SOKE or not to SOKE that is the Question

[VSanhodo]

Hi Folks:

Years ago I met a man whom for sake of conversation will remain nameless for now. He is the head of a rather large Christian Based Martial arts Organization. He holds the title of Soke. When I asked him for his creditentials he was kind enough to provide them to me. His list includes over 20 seperate black belts some of which were clearly listed as honorary. While others were not. His highest legit rank was a 3rd Dan.
These days there are so many Soke groupds most of which are in my opinion BS groups. So my question is this, What creditentials should a person have to become a Soke? Also,
Personally I feel their should be some type of testing board and more importantly a persons creditentails should somehow have to be verified not just a pat on the back in a good ole boy group and then pooof your a Soke.
I welcome any and all feedback.
Thanks
San

 

[MichiganTKD]

I would very leery. These Soke organizations tend to populated by self-promoted, self-promoting yahoos who claim to have invented their own styles. As you noticed yourself, very few of their ranks are legitimately earned. Many of them are "honorary", based on knowing the right people. Also, they also claim to be "Grandmasters" in the styles they invented. I read about at least one character who claims to be 10th Dan in Kickboxing, which is kind of like claiming to be 10th Dan in baseball or soccer. My advice? Stay away from them. Let them go around congratulating each other and signing each others' rank certificates (whatever that's worth), but keep your distance.

 

[Drac]

I would very leery. These Soke organizations tend to populated by self-promoted, self-promoting yahoos who claim to have invented their own styles. As you noticed yourself, very few of their ranks are legitimately earned. Many of them are "honorary", based on knowing the right people. Also, they also claim to be "Grandmasters" in the styles they invented. I read about at least one character who claims to be 10th Dan in Kickboxing, which is kind of like claiming to be 10th Dan in baseball or soccer. My advice? Stay away from them. Let them go around congratulating each other and signing each others' rank certificates (whatever that's worth), but keep your distance.

I hear ya talking and I agree...

 

[James Kovacich]

Taking into consideration how long martial arts have been in the USA now and how many masters have had broken ties with their arts counties of origin.

We are not saying that there shouldn't be any grandmasters here, are we?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

There should be grandmasters, but it's reaching ridiculous proportions. More masters than students.

"Soke" is a term for what, in American culture, might correlate to the President of an organization, or CEO. Many stockholders (practitioners), a dozen or so board members (senior black belts or Master ranks), but only one Commander in Chief (Grand-Master). There SHOULD be only one Soke per style/system, but thanks to the politics of ego, there are many, most in systems that didn't exist until the guy "Soke-ing" them made them up.

Many posts on MT yakkin bout this. Look 'em up, and you may have your questions answered.

D.

 

[James Kovacich]

I know the answers. Really a matter of opinion it general terms but I do agree with you about it reaching rediculous proportions. I think we should at least be aligned with a "worthy" grandmaster and all is well. :asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

There are very few Real Soke's who aren't Japanese. It's a Japanese title, much misunderstood, much abused, and most often bought through some suposed "council" to make the person seem more important than they really are.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Not agreeing or disagreeing withthe title of Soke but just some thoughts on the original questions.

If a person is going to claim this title I belive they should have a minimum of 35-40 years in the arts with at least 25 years in one art and 10 in another that have been combined into their own art. Now that dose not mean 25 in epac and 10 in traceys or 25 in wtf 10 in mdk but 25 in one art and 10 in an art that is not even close to the first one in what it is about. I also think that a person claiming or looking for this title should have beem awarded at least his/her fifth degree (not an honorary one), in at least one art.
The new style should be just that something new not a rehashing of forms from 2 or 3 styles and words from another.
If the person can not show that what they are doing is so innovative as to be called something new they do not deserve the title
These are my thoughts only and are not ment to flame anyone

 

[RRouuselot]

Hi Folks:

Years ago I met a man whom for sake of conversation will remain nameless for now. He is the head of a rather large Christian Based Martial arts Organization. He holds the title of Soke. When I asked him for his creditentials he was kind enough to provide them to me. His list includes over 20 seperate black belts some of which were clearly listed as honorary. While others were not. His highest legit rank was a 3rd Dan.
These days there are so many Soke groupds most of which are in my opinion BS groups. So my question is this, What creditentials should a person have to become a Soke? Also,
Personally I feel their should be some type of testing board and more importantly a persons creditentails should somehow have to be verified not just a pat on the back in a good ole boy group and then pooof your a Soke.
I welcome any and all feedback.
Thanks
San

Is it William Durbin?

 

[Don Roley]

My own opinion...

Non-Japanese should not call themselves soke. English is a perfectly good language and they can call themselves "Director", "Head Instructor," "Founder" or any number of names that do not give people the impression that the art is anything other than non-Japanese made. What did Bruce Lee call himself? Not Soke. And Ed Parker? IIRC, he went out of his way to avoid non-English terms in order to make it clear that what he did was American and not Asian.

As for people trying to gain the same equivelent rank of what they think a soke would be, Miyamoto Musashi who wrote the Book or Five Rings states in it that he really didn't understand swordsmanship until he hit about 50. Considering the fact that he probably killed more people by age 30 than most American "sokes" have had fist fights with, I think that we should defer to his greater wisdom and look for someone who has hit at least that age, and trained for about the same amount of time. I.e. about 40 years or so.

 

[RRouuselot]

As for people trying to gain the same equivelent rank of what they think a soke would be, Miyamoto Musashi who wrote the Book or Five Rings states in it that he really didn't understand swordsmanship until he hit about 50. Considering the fact that he probably killed more people by age 30 than most American "sokes" have had fist fights with, I think that we should defer to his greater wisdom and look for someone who has hit at least that age, and trained for about the same amount of time. I.e. about 40 years or so.

And killed about as many people too

 

[VSanhodo]

Is it William Durbin?

If you go to the thread regarding Info wanted on Motobuha Shito Ryu you will read my post and it will be clear as to whom I am refering.
Thanks by the way for your input, I appreciate it very much. It is a great breath of fresh air to finally meet someone who actually knows what they are tlaking about and not a BS artist as are soooooooooooooooooooooo many of the ppl out there who believe they are gods gift to martial arts

 

[VSanhodo]

First let me say, I am not interested nor qualifed to begin my own system or be the head of my own system. Ive been a student of the Martial Sciences for just over 35 years. I hold a 7th dan in JuJitsu (Classical not BJJ or GJJ).

Now with all that being said, there are numerous Soke orginazations out there and a tremendous number of Soke's, Grand Masters and Masters etc. Most of these groups and frankly individuals are nothing more than BS groups and bogus belt holders.

When I began in the arts years ago there were only a handfull of legit instructors. These days instructors are a dime a dozen. When I began it was nearly unheard of to open your own school or be considered to be a head instructor with less than a 4th Dan ranking. This was for a reason. I use to do a lot of seminars and I cant begin to tell you how many schools and instructors I was able to meet over the years. Being as honest as I can be, The number of instructors who taught at that time and frankly these day as well, who truly have little understanding of their own systems.

The emphasis today is much more sport oriented and far less emphasis is placed on a deep thourgh understanding of ones art. I dont care if you hold a 27th degree black belt. Degrees dont impress me, Depth of knowledge and the ability to use it, share it and teach it are far more impressive.

I cant tell you how many schools Ive visited that require X number of new techniques be taught for each level. Kata and its application (Bunkai) are all but a lost in todays society of overnight wonders and wannabeessss. Basics or the fundamentals (Kihon) are not taught that often anymore either. What is taught is mostly BS by under qualified black belts but over rated wannabeeeeess. This is promoted more and more and more. The message today is not quality rather it is quanitity, How quickly can schools get someone to black belt. Belts serve three purposes in my opinion.
1: They generate revenue for the schools
2: They serve as a tool to boost students egos
3: They help hold up your pants.

Belts do not show ability nor knowledge, nor do uniforms or patches.

I dont care how popular and well known most of these SOKE Councils, groups, orginazations etc are. If a person truly deserves to become a member of such a group or become a Hall of Fame inductee why should that person be required to pay fees for certificates. This is an honor to have such things bestowed upon a person. to charge for such a thing cheapens the meaning and value of it.

If you meet someone who claims to be a Soke, Grandmaster, Master etc. Ask to see their qualifications and try to verify them. 99% of the people out there who make such claims and hold such titles simply cant offer crediable credientials. In other posts Ive read about persons such as Soke Reidner, Soke Freedom, Soke Van Camp, Soke Kuniba and a few others. I know all of these men. Soke Kuniba has passed and I will not talk about him other than to say Thank you for finding me worhty enough to share your knowledge and skill with me. The other men mentioned are very nice men, but in my humble opinion none are qualifed to hold such titles as GrandMaster or Soke.

I want to thank each of you who have posted here and welcome any and all imput. I defer to what I said before. If these titles and ranks are such a presitgious honor whay are people charged to the honor and privledge of recieving them. I have no problem with Belt testing fees, I too have owned a commercial dojo (No longer) and understand recouping exspenses and generating revenue. But not for recieving the aformentioned.

Be cautious and check peoples credientials, I dont care what rank or title they hold or how well known they or the group they belong too may be. I woudnt heistate to ask my dodctor for his / her creditentials, yet we will send our children to these Yahooooos who make Bogus claims, We spend our hard earned money to be fooled.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

San

 

[James Kovacich]

My own opinion...

Non-Japanese should not call themselves soke. English is a perfectly good language and they can call themselves "Director", "Head Instructor," "Founder" or any number of names that do not give people the impression that the art is anything other than non-Japanese made. What did Bruce Lee call himself? Not Soke. And Ed Parker? IIRC, he went out of his way to avoid non-English terms in order to make it clear that what he did was American and not Asian.

As for people trying to gain the same equivelent rank of what they think a soke would be, Miyamoto Musashi who wrote the Book or Five Rings states in it that he really didn't understand swordsmanship until he hit about 50. Considering the fact that he probably killed more people by age 30 than most American "sokes" have had fist fights with, I think that we should defer to his greater wisdom and look for someone who has hit at least that age, and trained for about the same amount of time. I.e. about 40 years or so.

I've grown to not like the word Soke but I do acchknowledge that Grandmasters exist and is achieveable within the differant systems of the world.

My Sigung developed his own system back in the '60's -70's and still teaches it. When I first started training under his son his son he called it James Lee Gung Fu.

Today they call it the Tao of Gung Fu still giving credit to James Lee but acknowledging the evolution that is taken into a new system. Sifu is the "sole inheritor" to his fathers system. That would make him a Grandmaster. He won't say it. He won't evem call himself a master.

But my example is just showing that No ONE can stake claim to their system and there is or should be a differance between a Grandmaster and a Soke.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Yes, Grandmasters do exist. However, there is a difference between earning the rank through a legitimate martial arts organization that has standards, and bestowing the title on yourself. When you earn the rank of Grandmaster through a recognized organization, that means:

1. You have devoted your life, or a good deal of it, to the practice and promotion of your chosen style.

2. You are a recognized world leader in your chosen art.

3. You are old enough and wise enough to bear the responsibilities of a Grandmaster. There are no legitimate 40 year old Grandmasters, in the real sense of the word.

Now having said that, these Soke organizations are a joke, because the members violate pretty much every rule of being a Grandmaster. Most of them look pretty young, some of them not much older than me.

Instead of being a recognized world leader in their art, they declare their own art and name themselves Grandmaster. Of course, they are 10th Dan. One enterprising "Soke" founded the art of Nelson-Ryu. With himself as 10th Dan founder. Guess what his last name was?
Always makes me laugh to see a Tae Kwon Do instructor list themselves as Grandmaster and member of these organizations, and I've never heard of them. Especially a Chung Do Kwan "Grandmaster" with an American name. Trust me, there are not many legitimate American-born Chung Do Kwan Grandmasters in this country.

They seem to take great pleasure in signing rank certificates of other members of the "Council". Like that lends any credibility to these documents. If I am a Tae Kwon Do Instructor, why would I need some self-promoted phony signing his name to my certificates? It adds nothing to them, and if anything devalues them.

All they seem to do is walk around with their chests puffed out congratulating each other on how great they are.

 

[searcher]

There are very few Real Soke's who aren't Japanese. It's a Japanese title, much misunderstood, much abused, and most often bought through some suposed "council" to make the person seem more important than they really are.

Very well put. My primary style is Okinawan and upon asking who the soke of my style is I was simply laughed at. You are correct about the term being Japanese, the Okinawans don't have it anywhere in their systems to my knowledge.

I read an article in Black Belt about the whole issue of rank and title. In short, it stated "yaers ago being a black belt was good enough, then you had to be an instructor or you were a nobody, next master or you were just one in the crowd, then grandmaster, and now it is soke." The whole article was about where will all of this stop. Will there be new titles made up to make some feel better about what they do? Any thoughts on this?

 

[James Kovacich]

Yes, Grandmasters do exist. However, there is a difference between earning the rank through a legitimate martial arts organization that has standards, and bestowing the title on yourself. When you earn the rank of Grandmaster through a recognized organization, that means:

1. You have devoted your life, or a good deal of it, to the practice and promotion of your chosen style.

2. You are a recognized world leader in your chosen art.

3. You are old enough and wise enough to bear the responsibilities of a Grandmaster. There are no legitimate 40 year old Grandmasters, in the real sense of the word.

Now having said that, these Soke organizations are a joke, because the members violate pretty much every rule of being a Grandmaster. Most of them look pretty young, some of them not much older than me.

Instead of being a recognized world leader in their art, they declare their own art and name themselves Grandmaster. Of course, they are 10th Dan. One enterprising "Soke" founded the art of Nelson-Ryu. With himself as 10th Dan founder. Guess what his last name was?
Always makes me laugh to see a Tae Kwon Do instructor list themselves as Grandmaster and member of these organizations, and I've never heard of them. Especially a Chung Do Kwan "Grandmaster" with an American name. Trust me, there are not many legitimate American-born Chung Do Kwan Grandmasters in this country.

They seem to take great pleasure in signing rank certificates of other members of the "Council". Like that lends any credibility to these documents. If I am a Tae Kwon Do Instructor, why would I need some self-promoted phony signing his name to my certificates? It adds nothing to them, and if anything devalues them.

All they seem to do is walk around with their chests puffed out congratulating each other on how great they are.

Why assume they ALL are self promoting? And assume they ALL are young? And where is the need to be affiliated with the parent art?

No truly American Martial Art can be?
"1. You have devoted your life, or a good deal of it, to the practice and promotion of your chosen style.

2. You are a recognized world leader in your chosen art.

3. You are old enough and wise enough to bear the responsibilities of a Grandmaster. There are no legitimate 40 year old Grandmasters, in the real sense of the word."

 

[MichiganTKD]

Ahh, affiliated with a Soke Council are we? I must have hit a nerve.

 

[loki09789]

As far as business identity...anyone can claim the title SOKE. There is no law that makes the term exclusively one person/groups over another. Though Japanese in origin, the term has been adopted/appropriated by American martial artists regardless of ethnic origins of their particular system.

Ethically, there are going to be some differences.

Personally:

1. If the 'SokeShip Council' is staffed with Credible GM's, then I would say that their recognition is flattering and also bestows a certain responsibility on the recipient of that recognition to be just as credible.

2. Sokeship Coucils don't award anyone a title or rank as much as simply say that they recognize a person and their curriculum as developed enough and substantial enough to stand alone and be distinct in some way...that doesn't mean that everyone has to recognize that person or system.

3. There is an academic/institutional tradition of 'defending' your work that a SokeShip council can be paralleled to unlike a self promoted GM/Soke. If someone is internally (therefore promoted by those who would rely on that individual for future promotions) to the rank of "Soke/Systemhead/GM" or what ever claim of promotion they want to make a clear conflict of interest exists.

We really only hear about the approved/endorsed applications sent to sokeship councils. Does anyone know how many applicants are turned down by these groups? If so, based on what criteria are applicants/curriculums endorsed/rejected? If there is rejection, is councel provided to let the applicant know what needs to be improved?

 

[James Kovacich]

Ahh, affiliated with a Soke Council are we? I must have hit a nerve.

No, I'm not. I'm afffiliated with those who are though. Thats why I ask. Loki hit the direction I was headed.

Everyone is quick to assume that they are all wrong in their agenda "based" on other peoples words. Many of these people are the humblest people you could meet and large numbers of people, including some on MT have sought advice from these same people.

Whose "WORTHY" of casting the first stone?