Spinning Back kicks.

[Jaeimseu]

I wouldn't recommend trying to grab a back kick, unless the kicker is terrible. You'd be much more likely to either eat the kick, or break your fingers, hand, or wrist. Grabbing something coming directly at you at a very high rate of speed is dangerous. If you have a high rate of success grabbing someone's back kick like this, I submit that that person doesn't know how to properly execute back kick.

If you're thinking of parrying or side-stepping and going for the grab, I'd say the same thing. If my opponent is able to grab my back kick, I've done something wrong.

 

[Gnarlie]

I wouldn't recommend trying to grab a back kick, unless the kicker is terrible. You'd be much more likely to either eat the kick, or break your fingers, hand, or wrist. Grabbing something coming directly at you at a very high rate of speed is dangerous. If you have a high rate of success grabbing someone's back kick like this, I submit that that person doesn't know how to properly execute back kick.

If you're thinking of parrying or side-stepping and going for the grab, I'd say the same thing. If my opponent is able to grab my back kick, I've done something wrong.

QFT. It's like a bullet in and out. At best it's flinch with the arms, or a coincidental piece of footwork allows evasion.

Gnarlie

 

[Zenjael]

It's had it's time and place but a lot of the kicks are garbage? Sounds pretty disrespectful to me.

In reference to this; most of the kicks involved in tricking evolved out of flashy TKD kicks. If you can find a legitimate practical and pragmatic use for any kick I name (which I consider among those garbage kicks) and it is within the realm of plausibly happening in either the street, or survival, I will take back what I said.

I don't think you're in a position to criticise air kicking, I counted quite a few in your little video. As I recall, you spent a lot of your time on one leg waving air kicks, which is just the time when you're likely to get back kicked.

Then I hope you noticed my arms. They're there for defense, not to look pretty. And if you look closely, you'll also see me do just that.

The minute the other attempts to kick back, I kick above or below the knee negating. They want to charge in, easy front side-kick to jam them. And if they actually are pressing me, it's not hard to put the leg back down. If you were to try to back-kick against me with my leg raised, you would find me on top of you before you even had your hips turned. It's common sense, when someone is turning, spinning, CHARGE.

I'm amazed people aren't bringing up the two easiest counters to a spinning, or reverse kick. Move back or to the side, striking a foot or two in front of where you were, or as they turn, to charge in, striking the base leg or anything more vulnerable which is tactically valuable. You time it right, you can even kick their backfoot which can throw them forward off balance.

 

[Cyriacus]

Sure they are not unreliable, but I don't think they should be given some siginificant meaning in teaching self defense; but it's meaningless to discuss about it because it really comes to individual will he use it on the street. Anyone should use what works for him - I think spinning wouldn't work for me so.. I just wanted to make point about risk of grabbing while kicking in mid section.

I commented in My reply to oftheherd that I dont like spinning much either.

 

[Cyriacus]

In reference to this; most of the kicks involved in tricking evolved out of flashy TKD kicks. If you can find a legitimate practical and pragmatic use for any kick I name (which I consider among those garbage kicks) and it is within the realm of plausibly happening in either the street, or survival, I will take back what I said.



Then I hope you noticed my arms. They're there for defense, not to look pretty. And if you look closely, you'll also see me do just that.

The minute the other attempts to kick back, I kick above or below the knee negating. They want to charge in, easy front side-kick to jam them. And if they actually are pressing me, it's not hard to put the leg back down. If you were to try to back-kick against me with my leg raised, you would find me on top of you before you even had your hips turned. It's common sense, when someone is turning, spinning, CHARGE.

I'm amazed people aren't bringing up the two easiest counters to a spinning, or reverse kick. Move back or to the side, striking a foot or two in front of where you were, or as they turn, to charge in, striking the base leg or anything more vulnerable which is tactically valuable. You time it right, you can even kick their backfoot which can throw them forward off balance.

I wouldn't recommend trying to grab a back kick, unless the kicker is terrible. You'd be much more likely to either eat the kick, or break your fingers, hand, or wrist. Grabbing something coming directly at you at a very high rate of speed is dangerous. If you have a high rate of success grabbing someone's back kick like this, I submit that that person doesn't know how to properly execute back kick.

If you're thinking of parrying or side-stepping and going for the grab, I'd say the same thing. If my opponent is able to grab my back kick, I've done something wrong.

Defensively used Spinning Back Kick.
Options:
Sidestep or Backstep.
Grab His Foot.
Strike the base leg.
Whine about not having Your hands up even though it would have gone right through Them.*

If Youre trying to use a back kick offensively, Youre neglecting many better options

*Theres a reason You dont hold Your guard right in front of Your face. You end up hitting Yourself in the face if Your guard gets hit by just about anything linear.

 

[Gnarlie]

In reference to this; most of the kicks involved in tricking evolved out of flashy TKD kicks. If you can find a legitimate practical and pragmatic use for any kick I name (which I consider among those garbage kicks) and it is within the realm of plausibly happening in either the street, or survival, I will take back what I said.



Then I hope you noticed my arms. They're there for defense, not to look pretty. And if you look closely, you'll also see me do just that.

The minute the other attempts to kick back, I kick above or below the knee negating. They want to charge in, easy front side-kick to jam them. And if they actually are pressing me, it's not hard to put the leg back down. If you were to try to back-kick against me with my leg raised, you would find me on top of you before you even had your hips turned. It's common sense, when someone is turning, spinning, CHARGE.

I'm amazed people aren't bringing up the two easiest counters to a spinning, or reverse kick. Move back or to the side, striking a foot or two in front of where you were, or as they turn, to charge in, striking the base leg or anything more vulnerable which is tactically valuable. You time it right, you can even kick their backfoot which can throw them forward off balance.

Your first paragraph: it's not about the kicks, it's about what you are saying about an art that people feel strongly about. You're art bashing. It's sad.

You included back kick as garbage. I've shown you that it isn't, below.

Your second paragraph: utter rubbish. Even a shabby full contact player can get past that kind of tiptap front leg play. And your arms? They don't enter into the equation when you're on one leg; a good back kick will push them onto your chest and you onto your ***.

3rd para: Shows you have no idea what you are talking about with this kick. You charge, you lose. Also, I'd avoid using 'you'. It makes one sound personal. If I personally back kicked you, you don't know what would happen.

People have already suggested that this is not a kick to throw off the line. You don't seem to be listening to that. It's one to throw when the opponent is off balance, mid step, or committed to an attack. It's usually thrown defensively, moving backwards, as in the vid Cyriacus posted. How are you going to do any of the countering you suggest when in the 0.2 seconds the kick takes to reach you, the first thing you have to do is regain your balance and get a foot back down before you can counter?

Last para: Again, rubbish. People aren't bringing up those counters because the people on this thread understand what a fast and devastating kick back kick is, and that those counters will only work if you manage to take a luckily timed step coincidentally. This kick is thrown when you are off balance. You won't be able to counter. This last paragraph tells me that you've never come up against a decent back kicker and you can't use it effectively yourself. That doesn't make the kick 'garbage'. A shoddy workman blames his tools.

The best way to deal with your lack of understanding would be to acknowledge that you might not know everything, and ask the good people of this forum 'how can I make back kick work?', rather than regaling us with fantasy stories of how you would counter our kicks.

I think you need to go test your theories against a good kicker. Everyone has a theory until they get hit.

Gnarlie

 

[Gnarlie]

Defensively used Spinning Back Kick.
Options:
Sidestep or Backstep.
Grab His Foot.
Strike the base leg.
Whine about not having Your hands up even though it would have gone right through Them.*

If Youre trying to use a back kick offensively, Youre neglecting many better options

*Theres a reason You dont hold Your guard right in front of Your face. You end up hitting Yourself in the face if Your guard gets hit by just about anything linear.

Great example.

That victim is in no position to step, kick, slide, grab or otherwise fly on Alex's magic carpet of fantasy martial arts, because he's committed fully to an attack, centre of gravity moving forward and on one leg.

Let me guess Alex: you never commit fully to an attack. You're never off balance. You've got some fantastical way of attacking without ever disturbing your centre of gravity.

Gnarlie

 

[Jaeimseu]

The minute the other attempts to kick back, I kick above or below the knee negating. They want to charge in, easy front side-kick to jam them. And if they actually are pressing me, it's not hard to put the leg back down. If you were to try to back-kick against me with my leg raised, you would find me on top of you before you even had your hips turned. It's common sense, when someone is turning, spinning, CHARGE.

I'm amazed people aren't bringing up the two easiest counters to a spinning, or reverse kick. Move back or to the side, striking a foot or two in front of where you were, or as they turn, to charge in, striking the base leg or anything more vulnerable which is tactically valuable. You time it right, you can even kick their backfoot which can throw them forward off balance.

Do you read what other people are writing?

It is readily apparent that you don't train/spar with people who know how to apply a back kick effectively. Back kick is highly effective as a simultaneous counter against round kick(really almost any kick that comes from the back leg). You are raising what if scenarios that don't happen against a good kicker. If you we're simply standing on one leg with your other leg raised, you could easily push the back kicker when he turned, but as has already been mentioned, this isn't the case. You wouldn't be just standing. You would be mid kick. If your kick wasn't committed, you would be mid slow kick and it would be that much easier to land the back kick.

The back kick can be used offensively as we'll, for example a trap back kick or thrown after the opponent is already moving back. If used correctly, none of the "counters" you mention will work.

A screwdriver is a garbage tool if you are using it to drive nails.

 

[Mauthos]

All I have to say on the matter is if anyone remembers the famous Benny 'The Jet' Uquidez (SP?) fight against the Thai champ, Benny won the fight with a devastating spinning back kick that dropped the Thai fighter instantly, who was then unable to continue.

If I recall correctly he actually broke 4 ribs with that kick.

 

[Cyriacus]

All I have to say on the matter is if anyone remembers the famous Benny 'The Jet' Uquidez (SP?) fight against the Thai champ, Benny won the fight with a devastating spinning back kick that dropped the Thai fighter instantly, who was then unable to continue.

If I recall correctly he actually broke 4 ribs with that kick.

Theres also this.

1:28.

And just to move away from TKD a bit...

Sanshou. Same kick. Same application.

If We start moving into different methods of back kicking, We can find all sorts of stuff. Just search for it, and ye shall receive. Im just linking the best examples.

 

[MJS]

Sure they are not unreliable, but I don't think they should be given some siginificant meaning in teaching self defense; but it's meaningless to discuss about it because it really comes to individual will he use it on the street. Anyone should use what works for him - I think spinning wouldn't work for me so.. I just wanted to make point about risk of grabbing while kicking in mid section.

I gave my thoughts in post #31, but perhaps I'm still misunderstanding how one goes about grabbing the kick. Again, I'm assuming you're talking about the leg first, rather than the actual foot.

 

[Zero]

Lovely kick posted by Cyriacus and Gnarlie, really enjoyable to watch (not to receive though!). Of course, as posted by Cyriacus, you could say he should have had his guard up when he threw his kick which may have prevented a KO or knock down but that's about it.

I also think the reverse kick at abdomin level, such as Benny the Jet made famous and used so devastatingly again and again, is a real beuaty - in the right situation. I generally prefer to just push this straight back rather than any circling motion as I think it is quicker and less telegraphed that way. Have run onto this kind of kick myself when thought was getting the better of a more experienced opponent who I thought was backing away from me, he suckered me big time with that! You do learn though! When doing reverse or spinning techniques, I prefer to look over shoulder with head tucked down so jaw is protected by shoulder to make sure of target but as Tez said, when you know what you are doing and have good feel for distance then this may not be needed.

That said, I have seen some terrible reverse spinning kicks thrown over the years resulting in the attacker unbalancing themselves or being too smothered when throwing the kick - such as crashing into opponent and falling over. But this has always been by novices and the like can apply to any applicaiton when thrown by a novice.

Another applicaiton of the spining rear kick is using it as a low kick to the knee of your opponent, this can be a game-ender there and then if the knee is hit either straight on or from the side with power; don't have time to get the link but Andy Hug used this a couple of times at least to brilliant effect. I have practised this a lot after watching the late-great Andy use this but never applied it as yet myself...one day...

 

[MJS]

I don't know did you readed my later posts; but yes; I believe it's easy for a spinning kick to go wrong, many people go wrong while hitting boards, and here we are talking about street which means adrenaline, slippy floor maybe, and other kinds of non friendly for spinning surroundings. Any flow in speed, accuracy, or precision in this kind of defense can be easily punished, and there is a bigger chance of occuring flaws while spinning then in bunch of other tehniques.

After that I said that my experience from training is that from a kick in mid section, grabbing is pretty natural response; and yes even untrained people know how to step in kick and twist it.

I hold spinning kicks are legitimate tool for self defense, but I really don't give significant meaning to them in self defense training (but I must admit after reading this thread, I will try to perform turning side kick in next realistic scenario training).

Hmm...ok, disregard my last post. I posted before I saw this. As for spinning kicks...personally, I'm not a huge fan of them, for the obvious reason: unless they're done quick and well timed, you're opening yourself up to potential trouble. I've done then many times in sparring, and had mixed results. Some of the time, I was lucky. It was a well timed kick, non-telegraphed, and I landed it on them with great results. The other times, well, I wasn't so lucky..lol. If my rear is on the line, no, I'm probably not going to do a spinning kick.

As for grabbing...perhaps there's still some misunderstanding. I've trained side stepping and capturing the leg. When you mention grabbing the kick, am I safe to assume this is what you mean? You're not talking about grabbing the foot, are you?

 

[MJS]

I wouldn't recommend trying to grab a back kick, unless the kicker is terrible. You'd be much more likely to either eat the kick, or break your fingers, hand, or wrist. Grabbing something coming directly at you at a very high rate of speed is dangerous. If you have a high rate of success grabbing someone's back kick like this, I submit that that person doesn't know how to properly execute back kick.

If you're thinking of parrying or side-stepping and going for the grab, I'd say the same thing. If my opponent is able to grab my back kick, I've done something wrong.

Yes! This is what I was thinking as well! When I'm sparring, I'm not thinking about grabbing a kick, and frankly, neither is the other guy I'm fighting. Parrying or side stepping...sure.

 

[MJS]

Then I hope you noticed my arms. They're there for defense, not to look pretty. And if you look closely, you'll also see me do just that.

The minute the other attempts to kick back, I kick above or below the knee negating. They want to charge in, easy front side-kick to jam them. And if they actually are pressing me, it's not hard to put the leg back down. If you were to try to back-kick against me with my leg raised, you would find me on top of you before you even had your hips turned. It's common sense, when someone is turning, spinning, CHARGE.

I'm amazed people aren't bringing up the two easiest counters to a spinning, or reverse kick. Move back or to the side, striking a foot or two in front of where you were, or as they turn, to charge in, striking the base leg or anything more vulnerable which is tactically valuable. You time it right, you can even kick their backfoot which can throw them forward off balance.

OTOH, it's always amazed me, as to why someone would stand on 1 leg, and throw out multiple kicks. Thats fine for flash, but thats about it.

 

[Zero]

Personally, in case it was not obvious from my last post, my use and advocation of spinning kicks/techniques would generaly be limited to tournament use and particularly just stand-up striking with no freestyle or MMA component. While there is a spot for everything, I do feel the risk of delivery of these kind of techniques is overshadowed by risk of rear choke/submisison or takedown if you are talking outside of the likes of a strict karate of TKD tournament. The same would apply for street fights or SD where there are no rules that shield you from the risks flowing from exposing your back if such a move is not effective.

 

[Zero]

OTOH, it's always amazed me, as to why someone would stand on 1 leg, and throw out multiple kicks. Thats fine for flash, but thats about it.

Again, while I have not used these in tournaments, I do train mulitple kicks such as multiple front leg high snap kicks, very good for stability training but with the end game of these being applicable to a tournament fight I guess. My sensei did use a front kick, first trying to hit you or feint and leaving leg up for when/if guard came down for second hit. Like a couple of jabs thrown in quick succession or a feint. Obviously not something you would use twice in any fight against anyone with experience or one that you would use much at all over your career. Absolutely acknowledge the longer a chap is on one leg the more likely of being open to a leg sweep etc but again this double kick can be done with effect, by some people, sometimes... As said never actually tried to use it in a competiiton but do for fun in sparring (although note normally while against the juniors...so generally I guess you are right). But I don't see this as completely just for flash.

The same goes for throwing a front snap kick to left side of head and then instead of from dropping foot to ground, immediately reverse to hook kick with same leg in air and having heel hit right side of head. You are right that generally these are flash and look super-cool in movies but I do practice these also, never tried it though in a fight. Again, applicaiton for sanctioned tournaments if at all, not for "real life".

 

[MJS]

Again, while I have not used these in tournaments, I do train mulitple kicks such as multiple front leg high snap kicks, very good for stability training but with the end game of these being applicable to a tournament fight I guess. My sensei did use a front kick, first trying to hit you or feint and leaving leg up for when/if guard came down for second hit. Like a couple of jabs thrown in quick succession or a feint. Obviously not something you would use twice in any fight against anyone with experience or one that you would use much at all over your career. Absolutely acknowledge the longer a chap is on one leg the more likely of being open to a leg sweep etc but again this double kick can be done with effect, by some people, sometimes... As said never actually tried to use it in a competiiton but do for fun in sparring (although note normally while against the juniors...so generally I guess you are right). But I don't see this as completely just for flash.

The same goes for throwing a front snap kick to left side of head and then instead of from dropping foot to ground, immediately reverse to hook kick with same leg in air and having heel hit right side of head. You are right that generally these are flash and look super-cool in movies but I do practice these also, never tried it though in a fight. Again, applicaiton for sanctioned tournaments if at all, not for "real life".

To clarify, I've trained and thrown mult. kicks during sparring. Low high roundhouse kicks, a low hook into a high roundhouse, etc. I've had success, as I've caught the other guy off guard a few times. However, there was a video on here, that Zenjael posted. He's throwing out numerous air kicks, with from what I could see, no purpose behind them. I'm also curious as to the power factor, once we start approaching any more than 2 kicks with the same leg. Ex: Someone standing on 1 leg, throwing out 6 kicks.

 

[grumpywolfman]

So I was taught that the spinning Back kick is simply a reverse close kneel, look over your shoulder, and kick; however I have also seen them done as a pirouette with the kicking leg cocked high. Which one do you advocate? or do you see them as two useful concepts? un-useful?
Sean

Hello,

I.M.O., the best use for spinning back kicks are for demonstration purposes only. Beautiful and powerful kicks, they illustrate great skill of the practioner and may be fun if you can pull one off in a tournament; however, not necessary or practical for self defense. Please don't over do it when training these kicks. Because of the great amount of torque that can be generated by spinning back kicks, you can easily cause an injury to your lower back that will require Chiropractic adjustment for many years to come.

 

[WC_lun]

There are many different kinds of back kicks. I suppose they all have thier place and some of them can certainly generate lots of power. My personal belief is I don't like them or use them much. I am very uncomfortable with turning my back and losing sight of where they are, even if momentarily. Back in the day I had a pretty good back kick. Then I ran into really good fighters that knew what to do when a back kick was coming in. They would use angles, moving very quick to get off line then come crashing back into me while my back was turned. That would lead to me going into recovery mode immediatley, which is never a good thing. I am sure there are others who have better luck with back kicks, but I'm no Cung Le, so I'll stick with what I consider more safe techniques.

One of my beliefs in self defense is do not train a technique because it can work, if all the cirumstances are aligned correctly. I believe you train to be the safest you can be while addressing whatever threat has arisen. That means simple and effecient techniques. I do not want to commit to a technique that will leave me exposed if I fail, unless I absolutely have to. This is my preference.