Something to think about

MAist25

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So I'm taking a philosophy class at college and one of the things we were discussing recently was how the world is like a prison. We are expected to act, dress, talk, a certain way, etc. or else we get what my professor calls "the they" look. It is that look you get when you do something out of the ordinary that is not "socially acceptable", i guess you could say. If you take the time to think about all the things you do simply because you "have to" in order to fit in, this theory of the world being a prison seems to make more and more sense to me. Now that I have this theory in my mind, I am noticing more and more when I do things just to do them so I do not stand out and get "the they" look.

And then I got thinking to the one place where I feel like I am free from this prison; the dojang. When I'm training, I lose all sense of the outside world. There's no homework, papers, stress, even things like styles of clothing, and other materialistic nonsense simply does not exist in the dojang. I think that many martial artists probably get this same sense if the martial arts are something they truly love to do and I wonder if this short euphoric experience I get from training is what freedom from "the they" really feels like and if there are other ways to escape the prison we are all trapped in. I'm not sure where I'm trying to go with this thread but I would like to hear what you all have to think. I think this topic could generate some good conversation.
 

Monroe

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I've never been good at following socially acceptable, especially when things get personal. I was shocked by how rude the questions were while I was pregnant. Questions about my sex life from complete strangers. Questions about how I planned to get the baby out and what condition my vagina would be in afterwards. Questions about my breasts. Rubbing my belly without my permission. All of this private stuff that suddenly became fair game. I lost my temper a few times and gave sarcastic responses and questions in return. Have you been circumcised and how many inches long are you? Are your breasts real and have you considered it's high time you get a nose job?

I find it's best to avoid the general population a lot of the time because I'm not usually interested in following being socially acceptable.
 

Cyriacus

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Ive never encountered any issues with Social Form.
If you have a Glimmer of Self Control, its usually just a matter of not Speaking your Mind. Which I consider to be a good thing to abide, regardless.

And if other People are doing things which you do not like; You should perhaps associate yourself with different People.
Because 99% of the time, thats the Problem.
Not just the fact that its the General Populace.
 

jks9199

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You'd need to expand on that comparison a bit for me. I think there are a lot of things very off about that comparison.
 

Tez3

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I've never been good at following socially acceptable, especially when things get personal. I was shocked by how rude the questions were while I was pregnant. Questions about my sex life from complete strangers. Questions about how I planned to get the baby out and what condition my vagina would be in afterwards. Questions about my breasts. Rubbing my belly without my permission. All of this private stuff that suddenly became fair game. I lost my temper a few times and gave sarcastic responses and questions in return. Have you been circumcised and how many inches long are you? Are your breasts real and have you considered it's high time you get a nose job?

I find it's best to avoid the general population a lot of the time because I'm not usually interested in following being socially acceptable.

Some of that is very weird, I've never been asked any of that. Perhaps it's unique to the people around you, frankly I really think I'd move if they are like that.
 

seasoned

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In my earlier years the dojo did alleviate somewhat the situation you are talking about because of the tenants of martial arts. But, once I hit my 60's I just didn't give a s _ _ t anymore............. :)
 

Buka

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While you are in the dojang you are expected to dress in uniform, act respectful, probably use certain words (names of techniques) that you had never used before, bow in group unison, perhaps kneel, do movements at the same time as others.......oh my God, you're back in prison!

I'm just funnin' with you. :) I love being in a dojo, too.
 

Jenna

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Society IS simply a set of guidelines to control the populus.

Yet it is one prison that NOTHING except your own need to conform to your own set of social norms stops you escaping from.

Does the dojo represent freedom? As Buka says, it is surely one place where expression of individuality is regarded as bad form? Conformity is expressely required when performing forms / kata, or when learning technique, even free randori or sparring is subject to rules and certain conventions - no direct strikes to face, no strikes to groin area, no this, no that. In some Aikido dojos we were expected to bow out of respect to O'Sensei. If that is not yielding to control, I do not know what is.

I think you are free to practice your art as your preferences dictate, however that is on your own time. In your dojo, it is exclusively dojo rules and etiquette surely, no?
 

Monroe

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Some of that is very weird, I've never been asked any of that. Perhaps it's unique to the people around you, frankly I really think I'd move if they are like that.

Communicating with other mothers online, they've dealt with the same bizarre and rude questions while pregnant. I've been asked questions like this while pregnant in Canada, UK and the US.

Examples: Were you trying to get pregnant? (Sidestep this question because an answer will open up to more questions about your sex life.)

Are you having a c-section? (Replying no can lead to a discussion about stretched out vagina's and horror stories. Some people just love to tell you horror stories.)

Are you dialated? (This can be followed up by more horrific details.)

Are you planning on breastfeeding? (I get to hear all about their breasts or their wife's breasts, at times followed up with questions about my breasts.)

A lot of people just about everywhere feel compelled to pet pregnant bellies. http://pregnancy.about.com/cs/symptoms/a/handsoff.htm

Do a google search of the questions women get asked while pregant, it happens everywhere.
 

oftheherd1

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MAist25 - Taking your professor's view to the extreme, you might have to retire to a hermit's retreat in a cave. In order to be part of a society you have to conform to most, if not all of the society norms. Failure at a certain level will usually result in expulsion at the least, and incarceration or death at the worst. Getting "the look" could be a pretty benign reaction.

Normally when one has been raised in a society, one will agree with most of the norms any way. You might ask your professor for his comments on that. Or if you should be seeking a different society, such as prison, or a gang, where there are norms you prefer. Apparently your professor doesn't mind conforming (or he likely wouldn't be a professor), and I bet he has some rules of his own, such as classroom demeanor, being tested, and class participation. He probably wouldn't approve of you disrupting the class by removing your clothing and performing kata.

I wouldn't buy into his assertion too much, but I expect he is just trying to get you to think about the norms of society, and a person's need to conform at least partially to stay in a society. Societies provide companionship and protection. Unless you really want to be a hermit, you either have to search for a society like you want, or conform to enough norms to stay in the society you are in.
 

Buka

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My guess, since it's a philosophy class, is his goal is to make you think. I think it might be fun to just go with it and let your ideas and feelings fly. In philosphy there's fewer wrong answers than in most other classes.

Since you train in the fighting arts, AND take philosophy - you might be considered a Philosoraptor! :)
 

oftheherd1

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Communicating with other mothers online, they've dealt with the same bizarre and rude questions while pregnant. I've been asked questions like this while pregnant in Canada, UK and the US.

Examples: Were you trying to get pregnant? (Sidestep this question because an answer will open up to more questions about your sex life.)

Are you having a c-section? (Replying no can lead to a discussion about stretched out vagina's and horror stories. Some people just love to tell you horror stories.)

Are you dialated? (This can be followed up by more horrific details.)

Are you planning on breastfeeding? (I get to hear all about their breasts or their wife's breasts, at times followed up with questions about my breasts.)

A lot of people just about everywhere feel compelled to pet pregnant bellies. http://pregnancy.about.com/cs/symptoms/a/handsoff.htm

Do a google search of the questions women get asked while pregant, it happens everywhere.

Monroe - those are some of the most bizarre questions I can imagine. My wife never mentioned anyone asking her the type of question you mentioned above or in your first post, male or female. Nor has my daughter who is now in her third pregnancy. I expect if females did, my wife would have answered some, and told them others were just none of their business and lacking in propriety to be asked. Some of them, if it were a male asking, I would be very tempted to talk to them myself, telling them how I felt about such questions and letting the conversation go where it might (actually, I would want to control where it went, and avoid physical confrontation if possible). My daughter has her own husband who would have to determine his own course of action.
 

Bill Mattocks

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MAist25 - Taking your professor's view to the extreme, you might have to retire to a hermit's retreat in a cave. In order to be part of a society you have to conform to most, if not all of the society norms. Failure at a certain level will usually result in expulsion at the least, and incarceration or death at the worst. Getting "the look" could be a pretty benign reaction.

Normally when one has been raised in a society, one will agree with most of the norms any way. You might ask your professor for his comments on that. Or if you should be seeking a different society, such as prison, or a gang, where there are norms you prefer. Apparently your professor doesn't mind conforming (or he likely wouldn't be a professor), and I bet he has some rules of his own, such as classroom demeanor, being tested, and class participation. He probably wouldn't approve of you disrupting the class by removing your clothing and performing kata.

I wouldn't buy into his assertion too much, but I expect he is just trying to get you to think about the norms of society, and a person's need to conform at least partially to stay in a society. Societies provide companionship and protection. Unless you really want to be a hermit, you either have to search for a society like you want, or conform to enough norms to stay in the society you are in.

I absolutely agree. Any society - every society - has norms. They cannot be objectively 'good' or 'bad', they simply are what they are. Some people can live within them and others find them restricting, while still others are utterly incapable of conforming to any society requirement.

Let's say you have a society of two people. Just you and one other person. That person feels it's pretty much a good thing to smear his feces on everything. Himself, his stuff, your stuff, even you. You don't care for this behavior and you ask him to stop. If he wants to remain part of your society, he is going to have to do that, or he'll have to make a counter-proposal and you'll have to accept that. Either that or he leaves and that's the end of your society.

Are either one of you living in a prison? Are you being oppressed by the other? Is it an unfair restriction on his rights to ask him not to smear poop on your stuff? Is it unfair of you to ask him not to smear it on himself when he's around you?

You might think this is an extreme example, and it is. But it an accurate example of how norms arise and how they become part of the 'rules', official or unofficial, of societies.

Here's an example of an unofficial rule; if you tattoo your face with obscenities, you won't get a job where you work with the public in bank, say, or a courtroom, or elected to a public office.

Is it legal to tattoo your face? Sure. With obscenities? Maybe, maybe not (might depend on where you live). Is it 'unfair' that can't get a job in a bank wearing a suit if you have the word 'penis' tattooed on your forehead? Sure, I guess. But it is something society wants. Perhaps that may change in time; social mores do change with location and time. But for now, it's an unwritten rule, and you WILL comply or you will suffer the consequences (no job in a bank). Sadly, some people refuse to see this as what it is, instead they ***** and moan about how "the man is keeping me down." Well, yes and no. Society wants what it wants. If you're in step with that, you'll do well. If not, you'll be prodded to get with the program, or you'll be excluded.

For what it's worth, every generation goes through a period of questioning social mores and deciding that what society wants is unfair and arbitrary. Every generation produces a large group who complain about the unjustness of society. Every generation produces a large subset of those people who eventually decide to go along with the program. Every generation has a few who just can't or won't for whatever reason. And every generation thinks they are the first to figure out that life is unfair to individuals and only rewards those who compromise with the rules of society.
 

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In my opinion, everything in life comes with a price tag. Your willingness to pay the price is dictated by how much you want that thing. If you want to be part of a certain group or society, you pay the price of conforming to their ways. In most cases, you can decide to opt out and not conform/pay if you are not that motivated by the end result.

In a lot of ways, I think the reason MA feels so freeing is that we are opting out of the current societal trend of expecting someone else to solve all our problems and to protect us. We are taking steps to do it ourselves.
 

Steve

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So I'm taking a philosophy class at college and one of the things we were discussing recently was how the world is like a prison. We are expected to act, dress, talk, a certain way, etc. or else we get what my professor calls "the they" look. It is that look you get when you do something out of the ordinary that is not "socially acceptable", i guess you could say. If you take the time to think about all the things you do simply because you "have to" in order to fit in, this theory of the world being a prison seems to make more and more sense to me. Now that I have this theory in my mind, I am noticing more and more when I do things just to do them so I do not stand out and get "the they" look.

And then I got thinking to the one place where I feel like I am free from this prison; the dojang. When I'm training, I lose all sense of the outside world. There's no homework, papers, stress, even things like styles of clothing, and other materialistic nonsense simply does not exist in the dojang. I think that many martial artists probably get this same sense if the martial arts are something they truly love to do and I wonder if this short euphoric experience I get from training is what freedom from "the they" really feels like and if there are other ways to escape the prison we are all trapped in. I'm not sure where I'm trying to go with this thread but I would like to hear what you all have to think. I think this topic could generate some good conversation.
Interesting that this came up in a philosophy class. Using the term "prison" carries some pretty heavy connotations and presupposes that conforming is bad. A value judgement is being made even before we observe the behavior. In other words, being aware of the efforts (or lack of effort) we make to conform is probably a good thing. Presuming that this is a trap or a prison is debatable.

I'd argue that it's not whether we conform or not. We do. The real key is in how we conform and whether we do so consciously and with intention. In other words, do we bumble along, blithely conforming, or do we choose our battles? Do we have a sense of scale or are we known for rocking the boat over trivial matters (I'm guilty of this around here sometimes :)?

And then, regarding the Dojang, it's not liberation from conformation. It's really just a different set of expectations... often even more rigid than outside the school walls. Wear these clothes. Behave in this way. Say these things using these words. Hup! Be here these days. Now LEAD. Hold others accountable to the norms you've been taught. Don't deviate from the system.

Philosophy class is a great place to stir the pot and generate some discussion. My recommendation is to push back on your professor. In this case, accepting his theory without challenging it only serves to prove him right. :)
 
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MAist25

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Yea, this whole topic just got me thinking. Some of the examples he brought up were things like simply going to college. He stated how he sees kids slowly meandering their way to class with their heads down, dragging their feet, etc. He brought up the point that it seems a lot of kids go to college simply because that's what everybody else around you is doing. Do we do things because we really want to or because we "have" to. Isn't that true for a lot of things? I see people waking up for work everyday miserable because they dislike their jobs. Maybe the whole "choose your battles" things holds some weight because you sometimes need to do things you don't necessarily want to do but it will help you in the long run if you do them. But how do you know you're going to be around for the long run? You could drop dead tomorrow. Do people worry too much about a future they may never get to see rather than living the life they want to right then and there?

As for the retreating to the woods and becoming a hermit, yea I agree that would probably be the only way to escape the so-called "prison" of society. My professor is not against conformity as he believes it is necessary for the world to function, but the fact that we do things simply because society tells us to or we feel compelled to in order to not look out of place. If you are in an elevator, notice how many people immediately pull out their cell phones to avoid the "awkwardness" of standing around someone in silence. Notice how afraid people are of silence, or of looking like they aren't doing something. People are always "plugged in" whether it be talking on the phone, texting, listening to an ipod, etc. It's almost as if anytime people get away from the prison they seem to feel awkward or lost and constantly try to plug themselves back in.
 

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