Couple of questions from a Genbukan newbie

[Bruno@MT]

Hi All, I joined a Genbukan dojo a couple of weeks ago. I am trying to figure out the basic background of how the ryu system works. I did a lot of reading already over the last several days. Both here, on Wikipedia, the genbukan home page and various other places.
Of course I also asked my sensei a lot of things already about ninpo, but I only see him once per week, and I don’t want to keep hammering him with questions of a general nature.

I think I have a basic understanding, but I have some questions left that I did not find the answer to. If these questions are covered somewhere else already, a link is all I need.

Based on what I read so far, I have the impression that being awarded menkyo kaiden is a formal statement that you know everything there is to know about a certain ryu, and you are allowed to pass it on. But can someone who holds this certificate also grant menkyo kaiden to a student of his, or is that reserved for the soke only?

If a soke dies without formally passing on his sokeship (?), can a menkyo kaiden holder claim it, or does the original ryu die?

Since the soke is the person in charge of a ryu, is he allowed to make changes to the ryu?

If menkyo kaiden indicates complete mastership, does that mean that the menkyo kaiden holder holds the highest dan grade?

From what I read so far, I understand there is only one soke per ryu, and he passes ownership to only one student. But both Tanemura Sensei and Hatsumi Sensei are listed as soke of Gikan Ryu Koppojutsu. Is this an error?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaaki_Hatsumi
http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?ryu_soke

I hope I posted this in the right forum, and that I didn't ask inappropriate questions. I was thinking it should go either here or in general martial arts, but since my last question is about a ryu held by Tanemura Sensei and / or Hatsumi Sensei, I decided to post here. I hope that was ok.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

Well, that's a bit of a list, we'll see how we go. Just so you know, though, particularly at the beginning, these questions are probably of the least important for your training. You won't have the experience to identify individual Ryuha for a while, nor the opportunity to train in one specific art until at least 3rd Dan. But here we go:

Hi All, I joined a Genbukan dojo a couple of weeks ago. I am trying to figure out the basic background of how the ryu system works. I did a lot of reading already over the last several days. Both here, on Wikipedia, the genbukan home page and various other places.
Of course I also asked my sensei a lot of things already about ninpo, but I only see him once per week, and I don’t want to keep hammering him with questions of a general nature.

I think I have a basic understanding, but I have some questions left that I did not find the answer to. If these questions are covered somewhere else already, a link is all I need.

Based on what I read so far, I have the impression that being awarded menkyo kaiden is a formal statement that you know everything there is to know about a certain ryu, and you are allowed to pass it on. But can someone who holds this certificate also grant menkyo kaiden to a student of his, or is that reserved for the soke only?

Menkyo Kaiden is a certificate of full transmission of a particular Ryu, or school. The circumstances under which it is awarded changes depending on the system, the established tradition, and the head at the time. It involves not only knowing all the techniques as listed in the Mokuroku (literally, a catalogue, or list of techniques), but an internallisation of the strategies, tactics, and principles of the school. It also often involves Kuden, and Okuden (oral teachings, and inner, or hidden teachings). There may or may not be other Okuden teachings that are reserved for the next Soke and no other.

Often the Menkyo Kaiden holder can award up to the same level. The Menkyo Kaiden, in a traditional sense, should be thought of as similar to a graduation (from college, or university). There are cases where, in the Araki Ryu, the awarding of Menkyo Kaiden happened in longer or shorter times depending on the circumstances (around 15 years in peacetime, but 5 or 7 years in wartime), and there is a famous story of a warrior seeking out Yagyu Munenori to learn Swordsmanship. Yagyu had the man pick up a bokken, and the man appeared to Yagyu to have a great deal of experience. Yagyu asked him where he had trained, and under whom, and the man replied that he had never trained. Yagyu asked if he was being made fun of, and the man replied he had realized "that a warrior is a man who never holds his life in regret". Yagyu was very impressed, and told the would-be samurai that that was the deepest teaching of his school, and none of his students had achieved it. He then awarded the man Menkyo Kaiden.

But just to counter-point that one (and give the relevance of [Hontai ] Takagi Yoshin Ryu): The 13th Soke of Takagi Ryu was named Yagi Jigero Hisayashi, and he had a number of students. When he came ot awarding Menkyo Kaiden, he had 3 top students, Ishitani, Ishibashi, and Fujita. He chose to award Menkyo Kaiden to only Ishibashi and Fujita, leaving Ishitani out. Ishitani then ambushed Yagi as he was walking in Okura valley with a drawn katana, attacking the Soke. Yagi escaped by throwing a piece of wood at Ishitani as a distraction. The next night, Ishitani arrived at the dojo, and Yagi greeted him as if nothing had happened. He then took Ishitani to the back room, and awarded him Menkyo Kaiden. As they left, Yagi said "Who would have given you your Menkyo Kaiden if I was dead?" So it's not always such a happy occasion, and pettiness gets involved from time to time.

Each of these Menkyo holders sent their teachings down different branches, giving the groupings we have today, including, from Ishitani, the branch(es) found in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, and split-off organisations. This is a very common thing, and it is assumed that you take your Menkyo Kaiden and form your own interpretation. It is only in (relatively) recent times that students would stay with a teacher after achieving Menkyo Kaiden, and that is very much a peacetime adaptation.

If a soke dies without formally passing on his sokeship (?), can a menkyo kaiden holder claim it, or does the original ryu die?

Again, that depends on the school, and the individuals in question. Schools such as Shindo (or Shinto, same characters, slight difference in pronounciation) Muso Ryu Jojutsu, and Maniwa Nen Ryu have had their Soke line die out, but the Ryuha have been kept alive by a dedicated group of Menkyo Kaiden holders. Other Ryu, as their heads died, died. These include most of the different schools of Ninjutsu, most recently (albeit a little contraversially) the Wada-ha Koga Ryu, dying with it's last head Fujita Seiko.

Since the soke is the person in charge of a ryu, is he allowed to make changes to the ryu?

As stated above, in fuedal periods, the awarding of Menkyo Kaiden was similar to a graduation, and marked the end of the students time with that particular teacher or Ryu. The student might seek out another teacher or Ryu (like doing a post-graduate course), or may simply start up their own dojo based on what they had learned. The decision to change or preserve things rested entirely with the student (now Instructor). A major deviation would result in a new Ryu, a more minor one may just be a different branch (as Tanemura Sensei has begun teaching his Tanemura-ha branches of various schools).

As for the Soke in particular making changes, well, that happens all the time! The Kashima Shinryu, in it's 17th generation, I believe, had it's Jujutsu syllabus divided into 5 sections, and numbered about 65 techniques, that was re-structured by the 18th Soke into 6 sections with about 205 techniques, and the current Head, Seki Humitake, re-structured again into 6 sections with about 116 techniques (this is from memory, the actual figures may be a little off... but you get the idea). Hatsumi Sensei also re-structured the Gyokko Ryu into new classifications of Ten, Chi, Jin instead of Jo Ryaku, Chu Ryaku, Ge Ryaku in 2000.

If menkyo kaiden indicates complete mastership, does that mean that the menkyo kaiden holder holds the highest dan grade?

Well, I'm not sure how much you know about Classical ranking systems, but it predates Dan ranks by, oh, quite a bit. The concept of Dan ranking (dan simply means "level", by the way) was developed and popularised by Jigoro Kano for his Kodokan Judo systyem, mainly because it was gaining such popularity and opening so many new branches that Kano and his senior students needed a way to immediately know the level of experience of each of the students in a room even if they had never met. Hence, coloured belts and Kyu/Dan rankings.

The old system of ranking is a bit different, and is based on a personal relationship between the teacher and the student. The first rank in most Ryu is not really a rank, but an official acceptance into the school. This rank is called Kirigami, literally "to cut paper", because it often involved the signing of an oath (in the cases of Kashima Shinryu, Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, and others, signed with some of your own blood...). This is done in a ritual with a pre-scripted pledge, often invoking various gruesome punishments being carried out by various deities for revealing the teachings. This is followed by Shomokuroku, or Small Catalogue, often the basics of the school, then you make your way through the teachings of the school: Shoden, Chuden, Okuden, Menkyo Kaiden. There is sometimes, depending on the school, other ranks such as Betsuden Mokuroku, but these are in the minority.

So, no, the Menkyo holder is not the highest Dan rank, as the two are separate methods of ranking, but if you want to consider them in the same light, you may consider titles such as Soke and Shihanke as above Dan ranks.

From what I read so far, I understand there is only one soke per ryu, and he passes ownership to only one student. But both Tanemura Sensei and Hatsumi Sensei are listed as soke of Gikan Ryu Koppojutsu. Is this an error?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaaki_Hatsumi
http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?ryu_soke

Now, that is a sticky one. There can be a number of Soke of the same Ryu, provided they are different branches. Where the Gikan Ryu is concerned has been a matter of some contention for quite a while. It is certain that both Tanemura Sensei and Hatsumi Sensei have been trained in, and have knowledge of, Gikan Ryu, but as this system has been rarely, if ever shown, it is not certain who has the more legitimate claim.

It is entirely possible that both are true and correct, but different branches. It has been intimated that Hatsumi's version has (possibly) no techniques, so he may have only been given the oral tradition rather than the kata. Tanemura, on the other hand, has shown the scrolls in a video (Samurai Jujutsu vol. 6, from Panther Productions), but it isn't a good enough shot for me to see what is actually being shown. He is, however, holding a Tai Kai for Genbukan members in 2010, I think, on Gikan Ryu. That should be very interesting for many people...

It should be noted that both Soke of Gikan Ryu list different lineages, with Hatsumi recieving the school from Takamatsu Sensei, after it reverted to him with the death of Akimoto Sensei. Tanemura Senseis' claim to the school comes from Sato Kinbei, who also claims the Ryu form Takamatsu.

I hope I posted this in the right forum, and that I didn't ask inappropriate questions. I was thinking it should go either here or in general martial arts, but since my last question is about a ryu held by Tanemura Sensei and / or Hatsumi Sensei, I decided to post here. I hope that was ok.

Perfectly okay, I hope this was a help.

 

[terryl965]

Bruno@MT I am just stopping by to say hello and also to let you know we have a meet and greet section for introduction. I really cannot add anything to it.

 

[newtothe dark]

Just wanted to say that Chris that was a great post!!!!!!!!

I originally came to the forurms for just that sort of knowledge and answers and have found myself caught up in the soap opera sometimes. Thanks for reminding me what it should be about

:bangahead:

 

[Bruno@MT]

Thanks guys. I know this is something that will be of no practical importance to me anytime soon, if ever.

But I am new to traditional JMA. My previous experience was in modern jiu-jitsu and it had nothign resembling the ryu system so I was trying to figure out how it worked, as a system.

I'll head over to the meet and greet to say hi.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Yeah, I gotta say that chris parker sure is an elightening fellow. He must read a lot....or be like a thousand years old.

 

[Cryozombie]

Excellent post Chris, a lot of info in there.