Sport vs Traditional

[puunui]

Nothing against sport MA and I can’t add much to this discussion but old school, pre-Olympic, non-sport TKD, as I trained it, had close in fight training and some simple locks

But "old school, pre-Olympic non-sport TKD" also had no steps, a weak or no sparring stance (generally with weight backward), flippy kicks that snapped at the knee only, and non-contact punches similar to karate "sport" punches. But against a non-moving target (like a stack of roofing tiles), some could generate tremendous power.

 

[Manny]

The WTF sparring I know uses full power blows, I've seen broken forearms trying to block kicks in tournaments, also broken wrist and fingers for the same matter, I've seen kicks to the solar plexus and to the ribs where no matter a hogu is kicked the fighter went to the floor, and also I've seen knockouts to the head.

As a center referee I can tell you the black belts kicks very hard.

Manny

 

[puunui]

The WTF sparring I know uses full power blows, I've seen broken forearms trying to block kicks in tournaments, also broken wrist and fingers for the same matter

In the past, that was sometimes due to the competitor losing too much weight too fast. They become brittle from all that water weight loss. Now coaches and competitors are much smarter about cutting weight and hopefully that sort of injury is being minimized.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

have you ever realy seen a so called "sport" trained TKD player not be able to defend themselves when they needed to. Now Im not talking about the my grandma herd about my cousin seeing someone saying that they saw someone getting their butt kicked. Im talking seeing in person. So for real. Have you actually seen it?

Yes. And it is not limited to just TKD. I've actually seen more BJJ guys get hurt in real world altercations. The reason is simple; we react under duress how we train. That doesn't mean the TKD or BJJ guy isn't tough or well skilled. But if the TKD person is taken to the ground, and has no ground defense then they're at a disadvantage. If the BJJ guy takes someone that is armed to the ground...well let's just say I've seen it and it isn't pretty.

I've seen TKD'ers (and other kicking related arts) have difficulty in street clothes and/or on other than level, dry surfaces. It's one thing to be warmed up in 'angry white pajamas' and quite another to be wearing tight jeans or winter clothing or on a slippery surface or between two parked cars where you have limited manuvering room.

I once saw a Lt. for another agency teaching MMA sport stuff to officers for on-duty altercations. Stuff like flipping over and getting the guy in a kamora or arm bar. He was wearing sweat pants on mats. I asked him if he planned on doing that in a uniform, vest, 30lbs duty belt on asphalt? He didn't teach that anymore.

Royce Gracie had to alter BJJ for officers at S.E.P.S.I. since the normal MMA BJJ stuff didnt' work for typical on-duty encounters.

I've posted this before, but perhaps it will help to illustrate my point to post it again;

A referee is involved for the purpose of enforcing pre-determined rules that were mutually agreed upon by each opponent.
There are often timed rounds with a short break in-between where a player can catch his/her breath, get a drink of water, get some advise from a trainer.
The match is in a well lit, dry, level, soft venue.
The opponent is unarmed.
The opponent is alone with little chance others will join in.
Some sort of safety gear is usually involved i.e. cup, mouth piece, gloves etc.
The opponent usually isn't trying to kill, maim or severely injure you.
If you've had enough, you can call a time out or tap out or simply quit and walk away.
The prize is a ribbon, plastic trophy or maybe cash. (depending on the competition)

Such training could utilize refined motor skills. It could employ a particular strategy i.e. wear the opponent down, put them against a corner and tie them up with a submission etc. Such strategy may involve making the match go long on time.

As a comparison, self-defense training is for situations;


Where there is no referee enforcing rules. You are likely alone and/or at some sort of a place or position of disadvantage.
There are no rules.
There are no breaks, water, advice or anything to assist you.
The assault can occur in a parking lot, elevator, side street, your car, your bedroom, in the woods etc. I will likely occur in dim light conditions in any type of weather.
The attacker may be armed, and should be assumed to be armed.
The attacker may have friends more than willing to jump in.
There is no safety gear, but likely a plethora of person-unfriendly objects like broken glass, traffic, walls etc.
The attacker is looking to cause as much damage to you as humanly possible in the shortest amount of time possible.
To quit is to die (or something possibly worse i.e. rape, love one killed etc)
The goal is survival, the method is whatever it takes.

When discussing self-defense training, how and where do you train? Important questions that need some serious examination. Here are some considerations;

1. Lighting. Many if not most 'incidents' happen in dim lighting conditions. Is at least some of your training in dim or even no light? If its not, I would challenge you to begin immediately. Things can appear quite different at night or in a dim light area.

2. Terrain. I would say that your chances of being attacked on a soft mat are pretty slim. Out on the asphalt or concrete might be a more likely spot. Or gravel. Dirt. Grass. Sand. Wet and slippery. Training on different surfaces and different angles is a plus to your training.

3. Position. Do you always train in the 'combat stance'? How about training in a chair? A car? A hallway or stairwell. How about your own bed? In the real world people have to fight in all sorts of odd places and positions. Most fights don't start with both people standing six feet apart wearing training gear with a referee. You might want to expand the horizons a bit when it comes to position and place.

4. Clothing. Ever been attacked in you bare foot in your Gi? Probably not. Might want to institute a 'street clothes' night. If you train military or Officers, get them in their gear. Get some shoes on while your at it.

5. Improvised weapons. There all around us. Do you train to use them? A pocket full of change or keys thrown in the BG's eyes. Grab a lamp of the night stand and put it upside his head. How about a knick-knack or chair? Look around you.

Seems to me I remember something about situational awareness/awareness of one's surroundings.

Things to think about for your next training session because your next session might be the one that preceeds a life or death assualt....

 

[mastercole]

If your school is only teaching Olympic sparring then you are what is called a sport only school and not a TKD school.

I think a lot of Taekwondoin these days need to reconsider this whole "sport" label that Gen. CHOI Hong Hi attached to WTF a long time ago...

This is part of a post I placed in a different section, but I see that it might fit better in this discussion. GM Chong Woo Lee (Jidokwan) was one of the main architects of Shihap Kyorugi.
-----
I will also say this about sparring. Taekwondo has within it, many types of sparring. However, some people are critical the most well known type, Shihap Kyorugi, the type of Taekwondo competition found in the Olympics. But Shihap Kyorugi was invented with Self Defense in mind just as much as it was hoped to be an international sporting event. Our intelligent seniors made it both a self defense practice, and an international sporting event.

Here was their thinking, according to GM Chong Woo Lee, also in his 80's

- bare fist and foot to strike the target forces the use of correct shape of technique, not a covered hand and foot which changes the technique and allows it to be sloppy.

- full force blows, as used in self defense because we must learn to deliver them as well as roll with them to survive a fight

- limit techniques to the most basic gross motor striking skills, as fine motor skills usually go out the window in a fight, and the most dangerous and violent attacks that do the most damage to humans come from those gross motor striking skills, we must learn to defend against them

- limited target area, making that area easier to defend and harder to successfully attack, thereby forcing the attacking techniques to a higher skill level in order to defeat the well defended target area

- allowing knockout, thus adding intense psychological pressure. This places REAL fear into the equation, and fear is the emotional obstruction to a clear mindset, where decision to action has to occur seamlessly, without hesitation. Indecision is the Grim Reaper of self defense and fear brings it forth at the worst time

The International Olympic Committee considered these factors of realism (along with other factors) and accepted Shihap Kyorugi as an Olympic event.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

OK... so after a day we get ONE response back that has actually seen a sport guy get his but handed to him... ONE... Now granted there will be more. But I guarantee there will be a couple "traditional" guys out there who have had their butts handed to them as well. My point being sport TKD isnt the big bad thing that the traditional tkd people try to portray it as. The thing is if you are a mugger/robber whatever you are not looking for a confident type person to rob/mug. YOu are looking for an easy mark. A trained person, be it traditional or sport, is not going to come off as an easy mark. So throw out all those silly arguments about sport guys having your hands down and how they could never defend themselves and dada dada da... The truth is... THEY CAN. Or at least they obviously very seldom have to which is even better!

It would be very hard to get any actual figures on sport tkdists getting beaten in 'real fights'. For a start, many people have never seen a real fight and some have only seen a couple and even those who see real fights wont know if one of the fighters is a sport tkdist. I mean, Ive seen lots of fights, but generally I dont know either person in the fight and would have no idea if one or both have any MA training. I certainly wouldnt be using a random poll on a forum as any sort of guide as to how well a sport tkdist goes in a real fight.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

That is one way to use a cover punch in Taekwondo competition. More common though would be use of the front hand to punch while blocking or "covering" with the rear arm, since for the most part people kick to the front side of the hogu.

But competition has evolved to the point where players are going for punches to score in and off themselves. One of my students in fact lead this charge. He scored four punches one year at Nationals, on his way to winning gold. (Went on to make team that year too). He was dropping people with his punches. At the time, one point for a punch at a tournament is a rarity; four scoring punches is unheard of, at least at the time. Other martial artists from different styles who want to stereotype Taekwondoin as having no punching ability should rethink that position. Again, we are interested in everything having to do with Taekwondo, punches being a part of that everything.

Thats great to hear. Has there been a definite inccease in points scored from punching? From what Ive seen, olympic sparring with the addition of some more punches, would be great to watch.

 

[puunui]

I think a lot of Taekwondoin these days need to reconsider this whole "sport" label that Gen. CHOI Hong Hi attached to WTF a long time ago...

This is part of a post I placed in a different section, but I see that it might fit better in this discussion. GM Chong Woo Lee (Jidokwan) was one of the main architects of Shihap Kyorugi.
-----
I will also say this about sparring. Taekwondo has within it, many types of sparring. However, some people are critical the most well known type, Shihap Kyorugi, the type of Taekwondo competition found in the Olympics. But Shihap Kyorugi was invented with Self Defense in mind just as much as it was hoped to be an international sporting event. Our intelligent seniors made it both a self defense practice, and an international sporting event.

Here was their thinking, according to GM Chong Woo Lee, also in his 80's

- bare fist and foot to strike the target forces the use of correct shape of technique, not a covered hand and foot which changes the technique and allows it to be sloppy.

- full force blows, as used in self defense because we must learn to deliver them as well as roll with them to survive a fight

- limit techniques to the most basic gross motor striking skills, as fine motor skills usually go out the window in a fight, and the most dangerous and violent attacks that do the most damage to humans come from those gross motor striking skills, we must learn to defend against them

- limited target area, making that area easier to defend and harder to successfully attack, thereby forcing the attacking techniques to a higher skill level in order to defeat the well defended target area

- allowing knockout, thus adding intense psychological pressure. This places REAL fear into the equation, and fear is the emotional obstruction to a clear mindset, where decision to action has to occur seamlessly, without hesitation. Indecision is the Grim Reaper of self defense and fear brings it forth at the worst time

The International Olympic Committee considered these factors of realism (along with other factors) and accepted Shihap Kyorugi as an Olympic event.

This is a better explanation than I tried to give. I will say that speaking to the pioneers (which gets harder with each passing day) is the way to go when trying to truly understand Taekwondo. They created it, they obviously know the reasoning as to why they did what they did.

 

[Master Dan]

I couldnt agree more. One of the first things my instructor said to me was "you can be the best kicker in the world but if you cant punch you're screwed in a real fight".

My GM was one of the prominent students of Mas Oyama and a 9th Dan in TKD KKW in one of our personal moments about 700 miles from the North Pole I had brought him there to share in a native festival. In my Dojang we discussed many topics one of which was his frustration over modern TKD sport fighting and the loss of the use of hands. He made the comment they should just call it Tae Do foot only they no longer know how to use their hands. While I have seen some very powerful people with hands over time he was probably the most powerfull I ever personally trained with with out any gimics hard core massive ki and hitting ability.

I think real fight is a good point here its not pretty and the person most likely to come out ahead has all skills including going to ground if needed but most important to adapt quickly simple strait thechnique penetraiting. I have seen many cases of arrogant flashy kickers getting their proverbial butts kicked by what seemed to be unworthy oponents or attackers with alot of street wise experience. We had one of our blackbelst in the 80's in korea with a group that mouthed off to the wrong person a kid on the street and got clocked with a head butt just plain and simple and walked off.

There is a published story from Mas Oyama talking about doing his military stint in Korea and 4 TKDers giving him a hard time about chores and other such things and it finally came down to 4 on 1 and he knocked all of them out and then stated "(thats what happens when flashy kicks meet a strong Karate Man)" qoute.

I also hear instructors make the statement on these forums they have never had anyone attacked in any fashon on the street? I have mixed emotion on that first how nice? Second gee I hope none of your students travel to the real world or is this just a class and finances thing? Far as I can see kids and people are getting thier asses kicked in alot of places these days.

 

[mastercole]

I have seen many cases of arrogant flashy kickers getting their proverbial butts kicked by what seemed to be unworthy oponents or attackers with alot of street wise experience.

How many is many. 3, 12, 39?

Where exactly did these street wise fighters beat up these flashy TKD'ers? I mean like Joe's Bar, parking lot at Walgreen's?

Just curious

 

[troubleenuf]

EXACTLY the point of this thread. If you are doing a "study" of anything you have to have more than a "few" cases of something to make a claim. I'm sorry but here we are again. Going back to Mas Oyama? Come on, that was a different time a different world almost. Yes there are still parts of the world that are rough but 90% of us dont live in that world. Unless you can point out a bunch of, and I mean a substantial amount of cases, were sport TKD practitioners are getting mugged, loosing fights ect... then the entire debate is a moot point. If the problem dosnt exist then its in the mind of those who want to make it up for another reason.

How many is many. 3, 12, 39?

Where exactly did these street wise fighters beat up these flashy TKD'ers? I mean like Joe's Bar, parking lot at Walgreen's?

Just curious

 

[Xue Sheng]

But "old school, pre-Olympic non-sport TKD" also had no steps, a weak or no sparring stance (generally with weight backward), flippy kicks that snapped at the knee only, and non-contact punches similar to karate "sport" punches. But against a non-moving target (like a stack of roofing tiles), some could generate tremendous power.

Ummm not the way I was trained

We had sparing and it hurt we had all sorts of kicks low and high the stance was not back weighted and we trained on moving targets so either Mr. Kim trained it differently or I don't know where you are getting your info.

There was a discussion between some of the students and Mr. Kim about getting protective gear. He thought it was rather funny because there was no protective gear in a fight. But he did go out and buy a chest protector that was basically bamboo strips covered with some padding and I can tell you from experience that I would rather get hit without that thing on that with it. Without it hurt where you were hit and with it hurt over your entire torso

Now to answers these individually based on my experience

But "old school, pre-Olympic non-sport TKD" also had no steps,

Wrong, we had foot work because we were training to fight

a weak or no sparring stance (generally with weight backward),

Again wrong, stance was rather centered and not back weighted and to throw in my CMA expeince Xingyiquan stance is back weighted and it hits like a truck

flippy kicks that snapped at the knee only,

Again wrong we had just about every kick that sports TKD has and an axe kick is not a flippy kick from the knoee

and non-contact punches similar to karate "sport" punches.

Not sure I never did sports karate but we had a heck of a lot of punches

But against a non-moving target (like a stack of roofing tiles),

Wrong again, we spared and it hurt

some could generate tremendous power.

ok you are right here there were those that could rip the top off a kick bag

 

[miguksaram]

Well, yeah. That's my point. He was so conditioned to pull his kick, that even in anger he couldn't pull the trigger. I'm not arguing that a roundhouse kick is ineffective. I've seen plenty of guys go lights out from a well timed kick to the noggin.

We could also say that he was doing it only to show anger and not do any real harm. Perhaps well conditioned enough to pull the kick because he wanted to. If he went by his training he would have gone for a knock out since TKD fighters train their kicks to be hard. Perhaps trying to instigate an altercation?...like that of one guy pushing another guy.

 

[miguksaram]

Nothing against sport MA and I can’t add much to this discussion but old school, pre-Olympic, non-sport TKD, as I trained it, had close in fight training and some simple locks

You trained in TKD back in the 50's?

 

[Xue Sheng]

You trained in TKD back in the 50's?

TKD became an Olympic sport, meaning becoming a medal sport in 2000 it was a demonstration sport in the 1988 games in Seoul and in 1992 in Barcelona... so I was not training in the 50s, I was trained in the early 70s from someone who was born raised and trained in Korea

your point?

 

[miguksaram]

TKD became an Olympic sport, meaning becoming a medal sport in 2000 it was a demonstration sport in the 1988 games in Seoul and in 1992 in Barcelona... so I was not training in the 50s, I was trained in the early 70s from someone who was born raised and trained in Korea

your point?

TKD pioneers had the goal of unifying and developing the sport of TKD back in the 1950's. You stated you that trained in pre-olympic, non-sport TKD. So I was just asking if if you were trained in the 50's because that would have been the only time TKD was considered "non-sport" TKD. The students of the pioneers would have been trained with the goal set by the pioneers. Unless your teacher totally went off the ranch with how he was training his students, you were actually learning sport TKD as well. Unless you did not spar at all in your classes and did nothing but poomsae and line drills.

 

[tinker1]

I've been injured far more when sparring out of the "sport tkd" realm. But that's just me. I don't like sport tkd style sparring, and I feel clumsy and awkward when I do it. I find the chest gear restricts my movement.. I'm hot, having trouble breathing, and can't move my arms and legs as I am accustomed to doing.

But this is completely because I don't do that kind of sparring much. If I were brought up in my training doing it, I'm sure I would be a proponent of it.

As to someone saying there are few injuries in non sport tkd sparring.. I beg to differ. I've had my ribs broken.. been hit hard enough in the abdomen to hit the ground for a 10 count on many occasions.. bruised ribs too.. Actually when I was in middle school, it seemed like my ribs were bruised for all those years.. I'd come to school with black eyes, cuts, contusions.. now days someone would report what was happening to me as child abuse LOL.

And since I have perfected the ancient technique of blocking punches and kicks with my face.. I've also broken my nose 4 times...

I've also had my wrist and elbow broken, as well as a couple of fingers and my right thumb broken... My left knee was severely dislocated in tournament - ended up having to have surgery because of that.

No. Training in the old traditional ways was tough. Very tough.

I think it all comes down to this.

We train others the way we were trained. Sure, we learn new techniques - modern approaches that produce a better result. And this new knowledge is ADDED to our base knowledge - it doesn't overwrite it. So when we teach, we teach from our experience.. teaching actually is giving our experience to others.

We teach what we are comfortable teaching. And what we feel comfortable with is what we were taught as we went through the ranks.

I don't believe this is a traditional vs sport thing. One is not better (in my opinion) than the other. They are different.

Each of us offers our students a particular experience in training. Some will teach the modern sport aspect. Others will teach more self defense. Still others will teach the old world traditional aspect. Those we teach will be drawn to us based on their personal preference.

 

[dancingalone]

Unless you did not spar at all in your classes and did nothing but poomsae and line drills.

I do not accept the premise that sparring must = sport. There are all sorts of ways the activity of sparring can be honed to accomplish different training goals, including targets, contact level, environment, opponents, etc.

It's true that sparring is a relatively "new" means of drilling introduced post-WWII. Nonetheless, it's far to overreaching to claim that because one spars, one perforce must be practicing a sport form of a martial art.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

TKD pioneers had the goal of unifying and developing the sport of TKD back in the 1950's. You stated you that trained in pre-olympic, non-sport TKD. So I was just asking if if you were trained in the 50's because that would have been the only time TKD was considered "non-sport" TKD. The students of the pioneers would have been trained with the goal set by the pioneers. Unless your teacher totally went off the ranch with how he was training his students, you were actually learning sport TKD as well. Unless you did not spar at all in your classes and did nothing but poomsae and line drills.

Not quite accurate. Han Moo Kwan training remained fairly non-sport till the 80's when it took a fairly dramatic turn towards sport training and competitions (at least for some HMK schools in the U.S.). The 50's is when it all began, but not every 'Kwan' took the exact same path or time line.

Just to toss this tidbit out.

 

[miguksaram]

I do not accept the premise that sparring must = sport. There are all sorts of ways the activity of sparring can be honed to accomplish different training goals, including targets, contact level, environment, opponents, etc.

It's true that sparring is a relatively "new" means of drilling introduced post-WWII. Nonetheless, it's far to overreaching to claim that because one spars, one perforce must be practicing a sport form of a martial art.

Unless you are fighting with no rules and any level of contact, what else would it be?