So Let Me Get This Straight-- Why Don't We Have New Arts?

Steve

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Firstly, let's not confuse "getting into fights" with being able to fight. I have no interest in fighting, but much interest in being able to fight.

But you are correct that not everyone is as interested in developing fighting skill - and certainly not to the same level - so many of us are teaching folks with differing focus.
This makes my brain hurt. I have no interest in making knives, but much interest in being able to make knives. I have no interest in cooking, but much in being able to cook.

I mean, if we are reasonably inferring that interest equals doing the thing, this is just a ridiculous expectation. The corollary here is spectatorship. I have no interest in playing rugby, but am very interested in knowing how to play rugby. If I stepped out onto a field, how do you think that would go?
 
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JowGaWolf

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Speaking for myself, theres nothing at all wrong with that, provided youre clear to students that you arent teaching them to fight. And if you have little fighting experience, that you arent qualified to teach them to fight. that level of transparency is rare, in my experience.
Which is strange to me, because not everyone wants to know how to fight. Some people only care about a belt color and the bragging rights to say they have one. That's no big secret right? So people should just come out and say that.

This makes my brain hurt. I have no interest in making knives, but much interest in being able to make knives. I have no interest in cooking, but much in being able to cook.
I think he said it wrong. I understand what he's trying to say. More like he has no interest in getting into fight (I assume street fights) but is interested in knowing how to fight.

For me. Interested in knowing how to fight and fighting are the same thing. I can't do achieve one without the other. Which is why retired fighters train new fighters.
 

jobo

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Here are some names:
Bruce Lee- JKD
Ed Parker- Ed Parker Kenpo
Bart Vale- Chinese Kenpo
Tony Leo- Shuri Shindo Ryu
Freedie Lee- Freedie's Modern Fu
Al Tracy - Tracy Kenpo
Jeff Speakman -Kenpo 5,0
Helio Gracie- BJJ
Steve Mohamad- Black Karate Federation
Gary Dill- Bushido Kempo/SDS
Chuck Sullivan- Karate Connection-Kenpo
Sifu Anderson- Anderson Martial Arts
Hwang Kee- Tang Soo Doo
Al Moore- Shou Shu Kung Fu


Do you guys know what all these people have in common? Well, they all took one, two, or three arts, kept what they like and added what they thought it needed.

They they rebranded it as a new art. In some cases, this was evolutionary, in others revolutionary. Why are some revered, and others not?

Further, why don't we have more blending and progressing of older arts? How come new martial systems/styles pretty much stopped in the mid 1990s. I would say from 1960s-1990s there was a marital art explosion in the US that led the creation of the aforementioned styles, some trace their lineage to older mixed/blended arts before the 1960s like Tang Soo Doo

Now we have mma.. pretty much kick boxing with BJJ. The question is their room for regrowth of traditional martial arts? Can these arts continue to expand? Will ever see new arts created? Or we stuck with striking and grappling= MMA

Ohh and since we are talking about it... can we someone go ahead and create Cobra Kai Karate :) lol

Let's discuss
its a good question, i think somewhere a long the line, the marketing ploy of original, traceable linage, rather than effectiveness came to the fore,

we gets lots of folk on here saying is this genuine kungfu, etal how do a verify that its linage can be traced back a thousand years and very few saying how can i tell if this will knock the 300 lb bully over, like they believe that one equals the other or that they dont care and are just on a nolstaliga trip
 

drop bear

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Whats wrong with that? Not everyone cares about getting into fights. If I only taught people who cared about fighting Id have 3 students at most

Exactly. Stage craft for example isn't about learning to fight. But more about learning to master the appearance of fighting.

 
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Gerry Seymour

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This makes my brain hurt. I have no interest in making knives, but much interest in being able to make knives. I have no interest in cooking, but much in being able to cook.

I mean, if we are reasonably inferring that interest equals doing the thing, this is just a ridiculous expectation. The corollary here is spectatorship. I have no interest in playing rugby, but am very interested in knowing how to play rugby. If I stepped out onto a field, how do you think that would go?
No, I dont think thats an apt analogy. Someone who doesnt have an interest in fixing cars may still want to have basic repair skills for emergencies.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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This makes my brain hurt. I have no interest in making knives, but much interest in being able to make knives. I have no interest in cooking, but much in being able to cook.

I mean, if we are reasonably inferring that interest equals doing the thing, this is just a ridiculous expectation. The corollary here is spectatorship. I have no interest in playing rugby, but am very interested in knowing how to play rugby. If I stepped out onto a field, how do you think that would go?
You have to think about it as an emergency thing. So I've got no interest in performing CPR on someone, but I very much want to know how to administer CPR. I would still rather have a medic administer it, but I want to be able to do so if the need arises. Same with other basic first aid. And same with knowing how to fight.

I'm perfectly happy not having to make a stretcher out of two poles and a tarp, or how to make a splint, or do CPR. But I'm sure as hell glad that I know how to do them.
 

drop bear

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You have to think about it as an emergency thing. So I've got no interest in performing CPR on someone, but I very much want to know how to administer CPR. I would still rather have a medic administer it, but I want to be able to do so if the need arises. Same with other basic first aid. And same with knowing how to fight.

I'm perfectly happy not having to make a stretcher out of two poles and a tarp, or how to make a splint, or do CPR. But I'm sure as hell glad that I know how to do them.

How did you know how to do those things?
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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How did you know how to do those things?
Combination of learning through boy scouts (my troop was very first aid oriented due to having a couple military people, EMT's/former EMT's and two doctors in the adults), and through courses that I had to take through the hospital when I was working there.
 

Steve

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Which is strange to me, because not everyone wants to know how to fight. Some people only care about a belt color and the bragging rights to say they have one. That's no big secret right? So people should just come out and say that.

I think he said it wrong. I understand what he's trying to say. More like he has no interest in getting into fight (I assume street fights) but is interested in knowing how to fight.

For me. Interested in knowing how to fight and fighting are the same thing. I can't do achieve one without the other. Which is why retired fighters train new fighters.
Exactly. Totally agree. I understand what he meant, but as you say, interested in knowing how to fight and fighting are the same. Or at least, you can't know how to fight without fighting. As I said before, when someone is interested in something they don't want to do, that's called being a spectator. A person can know a lot about things without being able to do them.
 

Steve

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Combination of learning through boy scouts (my troop was very first aid oriented due to having a couple military people, EMT's/former EMT's and two doctors in the adults), and through courses that I had to take through the hospital when I was working there.
This has come up before. Simple tasks can be learned, like going out the correct door in an emergency. CPR can be learned... sort of. The actual statistics for CPR being performed outside of an ER or hospital by non-medical experts is pretty dismal. Better than zero (I think) but not by much.

So, two salient points that relate directly to the topic of martial arts:

1: A person who trains and is certified in CPR might, in an emergency, has an outside chance of doing some good.
2: That person is entirely unqualified to teach someone else to do it. I mean, completely unqualified.

On the ladder below, for CPR, you are somewhere between Knowledge/Remembering and Comprehension/Understanding when it comes to CPR. Unless you have more experience than you outline above.

capture-jpg.23175
 

Steve

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Exactly. Stage craft for example isn't about learning to fight. But more about learning to master the appearance of fighting.

And on this note, fight choreographers are always inventing new styles. Gun-fu, for example, is a movie-centric martial arts style. I recall the guy who choreographed the first few Bourne movies came up with a style for the Treadstone guys.
 

JowGaWolf

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And on this note, fight choreographers are always inventing new styles. Gun-fu, for example, is a movie-centric martial arts style. I recall the guy who choreographed the first few Bourne movies came up with a style for the Treadstone guys.
Yep always. Gymkata. "if you got the flips, then they got the kicks" lol.
I actually liked this movie, when it came out. I'm pretty sure the younger generation would get a laugh at it. The best thing about that time, is that it was easy to make improvement's on the fight scenes. Now it's more difficult without going "John Wick"
 

Gerry Seymour

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You have to think about it as an emergency thing. So I've got no interest in performing CPR on someone, but I very much want to know how to administer CPR. I would still rather have a medic administer it, but I want to be able to do so if the need arises. Same with other basic first aid. And same with knowing how to fight.

I'm perfectly happy not having to make a stretcher out of two poles and a tarp, or how to make a splint, or do CPR. But I'm sure as hell glad that I know how to do them.
After I posted earlier, I thought about changing a tire. I'm pretty good at it, though I've no interest in doing it. But my grandfather taught me how, and gave me plenty of opportunities to practice it.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Exactly. Totally agree. I understand what he meant, but as you say, interested in knowing how to fight and fighting are the same. Or at least, you can't know how to fight without fighting. As I said before, when someone is interested in something they don't want to do, that's called being a spectator. A person can know a lot about things without being able to do them.
No, interest in fighting is not the same as an interest in knowing how to fight. I don't really get any joy out of hitting folks with any power. I do it from time to time to get practice at it, but I don't really have any interest in doing it. I do it because I have an interest in being able to.
 

JowGaWolf

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No, interest in fighting is not the same as an interest in knowing how to fight. I don't really get any joy out of hitting folks with any power. I do it from time to time to get practice at it, but I don't really have any interest in doing it. I do it because I have an interest in being able to.
ha ha ha.. I'm going to change your mindset on that. Just as soon as the Covid-19 mess is over. A lot of the students who participated in my sparring classes would have said the same thing as well, but after a few classes with me they learned how to fight without being angry or stressed.

My theory is that fighting should be as close to emotionless as possible. In other words, I don't want emotions to drive my fighting. My other theory about fighting is that in training it should always be done from the perspective of learning and not beating up your sparring partner. These two things make fighting very enjoyable for me and those who train with me. You could hit me with power because I think I can defend myself well enough to take your power shots. Don't get me wrong, I don't want your street fight power hits. I'm talking about your sparring power hits.

The joy that you should be getting is not from hitting people but from executing a technique correctly. If you are focused on hitting people then you are focused on the wrong thing. Out of all of the years of sparring, it was never about me hitting people. It was always about me getting the technique right. I think you would enjoy it more if you made it less about hitting people and more about getting the technique right.

Not saying that this would work for you, but it has worked for me and everyone that I've trained. I've seen the same thing from people with better fighting skills than I have as well. Sometimes they will only use one technique in sparring, because all they care about is getting the technique correct. It more about that, than the hitting.
 

Steve

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After I posted earlier, I thought about changing a tire. I'm pretty good at it, though I've no interest in doing it. But my grandfather taught me how, and gave me plenty of opportunities to practice it.
Yeah. Interest is subjective. How many fights do you think one needs before one is good at it? How about to teach it?

If I wanted to learn how to change a tire from someone, experience bis required. And I'd prefer to learn from a AAA guy than a person who knew a guy who did it once or twice.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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This has come up before. Simple tasks can be learned, like going out the correct door in an emergency. CPR can be learned... sort of. The actual statistics for CPR being performed outside of an ER or hospital by non-medical experts is pretty dismal. Better than zero (I think) but not by much.

So, two salient points that relate directly to the topic of martial arts:

1: A person who trains and is certified in CPR might, in an emergency, has an outside chance of doing some good.
2: That person is entirely unqualified to teach someone else to do it. I mean, completely unqualified.

On the ladder below, for CPR, you are somewhere between Knowledge/Remembering and Comprehension/Understanding when it comes to CPR. Unless you have more experience than you outline above.

capture-jpg.23175
I think you and dropbear were getting to the same point here, so let me make sure this is clear.

I never claimed to be able to teach it first aid, or CPR. I never claimed to be good at it. I even stated that I'd rather someone else do it, who is more qualified/capable. My response was specifically to your question about how you would train to do something you don't want to do, and that was my example. It was just me stating that I do not wish to ever have to use first aid and/or CPR on a person, but I still trained and learned how to do so (however effectively) so that if I am ever in a situation where no one more qualified to do so is around, I will be able to offer my skills.
 

drop bear

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I think you and dropbear were getting to the same point here, so let me make sure this is clear.

I never claimed to be able to teach it first aid, or CPR. I never claimed to be good at it. I even stated that I'd rather someone else do it, who is more qualified/capable. My response was specifically to your question about how you would train to do something you don't want to do, and that was my example. It was just me stating that I do not wish to ever have to use first aid and/or CPR on a person, but I still trained and learned how to do so (however effectively) so that if I am ever in a situation where no one more qualified to do so is around, I will be able to offer my skills.

My point was you learned it by doing it.
 

Steve

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I think you and dropbear were getting to the same point here, so let me make sure this is clear.

I never claimed to be able to teach it first aid, or CPR. I never claimed to be good at it. I even stated that I'd rather someone else do it, who is more qualified/capable. My response was specifically to your question about how you would train to do something you don't want to do, and that was my example. It was just me stating that I do not wish to ever have to use first aid and/or CPR on a person, but I still trained and learned how to do so (however effectively) so that if I am ever in a situation where no one more qualified to do so is around, I will be able to offer my skills.
I'm sorry I used Seymour's language. As I've said a few times, it muddles the discussion with some pretty subjective language.

Last time I looked, the 30 day survival rate for someone having a cardiac arrest outside of a medical facility was something like 10%. This is from memory so I may be mistaken. But as I recall, someone without cpr had something like a 1 in 20 chance while someone who received cpr was like 1 in 10. That's from anyone, including trained pros, IIRC.

So, to the point, have you ever had occasion to apply the skills?

And because this is a martial arts forum, whether you intended to mention teaching or not, it is an intrinsic part of a lot of MA programs. So, I think it's an important point to reinforce.
 
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