Strength or speed

[Vadim]

I think that speed combined with proper execution of a technique will give you the necessary power. The natural strength that you have within your body also plays a factor. In conclusion a combination of both is key.

-Vadim

 

[Zujitsuka]

I'll chime in again and say speed. The key to power in martial arts is how fast you can get your body moving in a given direction and place your body's weight behind a strike, throw, etc. Power isn't necessarily determined by how much you can bench press or squat.

Martina Sprague expertly explains this in her book entitled FIGHTING SCIENCE: The Laws of Physics for Martial Artists.

 

[Kenpodoc]

"Momentum is not a force therefore cannot produce damage it can only change the velocity of a different mass. "
Good point. Thus a coasting car cannot cause any actual harm. In fact if the car is decellerating it will draw impact out of you since the accelleration is suddenly a negative number. %-}

Jeff

 

[loki09789]

I'll chime in again and say speed. The key to power in martial arts is how fast you can get your body moving in a given direction and place your body's weight behind a strike, throw, etc. Power isn't necessarily determined by how much you can bench press or squat.

Martina Sprague expertly explains this in her book entitled FIGHTING SCIENCE: The Laws of Physics for Martial Artists.

Agreed it is not necessarily determined, but if you have established/improved/increased the base strength of a muscle group and then train that part of the body to recruit that increased strength base in power generation/speed application, you will have a more 'powerful' strike because of that change in the strength component.

There was a performance lab study done on a girls college volleyball team where one of the categories was the vertical jump (applied to spiking/blocking) and one of the things was the cyclical or periodization pattern in the training so that as you leveled out on 'speed strength' and couldn't seem to improve, you would cycle into more basic core exercises again (squats, lunges,...) and then reapply those 'new muscles' to the plyometric/dynamic application... by cycling the routines, improvement continued in an individual way because the body and performance told the trainers/athletes when things needed to change.

 

[Zujitsuka]

Agreed it is not necessarily determined, but if you have established/improved/increased the base strength of a muscle group and then train that part of the body to recruit that increased strength base in power generation/speed application, you will have a more 'powerful' strike because of that change in the strength component.

There was a performance lab study done on a girls college volleyball team where one of the categories was the vertical jump (applied to spiking/blocking) and one of the things was the cyclical or periodization pattern in the training so that as you leveled out on 'speed strength' and couldn't seem to improve, you would cycle into more basic core exercises again (squats, lunges,...) and then reapply those 'new muscles' to the plyometric/dynamic application... by cycling the routines, improvement continued in an individual way because the body and performance told the trainers/athletes when things needed to change.

What you said is on the money my man. I really like the way you explained periodization. When it comes to weight training, the thing is that some people don't understand that there are different kinds of strength (starting, absolute, limit, explosive, etc.) and think that by developing absolute strength, they will be able to hit harder and faster. However, if one is doing slow lifts, these objectives will not be realized.

This is why olympic lifts like the clean and jerk, and the snatch are more functional for martial artists as they develop starting strength and explosive strength. When you throw in some plyometrics as you mentioned, one learns how to relax and then to suddenly turn-on muscles to accomplish the task at hand. In our case (as martial artists), to knock someone on their tail.

 

[5 hand swords]

Speed, accuracy, timing and strength. Speed is probably the biggest factor

Todd

Wow! Out of this expanded group of choices I would pick accuracy.
If I hit it correctly speed and strength (which has been combined to = Force and "can you say false alternitive" about the orignal question?) is much less importent and Timing is nothing without it.
A Miss is a miss at any speed or strength level and the more you miss with, the more open to a weak/slow but accurate blow you are.

 

[ghostdog2]

Speed Kills.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Which came first the egg or the chicken? Which is more important,the strenght or the speed? I like chicken and eggs. I guess I like them both. At least we can improve on both the speed and strenght for ourselves. Fast or strong? Nice to be the fast and strong when running away to escape. (In this case ,speed is better).

 

[Blooming Lotus]

Wow! Out of this expanded group of choices I would pick accuracy.
If I hit it correctly speed and strength (which has been combined to = Force and "can you say false alternitive" about the orignal question?) is much less importent and Timing is nothing without it.
A Miss is a miss at any speed or strength level and the more you miss with, the more open to a weak/slow but accurate blow you are.

Accuracy is good, but skill is better and accuracy only a part of it. Over and above that, quantity of skills you can use effectively is better again. For example, today we had a days worth of defence tactic training and my instructor of 20 yrs expreience, myself the only female, and men all much larger than myself, but with less skill or repetoire, used what they had ( like strength, locks and holds not catering for elbows/ foot - knee stomps / pressure points ( and wheretf might they be they ask :0 :0 ) etc , where as that's the scope I use in every defence small and female as I am, but at the end of the day, they just fell short on counters. Sounds a little egotistical, but I'm convinced, size or no size, all else equal, the most techs ( options ) wins the day.

on the original question though, speed pending the skill you're using it to execute.
( btw : a "good" technique will take care of itself and work regardless )

Blooming Lotus

 

[ghostdog2]

The question was: Which creates more power, speed or strength. I used to play a lot of golf and this issue was the topic of endless research and debate. In that sport, the question is: how to apply more force to the golf ball and get more distance. The answer: greater clubhead speed not a heavier club or "stronger" swing. Why? Their answer is that F=MV(squared). Force equals mass times velocity squared. Therefor, any increase in velocity (since it will be squared) has a greater effect than an equivalent increase in mass.
I don't vouch for the accuracy of the physics or the conversion of golf swing theory to MA, but it's food for thought.
As an aside, any technique will diminish in effectiveness if your opponent can see it coming a mile away. My instructor emphasises speed."Let your punches fly, kick fast and through your target. The power will be there." Seems to work, imho.

 

[Kenpodoc]

The question was: Which creates more power, speed or strength. I used to play a lot of golf and this issue was the topic of endless research and debate. In that sport, the question is: how to apply more force to the golf ball and get more distance. The answer: greater clubhead speed not a heavier club or "stronger" swing. Why? Their answer is that F=MV(squared). Force equals mass times velocity squared. Therefor, any increase in velocity (since it will be squared) has a greater effect than an equivalent increase in mass.
I don't vouch for the accuracy of the physics or the conversion of golf swing theory to MA, but it's food for thought.
As an aside, any technique will diminish in effectiveness if your opponent can see it coming a mile away. My instructor emphasises speed."Let your punches fly, kick fast and through your target. The power will be there." Seems to work, imho.

F=MA,
kE=MV(squared) Mild nit picking since it's kinetic energy you want to discuss anyway. Unfortunately MA striking effectiveness is more complicated than golf.

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[Ippon Ken]

alright...just from a physics standpoint, acceleration is the rate at which velocity(speed) is changing...but if my punch is coming at 30 miles an hour...and it's not changing...the acceleration is 0...so the force deliverd by my punch is F=M*0...which equals zero force...there is still momentum, P.

i believe momentum, p is
p = .5mv
or one half times the mass and velocity...

anyways...back to force...even if the speed isn't changing...if you hit me in the head and the speed of your hand doesn't change....my head was sitting still so as your momentum is transferred, my head accelerates and it also has mass...therefore there is a force(it is around us and binds the galaxy together)....as you can see...just looking at equation for force...you need size(mass) and acceleration(what we'll call speed)...if your missing one...the force is 0..

so if my hand and arm weighs 5 kg...and is accelerationg at 10 m/s^2...

F = 5 kg * 10 m/s^2 = 50 kg*m/s^2 or 50 Newtons

the same goes for if my hand and arm weigh 10 kg and my hand accelerates at 5 m/s^2

F = 10 kg * 5 m/s^2 = 50 kg*m/s^2 or 50 Newtons

you need both...and both are equally important...but you have to use whatever works for you the best....if you're a big slow guy...don't necessarily train to focus on speed...because you'll likely never be as fast as a skinny little quick guy...and he'll likely never have the same amount of mass as you do....but both can deliver the same amount of force if you know how to use what you've got...

Using the equation for force you'll find that speed (velocity) is twice as important as mass (hence velocity squared). That's how tornadoes and hurricanes can imbed a piece of straw (hay) or a twig into a tree trunk. Little mass but extreme velocity. Now beyond speed efficient transfer of power is very important in striking. Using the smallest and strongest contact areas along a line (radius to first 2 knuckles, big toe-tips) etc. will deliver more force into the target in a concentrated matter (small area) which results in penetrating force versus superficial distribution. This is where whipping, relaxed motions that follow through the target, returning just as fast or faster if possible (vs. pushing punches), will maximize striking force. This same principle applies to high velocity bullets, arrows and any projectile.

Thrown correctly a punch or a kick is a projectile, not unlike a ball and chain (manriki) or mace. Note that whipping and snapping strikes are NOT synonymous. As for the Cheetah thing, uhhhh, their weapons (jaws) aren't using velocity. That speed involves locomotion.

Strength for striking entails some muscle but more sinew (connective tissue like tendons and ligaments). Relying solely on muscles only lasts when you're young, and full-force is not seen without flexiblity even if you're young and strong but stiff. Also antagonistic and protagonistic muscle action need to be understood before you can maximize striking efficacy and efficiency. This is why the progression of primarily striking arts usually goes from hard to soft as things become more ingrained in muscle memory and become more second nature or reflexive with years and years of proper, diligent training.

My take. Take it or leave it, but it's based on "the real" versus assumption. Peace.

 

[Loren W. Christensen]

In my opinion it depends on what you’re doing. Some say that you need speed to “open the door” and power to close it. This means you need a quick offense to startle/hit the threat, and then you need power to bring him to his knees. That said, the situation might call for power first, since you might have only one opportunity to hit.



Others argue that power isn’t necessary as long as you hit a vital target. Of course speed helps you get your blow there before the threat can block or evade.



Many masters say that neither speed nor power are important because it’s all about timing, hitting the target at a precise moment.



As an aside, the good news is that lifting heavy weights stimulates the fast-twitch muscle fibers that develop both speed and power.



Loren Christensen

www.lwcbooks.com

 

[Kenpodoc]

The formula you are looking for is Kinetic energy (KE)

KE = (mass x velocity squared)/2 or 1/2 mv2 or 1/2 x m x v x v

Velocity is clearly more important than mass since it is squared but in biophysics this gets more complicated. Velocity is at least partially related to strength. But it is also related to well coordinated relaxation of opposing muscles and the coordinated movement across multiple joints.

There are very fast Martial artists who mostly perform fluttering butterfly techniques because of poor timing, inefficient use of there own mass, and failure to penetrate so that the braking action comes from within their own tissues and not from the opponents.

There are very strong martial artists whose resting tone is so high that much of their strength goes into fighting the opposing muscles in their own body.

An example of the use of physics to amplify speed and effect is the whip. A simple easy motion at the handle can lead to a supersonic flesh tearing action at the tip.

I love watching old movies of Edmund Parker. A big powerful man but totally relaxed and each movement looks effortless but the timing and coordination of his body movement combined to cause powerful accurate strikes. A current martial artist displaying this is Vladamir Vasiliev (Systema). He never looks like he is hurrying or working hard but the effect is so devastating that it almost looks fake.

Jeff

 

[Shidan]

Speed

 

[OC Kid]

To me timing, you can be fast,strong but if your timing is off nothing will work

 

[AC_Pilot]

Neither. Strength x speed = power. One needs both to excell against a variety of opponents.

 

[Simon Curran]

Physics aside, I recently witness my trainer (about 160 lbs and very fast) sparring with one of the trainers from our sister club (about 325 lbs and average speed)

I probably don't need to tell you how that looked, my trainer used his speed to get in and out very fast, but eventually he was just about bowled over as a result of pure mass.

 

[ArtlessArt]

There is one thing that I've noticed in this thread as missing, what about endurance? All the speed, strength, technique etc... is worth nothing if you can't hold your own for more than a few minutes (and I have sparred some guys that were easily 150+ pounds more than me, way stronger and probably way meaner, but were huffing and puffing after minutes).

That being said its not speed or strength that matters, but the whole package. Thinking otherwise is gonna leave you counting lights on a dojo ceiling, while the bigger/smaller, but better trained competitor/martial artist/whatever is mopping the floor with you.

 

[Knifehand]

There is one thing that I've noticed in this thread as missing, what about endurance? All the speed, strength, technique etc... is worth nothing if you can't hold your own for more than a few minutes (and I have sparred some guys that were easily 150+ pounds more than me, way stronger and probably way meaner, but were huffing and puffing after minutes).

That being said its not speed or strength that matters, but the whole package. Thinking otherwise is gonna leave you counting lights on a dojo ceiling, while the bigger/smaller, but better trained competitor/martial artist/whatever is mopping the floor with you.

I agree. but this is all academic if you are fighting people of your belt rank or of the same skill level. I can't see a cho dan needing much strength, speed or endurance to be a yellow belt. In a self defense situation, however, speed makes all the difference. Regardless of how stong you are, you can put someone down by going for pressure points and critical areas such as the solar plexus or the area between the nose and the mouth (in Joong), quickly and accuratly, you wouldn't need much endurance.

a few aspects that were not mentioned were Balance, focus, and coordination.