit) striking self defence I've seen when applied to multiple potentially armed attackers.

I think this largely comes down to what works for you, though no-one should be without at least some knowledge of both striking and grappling.

 

[clapping_tiger]

If you are in a fight with multiple attackers, grappling and striking are both required skills. If you are attacked with a punt you can step on, lock break and keep moving without too much difficulty (as long as you've trained to put the lock on fast) and without exposing yourself for too long. However, if it takes a little longer than expected, his mates might join in. In which case they can't come at me from one side, I'm holding their friend there, so I know where they will be coming from. Some warding kicks can buy enough time to get a strong locking position, apply the break and be ready to defend yourself again

Of course all multiple attacker situations will be different, and most will end up with you being at least slightly hurt by the end of it. Situations involving weapons will be the worst. Let's say 2 knife attckers are coming at you (for the sake of this argument we'll assume that neither is particularly skilled, as that would just be a bloodbath). With just strikes you'll be in a lot of trouble, as sooner or later they'll attack the limb you strike with. On the other hand, if you can get hold of one of them and reverse his knife on him, you drop him out of the fight immedietely. This can be done with a bent wristlock often used as a submission in other cases. Additionally you may be able to move the one attacker between you and the other, thus gaining yourself a shield while you disarm/break him. Again it's largely theoretical, but it's better than the (very few I admit) striking self defence I've seen when applied to multiple potentially armed attackers.

I think this largely comes down to what works for you, though no-one should be without at least some knowledge of both striking and grappling.

Well said, and I think you are right. I guess I didn't think of it in that way, as far as blending the 2 together. I was thinking a little more black and white on this topic I guess. Even though as you can tell I lean twards the striker side of the topic, I just don't think about the little things I do that would be considered grappling, such as trapping, wrist lock takedowns, sweeps and throws, ect.

 

[Gaston]

A bouncer at a college bar applied a choke, and the guy later died from it. All I know the bar got shut down for serving underage drinkers and the bouncer got arrested. Not sure how it turn out. This happen last year.

Bob

Firstly a clarification to stop the movement of air to the lungs you need not attack the trachea. The epiglottis is a small flapper valve located just above the voice box”. The pressure needed to close that valve as well as the blood flow is less than 2 lbs (less than your pinkie finger poking in). During training & competition I have been on both ends of that pressure, to the point of unconsciousness, with no permanent damage. So I have first “hand” lol experience at these techniques. Where the inherent danger comes in is when a restraint/choke combination is applied. If you transfer the force needed to restrain someone to their “wind pipe, blood vessels” long enough to choke/strangle someone unconscious permanent damage is obvious.



*back to your original point*



By submission, if you mean applying a controlling technique to an opponent with the intent of forcing him to “give up”. Just how many people have been attacked by a criminal trustworthy enough to bet your life on? Or are you inferring that that is the only way to remove someone from a situation using grappling is by submissions?

Grappling skills allow you the choice as to whether or not to go to the ground; and when/if you do in what manner it will be. I assume the definition of a strike being an impact to the human body by a moving object. In a street fight the most powerful strike you can deliver would be to reverse that definition and turn the person’s body into the moving object. Because unlike your hand, foot, or whatever you use to strike, the variety of objects to throw someone into, off of, or through are more deadly than any force the human body can deliver. When a skillfully executed throw propels your opponent at _????_the “striker” quickly becomes the “stricken”. As for what _???_ is just look around at all the things you would least like to have your body impact, and decide if you could continue an attack after impacting _??_.

sory for the length

 

[tmanifold]

Yes, but when the prosecuting attourney askes you why you chose to kill rather than using a relativly harmless blood choke, and you start blathering on about taking people out of the equation, he will weigh your value of human life against the rest of your life. A Martial artist is expected to show control.
Sean

Didn't realize this was still going, haven't been here awhile. To most people a choke is a choke, they don't know the difference between an air and blood choke. So I have to defend myself legally against all the negative connotation the word "Choking" brings with it. The first goal is not not blather at all. One must calmly and eloquently express why they felt the need to defend themselves, i.e. they feared for their life or safety. The second part is not to hold it that long. Hold it as long as you need to and then let it go. With a windpipe choke that is less then 5 seconds and at best the guy will be holding his throat trying to breath for awhile. with a Strangle (or blood choke) if you don't put him out he will be ready to go with in seconds of you releasing him. Lastly, you need to make it clear that you used the best judgement you could given the circumstances. Fog of combat and all that. You have to remember that real combat is not like the ring. Even in the ring you forget your game plan or get confused as to whats happening. In the street you can mulitple that by ten at least.

Now back to the original point. Submissions are not good for the street, at least most of them aren't. There are a select few that easily lend themselves to breaks that are of use. The biggest problem is as gaston said, "how many people have been attacked by a criminal trustworthy enough to bet your life on?" Most submissions are really hard to turn in to breaks, in fact most submissions are really hard to do period. Can you imagine trying to use a Juji gatame on the street? I don't know how often I have seen people screw that up, even experienced fighters. For real street style combat, I limit myself to forearm based chokes (Rear naked, guillotine), a couple of neck cranks and one or two ankle breaks that just happen to flow naturally from catching a kick.

If you are talking Bouncer work, security or Law enforcement, then there is a whole different ball game. You often have help, a position of authority, are often dealing with people who are only half assed resisting and are often restricted in what you can do by your employer. For these people submissions are required. Still they should keep in simple and direct.

Tony

 

[Brother John]

Every case is unique, BUT:
If this person has made me fear for my life to the point that I've had to fight them, I'm not stopping until I am 110% satisfied that they CAN'T continue to be a threat. If it means snapping something, it's snapping. I won't let a street punk tap out only to stand up and re-attack.
NO
If I get the chance, I won't assume...
I'll consume.

Your Brother
John