So Let Me Get This Straight-- Why Don't We Have New Arts?

Steve

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It also depends what you count as doing it. Which is our fundamental difference.
First, I really don't think that came out the way you intended.

And second, you either do something or you don't. There's no other reasonable way to look at it. You smoke or you don't smoke. You make knives or you don't. You use a saw or you don't. You pilot a plane or you don't.

This shouldn't be a controversial position, and honestly, your recent tactic of implying it's just a difference of opinion is silly.
 

JowGaWolf

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The problem is that I know hitting someone with force can do damage. So I dont like doing it. Light, technical sparring is a different thing from fighting, in my mind.
Just don't hit with more force than your sparring partner can take. If you want to hit with more force then you'll need to find sparring partners that are conditioned to take that force without injury.

As far as technical sparring. It shouldn't be too different from fighting. If your sparring is so different than how you would really fight then, why spar? When you throw a jab in sparring, is it not the same mechanics that you would use in a fight to throw a jab? OR would you abandon your training and throw a jab in a way that is contrary to what you train?

When you train? is it not so you can use what you train in a fight? Maybe I'm the only one like this? How I train in light sparring so that I can use those same techniques in a real fight. The only real difference in training and in fighting is the amount of force I use. I know this is true, because. When I spar. I spar light, and then I learn to use the same techniques by gradually increasing intensity., I continue to increase that intensity until either I or my sparring partner doesn't want to increase the level.

The video that I showed of me sparring another instructor at higher intensity never went beyond that intensity because he could not protect himself enough from my strikes, some of which I had to either pull off target or reduce the force of the strike.

The instructor wanted to spar at a higher intensity and I denied him of that. The higher the intensity then the more I have to rely on my sparring partner to defend himself and the less ability I will have to actually redirect or pull strikes.

If you feel bad about using force then it might be that your opponent is not able to take the force you are applying. Or it could be that you don't want the same amount in force in return. Which is fair and reasonable as well. We get back what we send., and I don't always like to be hit with too much force. Even small injuries an bruises take time to heal.
 

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First, I really don't think that came out the way you intended.

And second, you either do something or you don't. There's no other reasonable way to look at it. You smoke or you don't smoke. You make knives or you don't. You use a saw or you don't. You pilot a plane or you don't.

This shouldn't be a controversial position, and honestly, your recent tactic of implying it's just a difference of opinion is silly.
Yet you draw a distinction between throwing someone who doesnt want you to, versus throwing someone who doesnt want you to when theres an official overseeing the match.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Just don't hit with more force than your sparring partner can take. If you want to hit with more force then you'll need to find sparring partners that are conditioned to take that force without injury.

As far as technical sparring. It shouldn't be too different from fighting. If your sparring is so different than how you would really fight then, why spar? When you throw a jab in sparring, is it not the same mechanics that you would use in a fight to throw a jab? OR would you abandon your training and throw a jab in a way that is contrary to what you train?

When you train? is it not so you can use what you train in a fight? Maybe I'm the only one like this? How I train in light sparring so that I can use those same techniques in a real fight. The only real difference in training and in fighting is the amount of force I use. I know this is true, because. When I spar. I spar light, and then I learn to use the same techniques by gradually increasing intensity., I continue to increase that intensity until either I or my sparring partner doesn't want to increase the level.

The video that I showed of me sparring another instructor at higher intensity never went beyond that intensity because he could not protect himself enough from my strikes, some of which I had to either pull off target or reduce the force of the strike.

The instructor wanted to spar at a higher intensity and I denied him of that. The higher the intensity then the more I have to rely on my sparring partner to defend himself and the less ability I will have to actually redirect or pull strikes.

If you feel bad about using force then it might be that your opponent is not able to take the force you are applying. Or it could be that you don't want the same amount in force in return. Which is fair and reasonable as well. We get back what we send., and I don't always like to be hit with too much force. Even small injuries an bruises take time to heal.
As I said, I dont consider light, technical sparring to be fighting. Theres a difference. And I dont like hitting anyone hard, unless they richly deserve it (and even then, my good sense normally restrains me).
 

dvcochran

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Everything you said, involves sparring with a person that you know, and that person is not trying to kill you.

I agree that it's a safe alternative, but there is more to fighting, than getting over your fear of getting hit.
True enough, but getting over your fears is a Huge step.
 

isshinryuronin

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How I train in light sparring so that I can use those same techniques in a real fight. The only real difference in training and in fighting is the amount of force I use.
I agree with your quote overall, except for your use of the word "only." There are a few big differences IMO.

While theoretically, sparring may be the same as fighting, the mental awareness of full contact, no rules, no second chance and the very real possibility of serious injury is a factor to be considered. It is hard to replicate this in sport vs real fighting. It's a different mental paradigm. To be able to make this mental/spiritual shift takes many years of practice and discipline. (There are some natural fighters out there and those who had to fight for survival since childhood. I'm neither one of those two.)

Another big difference is that there are moves you may use in light sparring, that you wouldn't use in a real fight. High risk, fancy kicks for example. Also, you can score points with moves that would not work in real fights such as hitting while off balance, leaning, over-committing, falling a little short on distance...

Conversely, there are moves in a real fight that you can't use in sparring such as eye, groin, throat, joint strikes and some takedowns. Head butting, spitting, finger breaking and biting are also frowned upon in tournament sparring).

Don't get me wrong - light sparring is great practice to develop technique, speed, tactics and a great sport. But in the real thing, nice guys finish last, so shifting into another mental/spiritual gear is a must. The concept of points must be replaced with the concept of inflicting injury.
 

Hanzou

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I agree with your quote overall, except for your use of the word "only." There are a few big differences IMO.

While theoretically, sparring may be the same as fighting, the mental awareness of full contact, no rules, no second chance and the very real possibility of serious injury is a factor to be considered. It is hard to replicate this in sport vs real fighting. It's a different mental paradigm. To be able to make this mental/spiritual shift takes many years of practice and discipline. (There are some natural fighters out there and those who had to fight for survival since childhood. I'm neither one of those two.)

Another big difference is that there are moves you may use in light sparring, that you wouldn't use in a real fight. High risk, fancy kicks for example. Also, you can score points with moves that would not work in real fights such as hitting while off balance, leaning, over-committing, falling a little short on distance...

Conversely, there are moves in a real fight that you can't use in sparring such as eye, groin, throat, joint strikes and some takedowns. Head butting, spitting, finger breaking and biting are also frowned upon in tournament sparring).

Don't get me wrong - light sparring is great practice to develop technique, speed, tactics and a great sport. But in the real thing, nice guys finish last, so shifting into another mental/spiritual gear is a must. The concept of points must be replaced with the concept of inflicting injury.

Wasn't this why Judo ended up overtaking classical Japanese Jujutsu in modern Japan? Kano removed the strikes and deadly techniques from Jujutsu which allowed his Judoka to practice at full speed application (Randori), and used mats in order for students to be thrown relatively safely. He also replaced killing blows with simulated death and submission (tapping out). That full speed training made the Judoka more capable of performing their techniques under stress because they were able to perfect them within their training without high risk of injury, and it gave Judo a leg up in fighting application.

That same training methodology is what makes Bjj (and submission grappling in general) so effective.
 

Steve

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Yet you draw a distinction between throwing someone who doesnt want you to, versus throwing someone who doesnt want you to when theres an official overseeing the match.
I draw a distinction between applying skills and training. Both are important, but they aren't the same.
 

JowGaWolf

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As I said, I dont consider light, technical sparring to be fighting. Theres a difference. And I dont like hitting anyone hard, unless they richly deserve it (and even then, my good sense normally restrains me).

Maybe this will help.

If you aren't comfortable with hitting someone hard because "you don't like it" then what when you in a situation when you may actually need to hit someone that deserves it. Will you let your that feeling restrain you and put you or your love one in danger? Here's something that I have always been taught.

When sparring and hitting with decent force (not over doing it)
1. You learn how to better control and drive your power.
2. You harden and condition your sparring partner's body. Which makes them less afraid to be hit hard.
3. You create realistic tactics and fighting theories, because you don't take unnecessary chances with things you aren't good at or things that you are not able to.
4. You learn to control your emotion where fighting isn't about " what you don't like to do" "It's about what you have to do". It's not about "hurting someone else" it's about "protecting yourself".
5. You learn to control your emotion, your frustration, and your fear of being hit. You learn to hold it together when fear or uneasiness is just an uncontrolled thought away.
6. You learn to focus on the tasks that need to be done, instead of focusing on what you may or may not do to a "future enemy.

I had a student who was afraid to hit me hard. I would scolded her for not doing so. She wanted to be able to fight using kung fu. But not being able to hit someone hard is what prevented her from be able to learn how to fight.

When we do leg conditioning. People get hurt.
When I block a beginner with my forearm, even when it's a soft block. That person gets hurt.
When we do forearm conditioning. People get hurt.

There's a different between being hurt as part of training and hurting people out of pain or out of being a jerk. It's just part of the reality of what the training is.

Not trying to change your mind. Just putting another perspective out there. Force doesn't always mean 100% and hitting someone as hard as you can.
 

JowGaWolf

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Not trying to argue or disagree. I just want to share some additional info, so that you can have a better understanding of why I think the way I do. I understand that how I train may not be a reality for someone else. We all don't train the same way. But I can only answer from my perspective on this one.


I agree with your quote overall, except for your use of the word "only." There are a few big differences IMO.
The word "only" applies to me and my perception of fighting and the experience of the fights that I've been in. It's wasn't meant mean "only" for everyone. there are too many variables, so that applies to me.

While theoretically, sparring may be the same as fighting, the mental awareness of full contact, no rules, no second chance and the very real possibility of serious injury is a factor to be considered.
I only make 2 rules for sparring:
1. Give what you get.
2. Spar for set time. (this way everyone gets a chance to train). I do "round robin" so after 1 minute the person getting the focused training gets a fresh partner.

Anything beyond that is up to the person sparring. As long as they can defend themselves adequately then they can hit each other as hard as they want.

In a physical fight:
1. Match or exceed the attack that you are getting. (Give what you get).
2. Fight for a set set time. Physical fights are not endless. Some are short some are drawn out. The time that you set will be based on the situation you are in. If people are around then you may want to draw out the fight in hopes someone will come and help. If you are by yourself then you may want to end it quickly. Each situation is different.

I always recommend to other's to spar to learn. That way you can learn how to apply the techniques. "Learn by doing" vs sparring so hard that a student would never take the risk to get a technique wrong while trying to learn it.

very real possibility of serious injury is a factor to be considered.
The membership forms that we had informed students that training may result in serious injury or death and that there is a risk. I've broken my finger 2 or 3 times during sparring, Hyper extended my elbow that took 6 months to heal. I had a black eye, busted lips, almost knocked myself out. One student was cut with a knife when doing lion dance, There have been back injuries and damage to muscular tissue. I let students know that they will get hurt and that we have rules to help prevent serious injuries from occurring. Kids often get more protection than adults because adults tend to push harder, especially those who want to learn how to fight.

Another big difference is that there are moves you may use in light sparring, that you wouldn't use in a real fight. High risk, fancy kicks for example. Also, you can score points with moves that would not work in real fights such as hitting while off balance, leaning, over-committing, falling a little short on distance.
In my training I don't use moves like what you stated. The only "high risk moves" are the ones that I don't know how to use, but currently learning at the time. I'll take those risks in sparring because I'm learning. Once I learn it, then I can use it in a real fight. This much I know for sure because of how I train. Been there done it. Jow Ga Kung Fu is very practical, which is why I was surprised that someone backed up their car just to tell me they thought it was the coolest thing they had ever seen.

In all my years of martial arts training, even when I did karate competitions as a kid. It was never about points. We did continuous sparring back then and there was a person who did best and one who did not. This was based on the quality of strikes that landed successfully. Taps and tag strikes were meaningless. The point sparring that I see today is foreign to me.

I don't use a point scoring system. The only thing I care about when I train and train others is:
1. Where you able to pull off the technique and land a solid hit.
2. Do you have the capability to land that same technique faster and harder.

If the answer to 1&2 are Yes, then you will be able to apply it in a real fight. So the next step is to increase the intensity of sparring, which requires the techniques to be done in situation where the attacks are faster and harder.

Conversely, there are moves in a real fight that you can't use in sparring such as eye, groin, throat, joint strikes and some takedowns.
For these I practice on targets that aren't human. Sort of like shooting a gun. People train on shooting targets, not people. Then they go shoot people. Correction. When they train against live targets then they use non-lethal methods to shoot at each other.

Don't get me wrong - light sparring is great practice to develop technique, speed, tactics and a great sport. But in the real thing, nice guys finish last, so shifting into another mental/spiritual gear is a must. The concept of points must be replaced with the concept of inflicting injury.
For me I don't think shifting into another mental /spiritual gear is big deal. 1. I don't make fighting spiritual, emotional, mental, or emotional. When I train and spar, I do so without emotion, music, or though of how my training partner may feel. I try to make the art of training and hitting things as emotionless a possible.

Where you may get into a competition and think that you will win. I get into one and only think about hitting my opponent and avoid damage. I only see opening and opportunities to strike. I don't think win or lose, I make it very simple. If I strike my targets well enough then my opponent or my enemy will either not want more, or they will be put in a situation where they can no longer take more. Winning is not for me to decide. By putting myself in that mental state I can focus on the task at hand.

I've actually have used my martal arts in a real fight and it's the same thing I did when I sparred but instead of landing a hard kick, in a fight I try to land my hardest kick in a fight. As a kid, I had a fight with my best friend. He knew tkd, he was older than me by 4 years. Guess how he fought? He used his tkd because that's what he trained. I didn't even know he knew karate until he feint a left kick and then kicked me in the head with a right one.

When my brother was in his 20's he got into a fight at a club. Guess what he used, in the fight? Wrestling. Guess what he trained in highschool. Wrestling.. So in my mind.
When boxers get into street fights they use boxing.
When BJJ practitioners get into street fights they use BJJ
When Wrestlers get into street fights they use Wrestling.
When Kung fu Guys into street fights they "bail out" and do nothing that they actually train. For me that that's a big issue. How I train is the way I should fight. If my training isn't good enough for fighting then I shouldn't train that with the expectation that it's good for fighting.
If I get into a street fight the you'll see some of the same things that I've already shown on video. There won't be any bailing out of my techniques.

My comments are based on how I train. My biggest focus is to be a good representation of Jow Ga Kung Fu in that it's something that can actually be used. So my training is going to be different than someone who doesn't train to use kung fu for actual fighting.

Can someone pull out a gun or knife in a fight? Of course. But I can do the same if I have one on me. I'll use what I train. If I don't have a weapon then I will still use what I train.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Wasn't this why Judo ended up overtaking classical Japanese Jujutsu in modern Japan? Kano removed the strikes and deadly techniques from Jujutsu which allowed his Judoka to practice at full speed application (Randori), and used mats in order for students to be thrown relatively safely. He also replaced killing blows with simulated death and submission (tapping out). That full speed training made the Judoka more capable of performing their techniques under stress because they were able to perfect them within their training without high risk of injury, and it gave Judo a leg up in fighting application.

That same training methodology is what makes Bjj (and submission grappling in general) so effective.
It's so funny that sometime an art can be changed from

combat -> sport -> combat

One person may try to take some dangerous moves out and make a combat art into sport. Another person may try to add those missing parts back into sport and make a sport into combat art.

The day when we will see BJJ guys start to train knife fight, the day that the history will repeat again.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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As I said, I dont consider light, technical sparring to be fighting. Theres a difference. And I dont like hitting anyone hard, unless they richly deserve it (and even then, my good sense normally restrains me).
One of my guys want to learn Sanda, I start to teach him how to run his opponent down. When you try to run your opponent down, you just cannot use light contact. With proper head gear and chest protection, full contact can still be achieve safely.

sanda-protection.jpg
 

Kung Fu Wang

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When Kung fu Guys into street fights they "bail out" and do nothing that they actually train. For me that that's a big issue.
Since I start to teach Sanda, I have tried to find the most useful Kung Fu technique that can be used in the ring. I find out that it's not jab, cross, hook, or uppercut. It's double downward inside circular punches. Even if you may not hit on your opponent's head, at least you will hit on your opponent's arm/arms. Anything can happen after that.
 

JowGaWolf

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It's so funny that sometime an art can be changed from

combat -> sport -> combat

One person may try to take some dangerous moves out and make a combat art into sport. Another person may try to add those missing parts back into sport and make a sport into combat art.

The day when we will see BJJ guys start to train knife fight, the day that the history will repeat again.
ha ha ha. that doesn't sound like a good plan. But I do like the idea of competitive knife fighting. I don't think a single leg take down is going to be the best choice lol.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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ha ha ha. that doesn't sound like a good plan. But I do like the idea of competitive knife fighting. I don't think a single leg take down is going to be the best choice lol.
You can have this in your finger when you play the ground game. The weapon was designed to be used on the ground, or in the water,

sc-hook.jpg
 

JowGaWolf

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You can have this in your finger when you play the ground game. The weapon was designed to be used on the ground, or in the water,

sc-hook.jpg
I can't help to look at that and think how that may get caught on something and cause the finger to be twisted. How popular were these?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I can't help to look at that and think how that may get caught on something and cause the finger to be twisted. How popular were these?
Your middle finger can go through the loop while your hand is holding it. it's like to hold a dumbbell when you punch. It's ancient Chinese weapon.
 

isshinryuronin

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Not trying to argue or disagree. I just want to share some additional info, so that you can have a better understanding of why I think the way I do. I understand that how I train may not be a reality for someone else. We all don't train the same way. But I can only answer from my perspective on this one.
I don't see any argument here and respect your training. But, we're talking about different things. I was comparing fighting to the topic at hand - light point sparring. You are talking about hard sparring and good old time hard training.

I can appreciate that you do not spar for points and hit in practice harder than most schools. Yes, hitting the opponent and avoiding damage is the bottom line. When I mentioned a shift in mental/spiritual attitude from light sparring to actual fighting, it's similar to your point #5 a few posts earlier. But yes, once the fight starts, there is no distraction or emotion - too many other things happening really fast. So I don't think we are far apart at all on the basic concepts.

My school does not teach for tournament competition as a goal or focus. It is useful though to come up against others who train differently and test your skills IMO. Many students enjoy it. But when this is the main focus, much of the combat skill aspects of the art are lost. We primarily teach techniques that are practical in actual combat, inflict maximum damage and pain to the attacker while using checks and angles to minimize damage to ourselves. Our fighting style is close-in (not designed or effective for tournament sparring) and is similar to the old pre-1930 Okinawan fighting style. Body hardening is part of our curriculum.

But we are drifting off the topic I was originally addressing. However, your post was very enlightening in regards to your type of training (not for everybody, I agree) and I think our views are mostly compatible. Most of us that have been around awhile have been injured. I've seen dislocated elbows and broken jaws. As for myself, I've had black eyes, an almost dislocated jaw, broken fingers, lots of bruises, cracked ribs and busted lip, doubled over and whacked hard to the nuts - over all, I've been lucky. Hard to believe that my generous nose has been bloodied, but never broken. Going on 70, none of that sounds like fun anymore (actually it was never fun, but it was part of what I did) but still can spar with the young studs for a few minutes at a time - maybe just not at your school ;).
 

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Wasn't this why Judo ended up overtaking classical Japanese Jujutsu in modern Japan? Kano removed the strikes and deadly techniques from Jujutsu which allowed his Judoka to practice at full speed application (Randori), and used mats in order for students to be thrown relatively safely. He also replaced killing blows with simulated death and submission (tapping out). That full speed training made the Judoka more capable of performing their techniques under stress because they were able to perfect them within their training without high risk of injury, and it gave Judo a leg up in fighting application.

That same training methodology is what makes Bjj (and submission grappling in general) so effective.
This progression, as much as anything, is why I'm a big proponent of including committed randori/sparring/rolling as a training tool. Anyone who actually wants to be able to execute in a fight should have some exposure to this, even in the more classical/traditional approaches.
 

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I draw a distinction between applying skills and training. Both are important, but they aren't the same.
You've told me on multiple occasions that competition is application, but sparring outside competition is training. Or I've entirely misunderstood what seemed very clear posts.
 
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