Bruce Lee. Master or Not?

[sammy3170]

I've read a very interesting book recently which bought up something I hadn't thought of. Robert W Smiths Martial Musings talks a little about Bruce Lee and the point he makes that is most interesting to me is that Bruce Lee started with Yip Man at around 13 years of age and left for America around 18 years of age. That doesn't give him a great deal of time training in the martial arts. Now I'm not saying he couldn't fight because I know he had a lot of street fights but I know guys who can fight and have never done martial arts. What accreditation did he have and why is he held in such high esteem. Is it because of the movies or is it because of something else? I've trained in the martial arts under an instructor for longer than he did. What makes a master? I'm just asking the question for interests sake. I've recently left my school because my 'master' was not such a master after all.
Anyway have a super day guys.

Cheers
Sammy

 

[arnisador]

You'll find some threads on this in the JKD forum. He didn't complete his Wing Chun training but did learn boxing and studied many things from many people. I don't think he had 'accreditation' in the traditional sense, but he wasn't just a good fighter. Look at some of his own writings, like what he did while laid up in the hospital--he was a true student of the martial arts.

 

[Flatlander]

Hello Arnisador. We haven't formally met, I'm Dan. *offering handshake*

He didn't complete his Wing Chun training

Does anyone ever complete any type of martial art training?

Look at some of his own writings, like what he did while laid up in the hospital--he was a true student of the martial arts.

He was indeed. I echo the sentiment here; you ought to read some of Bruce's books in order to get a real sense of the contribution that he made. When you put Bruce's ideas into the context of the times when they were written, they were really rather unique in the time that he was espousing them.

So the question becomes, how do you define "master"? Was he a master of any one particular art? Perhaps not, but he was a master of his own philosophy. How many belts did he own? Is that important?

Bruce Lee will be viewed in different ways by different people. I see him as having been a martial art prophet. He brought some really good ideas to the table, he contributed in a very tangible way to the proliferation of martial arts in North America - perhaps even around the world. Does that make him a Master? I don't really know.

 

[arnisador]

Does anyone ever complete any type of martial art training?

Hi Dan! I agree with you. I was referring to the fact--well, I think it's a fact--that he only learned the first two of the three standard Wing Chun empty-hand forms. So, I should have said that he wasn't taught the whole system.

 

[JKD_Silat]

Hi Dan! I agree with you. I was referring to the fact--well, I think it's a fact--that he only learned the first two of the three standard Wing Chun empty-hand forms. So, I should have said that he wasn't taught the whole system.

Jimmi Hendrix couldnt read sheet music, let alone had any kind of formal training. Is he less of a "master" guitarist for that? Caravaggio, the man who invented the concept of Chiaroscurro (usage of light and shading to give paintings a 3d look, and feeling of depth) just picked up a paint brush in his middle age. With no training.
What prior training did the nun who founded Wing Chun have? Well, she did actualy have prior training, however, like Bruce, she felt it was inadequate for her, and , like Bruce, modified it into her own system. We know this system today as Wing Chun. Sigung Bruce not only founded an art/point of view/method of training, his influence can be felt globaly to this day. Example of influence .Look at the opening fight sequence in Enter the Dragon vs. Sammo Heung. Fast forward 30 years and look at MMA events. The Vale Tudo glove, and shorts. Use of combat in all ranges effectively. Ending the fight by submission.
I will contend that there are other considerations other than formal training that would qualify one a master in thier respective art. Changing the would we live in for the better through thier art IMHO is a as good a benchmark as any to start with.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

Just look at the guys life story lol, then you see how much training, he pratically training physically and psychologically every day. Chuck Norris once said that If Bruce wasnt training in Martial Arts he was thinking about Martial Arts from the time he got up in the morning till the time he went to bed. People dont appreciate how much of this guy's life was totally into MA, completely!

 

[Chronuss]

Now I'm not saying he couldn't fight because I know he had a lot of street fights but I know guys who can fight and have never done martial arts.

...don't believe he was in many street fights.

 

[terryl965]

Official Master by today standerds NO. But then again today standerds mean nothing to a man that was way ahead of he's time. His style and understanding of the way a fight must go was atleast extrodinary atleast. Just my personal opion.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Didn't he die young?

 

[MichiganTKD]

There is a difference between admiring aspects of the guy's life, and worshipping the ground he walked on. For some people, criticising Bruce Lee is tantamount to criticizing Jesus. I'll admit, he was very talented and had sharp technique.

However, as mcrobertson pointed out, he did die young. Age 33 to be exact. He didn't die in combat, or get hit by a truck, or contract some disease, or anything else beyond his control. He died young because he pushed himself to the point where he literally didn't know how to relax. You simply MUST allow rest and recovery time for your body and mind.

Also, to him martial arts was strictly about fighting. He didn't care about grace and form. He actually thought form was a complete waste of time, not realizing that form is not about being stiff, wooden, and pre-programmed. Your average MMA may think so, but it's not. He only thought technique and practice was useful insofar as it helped you fight. Turns out, his greatest enemy was himself.

 

[Flatlander]

I agree with most of your post, but wanted to point out a couple of things here, and have numbered them for the sake of convenience. A counter position, if you will:

1)Also, to him martial arts was strictly about fighting.
2)He didn't care about grace and form.
3)He actually thought form was a complete waste of time, not realizing that form is not about being stiff, wooden, and pre-programmed.
4)He only thought technique and practice was useful insofar as it helped you fight.

1)

- Maturity does not mean to become a captive of conceptualization. It is the realization of what lies in our innermost selves.
- To realize freedom, the mind has to learn to look at life, which is a vast movement without the bondage of time, for freedom lies beyond the field of consciousness. Watch, but don't stop and interpret, "I am free" - then you're living in a memory of something that has gone. To understand and live now, everything of yesterday must die.

It seems to me that for Lee, there were much deeper levels of involvement in his Jeet Kune Do than simply "for fighting".

2) Bruce did care about form. In order to execute a one inch punch successfully, one must indeed care about form. In fact, without form, he'd have never been able to do the things he did. How do you define form?

Grace? My only knowledge of Lee's ability to move is from his films. Looked graceful to me.

3) It was, and perhaps still is for some. Once again, it depends how you define form. Kata?

4)

Training is one of the most neglected phases of athletics. Too much time is given to the development of skill and too little to the development of the individual for participation. Training deals not with an object, but with the human spirit and human emotions. It takes intellect and judgement to handle such delicate qualities as these.

It seems to me that if he saw practice on such a level, there would presumably have been other less tangible benefits derived than simply, "for fighting".

* Bruce Lee, Tao of Jeet Kune Do

 

[Touch Of Death]

Exactly, he believed in form and grace but didn't accept the current martial arts standards for form and grace; so, he rejected the terms.
Sean

 

[D.Cobb]

I've read a very interesting book recently which bought up something I hadn't thought of. Robert W Smiths Martial Musings talks a little about Bruce Lee and the point he makes that is most interesting to me is that Bruce Lee started with Yip Man at around 13 years of age and left for America around 18 years of age. That doesn't give him a great deal of time training in the martial arts. Now I'm not saying he couldn't fight because I know he had a lot of street fights but I know guys who can fight and have never done martial arts. What accreditation did he have and why is he held in such high esteem. Is it because of the movies or is it because of something else? I've trained in the martial arts under an instructor for longer than he did. What makes a master? I'm just asking the question for interests sake. I've recently left my school because my 'master' was not such a master after all.
Anyway have a super day guys.

Cheers
Sammy

Bruce Lee Blah Blah Blah ad nauseum!!

Mate, he was a thug. He was egotistical. He was not a Martial Arts Master!!
He was apparently a good fighter, we'll have to take his word for that, as there is no tangible proof.
If Chucks description of him makes him a master,

that If Bruce wasnt training in Martial Arts he was thinking about Martial Arts from the time he got up in the morning till the time he went to bed.

, then I and probably half the guys who post on this BB are masters too.
I find it hard to appreciate a guy, who did possess some incredible fighting skills(like someone we used to know), that when teaching a newbie Chi Sao, became so insensed when the newbie actually got one in on him, that he beat the poor sod so bad he couldn't even walk out of the kwoon unassisted.
Definately not the action of a Master
He was not the first to think like he did, he was not the first to talk like he did. It was just that he could yell louder, and push harder against the "norm" than anyone else had tried before him.
If he was the first, then Uechi would never have developed the system of martial arts based on Pangai-noon, that we now know as Uechi Ryu. Miyagi would never have developed Goju Ryu.
They would have just learnt and taught the systems as they had been taught to them.
He wanted to be a movie star, and that's exactly what he was. He was incredibly fast, and incredibly focused. He could develop power in such a way, that most of us can only dream of. When all is said and done, as a MARTIAL ARTIST he was a great actor. As a MARTIAL ARTS MASTER he was severly lacking.

--Dave

 

[hammer]

Whether Bruce Lee was a MASTER I dont know, but you have to give credit to where credit is due, How many millions of people where inatiated world wide to martial arts because of him? How many students of today and tomorow are going to commence the study of martial arts because of him? How many of our own instructors started martial arts due to his influence?

So whether or not Bruce Lee was a master, there are more experienced people on Martial talk that could advise first hand. But he was defiantly an AMBASSADOR for the martial arts community and a significate influence of many, for I am greatful , There is a whole generation of martial artists that owe there start in Arts because of him. MASTER OR NOT!

Cheers

 

[DarrenJew]

As the founder of JKD, I think that qualifies him to be a master. Probably more so than if he followed the teachings of someone else, when one creates his own MA system, his title should even be that of Grand Master. I dosn't really matter if he finished WC or not. From what I know Bruce Lee has never claimed being a master of WC.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Not really.

There are lots of yahoos in these various "Soke" organizations that claim to be "Grandmasters" and Founders of their own style. I would hardly qualify them as Masters. In their own mind maybe.

 

[masherdong]

I would like to think he is a master. I also believe that he probably was in quite a few street fights because of all the racial tensions back then. Just my dos centavos.

 

[ginshun]

So whether or not Bruce Lee was a master, there are more experienced people on Martial talk that could advise first hand. But he was defiantly an AMBASSADOR for the martial arts community and a significate influence of many, for I am greatful , There is a whole generation of martial artists that owe there start in Arts because of him

Ya, and there is a whole generation of engineers out there who were inspired by Scotty on Star Trek. That doesn't mean that James Doohan knows the first thing about engineering.

Not to take away from Bruce Lee, or what he did for martail arts in general, but there is more to who a person is, that those he influenced. Was he a true master? Who knows, he was pretty amazing though.

 

[Danjo]

I've read a very interesting book recently which bought up something I hadn't thought of. Robert W Smiths Martial Musings talks a little about Bruce Lee and the point he makes that is most interesting to me is that Bruce Lee started with Yip Man at around 13 years of age and left for America around 18 years of age. That doesn't give him a great deal of time training in the martial arts. Now I'm not saying he couldn't fight because I know he had a lot of street fights but I know guys who can fight and have never done martial arts. What accreditation did he have and why is he held in such high esteem. Is it because of the movies or is it because of something else? I've trained in the martial arts under an instructor for longer than he did. What makes a master? I'm just asking the question for interests sake. I've recently left my school because my 'master' was not such a master after all.
Anyway have a super day guys.

Cheers
Sammy

Smith comes from a very snobbish point of view. His book is good, but I don't agree with some of his conclusions including those on Bruce Lee. Read "Zen and the Martial Arts" by Joe Hyams. Ask yourself why so many great martial artists that knew him were so inspired by him and have never forgotten what he taught them. His impact was massive. So much so that it can scarcely be calculated. Lee was a master in my book.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

As the founder of JKD, I think that qualifies him to be a master. Probably more so than if he followed the teachings of someone else, when one creates his own MA system, his title should even be that of Grand Master. I dosn't really matter if he finished WC or not. From what I know Bruce Lee has never claimed being a master of WC.

A reason I would consider Sigung Bruce to be a "master" - but being worried about labels like that seems to be not really related to the general mentality of JKD, quite honestly. He wasn't trying to create one solidified system that would remain that way, forever and ever, but to create...sound principles? guidelines in motion and strategy?

So I think the question has sparked some interesting comments, but is kind of irrelevant.