Crime Victim Uses Submission Hold; Suspect Eventually Dies. Now What?

MA-Caver

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since when did we start caring more about the criminals than the victims?
We don't... but criminal or victim... they're all human beings... but it is a lawyers job and they done a damn good one of convincing people to care for the criminal and their so called rights under the law. The lawyers and then the judges who didn't get disgusted enough to throw them out of the courtroom when hearing the mournful plea for the pitiful criminal down on his luck, victim of circumstances and all the other crap that a silver tongued defender has to offer.
 

Twin Fist

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scumbag lawyers take the case, and scumbag liberal judges agree to hear the cases, and lord knows the idiot juries that go that way...............
 

Gaius Julius Caesar

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Same thing happened to me long, long time ago in my early twenties when I was walking towards a destination late at night (missed the last bus) and a guy had jumped me wanting my (non-existent) money. In the course of our fight I gave him a slashing sword hand strike to his throat, he dropped to the sidewalk gasping and I just walked away from him as fast as I could. I have NO idea of his fate, I would like to imagine that he managed to breathe well enough and got up and staggered on home that much wiser. I hit his windpipe dead-on and pretty hard... :idunno: like I said... dunno what was the result... only that I was able to get away. I don't think the guy had any intention of killing (neither did I) but it happens... same as a cop who fires back when fired upon... he hopes that it won't kill but if it does... then it's one less scumbag for them and the average citizen to worry about.

At 15 I was walking back from TKD class and stupidly taking a short cut behind a some buildings. Accosted by a crackhead with a busted bottle. I was petrified and and front kicked him in the throat (How I did not get cut in the leg is dumb luck IMO) and he went down like a bag of crap, holding his throat, no sound coming out and rolling around on the ground.
RAN! home, dont know what happend to him (I was checking the Police Blotter that week intently) told no one for years, nervious about any legal ramifications but as to his fate? You should not threaten people with GBH and if you do you deserve what you get including death.

Screw the Perp, 6 billion people on this rock, lots of them good and in dire straits so I'd rather care about them than crimminals and low IQ basterds who mess with innocent people.

Yes you have to care about the legalities, but these laws need to change.
Your home is your castle, mess with the king and off with their heads.
 

tinker1

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There is also a bit of an issue related to a submission choke hold and a strike (punch or a kick). I don't want to get into a debate about effectiveness of either - been down that rabbit hole a time or two...

A strike is a instant reaction. Bang and it's done. The guy is out cold - or depending on the strike or how he went down, he could be dead.

A submission hold such as a choke is not an instant thing. It takes a few moments to take full effect. In the case of a choke, the amount of time or the difference in time of release between causing unconsciousness, or causing brain injury or death and be hard to ascertain. I'm sure an experienced fighter in the grappling arts can determine it, but differences in physiology of the victim + adrenalin pumping through the veins of the instigator, could skew this.

The issue as I see it is that the choke was applied for some amount of time. That length of time was a choice made by the instigator.

I'm suggesting that if the action of the instigator was a *bang* and it's over event, there may not be cause for litigation. Whereas because the choke was held for an amount of time to cause eventual death, litigation could be possible.
 

Sensei Payne

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The Out come will usually be determined by whatever state that this happened in...some may call it involuntary manslaughter...and some may call it self defense.

In Kentucky, the victim would't probably be held for questioning...but after the story checks out...he would probably walk away from it without any other penalties...but thats after he proves he had to do what he had to do.
 

JohnEdward

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After reading the everyone's well thought out responses thus far, I hope am going to make insightful comments, both directly and indirectly.

I was told, when I was interested Judo and BJJ, based on my concerns that choke holds will not kill, and no one has ever died or seriously injured from being choked out. This idea was pretty prevalent to be true among people in both arts, including those who watch pro wrestling. I found it very difficult surfing the web to find a case where that chokes clearly caused death. With that in mind, it is a good assumption the victim was told the same thing as I, in some way or another. It is not unreasonable to believing he use a choke hold as a means of a safe way to restrain someone, to "put them to sleep." I think that would be strong stance in his defense. Also, it has to be proven that the choke hold was the actual cause of death. The suspected burglar could have died from something else, not directly related to the choke. Such as, a brain later hemorrhage, or due to a previous health condition or injury. Doctors and the law are very picky about stuff like that, such as what is the exact cause are of illness or death. The idea chokes are a way of restraining and controlling someone without the result of death is very, very common.

It is my understanding the suspect did not die immediately at the scene. That the victim's choke hold didn't kill the suspect immediately; break his neck collapse the trachea etc. Now the suspect's trachea my have been damaged, but not to the point of death. Otherwise death would have been instantaneously. If the trachea collapsed the suspect would have died at the scene. I will than assume it was a choke that cut off the blood supply to the brain. Which I was told in theory that it takes sometime time holding that choke to kill someone on the spot. Most people I have witnessed in the dojo and once in the street, as well as myself, applying a blood choke instinctively release the hold from the person upon collapsing and is passed out.

Btw, I was told by an ENT, who is a martial artist, that it takes a mere seven pounds of direct force. i.e. a punch upon the trachea to collapse it resulting in death. Am not sure if any submission/choke hold techniques like a rear naked choke/sleeper hold applies that much force as you are instead compressing the trachea. There is no force coming down on the trachea to collapse it.

Is suspicion of stealing someone's property an automatic death sentence? I too live in Texas, and stealing is a death sentence, such as in the Horn case. So too is aggressively approaching someone where the other person feels threatened. There are many examples of this through out Texas, especially with road rage, and bar fights. 99.9% of the time a gun is involved. Most people here understand you just do go off on someone where they feel threatened, burglarizing property or robbing someone there is a high risk of being justifiably shot to death. Putting a choke hold on someone, is far less lethal than shooting someone for suspension of burglary. It is my understanding the suspect ran away empty handed. And the victim chased him to stop him from getting away. In most states, generally, a person has to use the same force legally in terms of self defense. You can't shoot someone for slapping you. You can only slap them back in consideration there is a threat. But, the suspect was running away and wasn't a threat. That is the rub for many people, because it seems so irrational, uncivil, and immoral for someone to die who is suspected of burglary who was running away to end up dead by the alleged victim.

And it disturbs people and is irrational that the idea they could be killed on suspicion of theft. Let's say you walk by a car in a parking lot going to your car and the alarm goes off, the owner also walking to his car thinks you've attempted to brake in to his car do to your proximity and reacts thereby strangling you, or shoots you. All without a trial. You are instantly assumed guilty and sentenced to death.

Bottom line for me is choke holds are dangerous, though you never see the danger in it on the UFC or other venues like that. Or in professional wrestling where chokes are a staple. Never in the dojo, where chokes put on someone are monitored in is a safe and control environment. All of which points to choke holds are a safe way and effective way to restrain someone. As this case proves that all is a myth. If the facts where presented that choke holds are dangerous, maybe the victim wouldn't be in the situation he is in now.
 

bushidomartialarts

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The chasing seems to be the big hangup.

Agree with TF here...a guy I caught on my property with ill intent ends up taking his meals through a tube for a while.

But most states have little sense of humor when people pursue others with the express purpose of doing them harm. Although we have the right to a citizen's arrest, we're not really supposed to chase them -- not even licensed security guys are supposed to pursue somebody once they leave the property.

I'm shedding no tears for the 19 year old dumbass -- though I feel bad for his family. But situations like this are exactly why we have the right to defend ourselves...not the right to wreak our idea of justice on the bad guys.
 

chinto

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There is also a bit of an issue related to a submission choke hold and a strike (punch or a kick). I don't want to get into a debate about effectiveness of either - been down that rabbit hole a time or two...

A strike is a instant reaction. Bang and it's done. The guy is out cold - or depending on the strike or how he went down, he could be dead.

A submission hold such as a choke is not an instant thing. It takes a few moments to take full effect. In the case of a choke, the amount of time or the difference in time of release between causing unconsciousness, or causing brain injury or death and be hard to ascertain. I'm sure an experienced fighter in the grappling arts can determine it, but differences in physiology of the victim + adrenalin pumping through the veins of the instigator, could skew this.

The issue as I see it is that the choke was applied for some amount of time. That length of time was a choice made by the instigator.

I'm suggesting that if the action of the instigator was a *bang* and it's over event, there may not be cause for litigation. Whereas because the choke was held for an amount of time to cause eventual death, litigation could be possible.

In my state if you use a technique that is likely to result in death ( choke or strangle are considered such ) you have initiated DEADLY FORCE. if you do so and they die, and they have not shown lethal intent and capability.... MURDER is the charge... and other wise ATTEMPTED MURDER will provably be charged. if you have them in some other kind of submition that does NOT normally end in death, then it would not rate a murder charge or attempted murder charge. ( bu then they are making noises about charging a girl that is 9 years old with attempted murder for tying a knot in a rope at a school that the kid she tied it for used to try and commit suicide... so don't count on anything legally except that if they can charge you they provably will. )
 
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