SKK form applications

[RevIV]

Our versions of the kata series and pinan series are different in more than one sequence.

Our kata 1 starts likes this:

-left kick (to left half moon), right punch
-right kick (to rt hm), left punch
-turn CCW to 4:30, drawing to left cat facing 4:30 w/ cup&saucer right
-step out to left half moon facing 4:30 executing overhead xblock, then left downward block (right to elbow position), the left outward block with right thrust punch
-pivot CW to face 12...

So you turn with no gaurd and your hands in a cup in saucer to start? I liked your bunkai that you had earlier with the trap but now you are taking away some vitals of a SKK kata (turn w/ gaurd up) It seems that your teacher has merged the two (kata 1 and Circle of the tiger) I have found that most cup and saucers are signicant of some sort of trap not just a starting position.
Jesse

 

[RevIV]

Sorry swift tigers is lt outward block then downward block.

Sorry JTKenpo - You said swift tigers and i went right to circle of the tiger which is Prof. Cerio's version of 1 kata, if you were truly thinking of swift tigers are you refering to the part were you do a LT outward block, LT downward Block and then a right Thrust punch? If so sorry i got confused.
Jesse

 

[RevIV]

just bringing this one back because we seem to be doing an overlap in the current thread.
Jesse

 

[fnorfurfoot]

So you turn with no gaurd and your hands in a cup in saucer to start? I liked your bunkai that you had earlier with the trap but now you are taking away some vitals of a SKK kata (turn w/ gaurd up) It seems that your teacher has merged the two (kata 1 and Circle of the tiger) I have found that most cup and saucers are signicant of some sort of trap not just a starting position.
Jesse

I agree. That is how we treat the cup and saucer positions at the end of 1 Kata. When you draw your right leg together with the left and bring your hands to cup and saucer on your left hip, that is a trap against a left handed punch from the right side of your body. Then we throw a right back fist to the face with a right side kick to the knee. Then it is repeated on the other side against a right punch.

 

[MJS]

just bringing this one back because we seem to be doing an overlap in the current thread.
Jesse

Hey Jesse! For the sake of discussion, I could merge both threads seeing that they're on the same topic.

Mike

 

[RevIV]

sounds like a good idea to me Mike. merge away

 

[RevIV]

I agree. That is how we treat the cup and saucer positions at the end of 1 Kata. When you draw your right leg together with the left and bring your hands to cup and saucer on your left hip, that is a trap against a left handed punch from the right side of your body. Then we throw a right back fist to the face with a right side kick to the knee. Then it is repeated on the other side against a right punch.

Absolutely, Same as when you do Palm over Palm as in 4 kata, statue of the crane and han/hon/suki/tsuki however we are spelling it now. Traps and wrist techniques were taoght to me. Take these out or add them in at the wrong time, changes the entire original technique. Now don't get me wrong, do what you want, make the forms work for you and your students, but remember the past and what it was meant for originally, that way you won't have as much overlapping as we do now.
In Peace,
Jesse

 

[MJS]

Just a quick note. There were 2 threads in this section, both discussing the same topic. I merged both together.

Mike

 

[JTKenpo]

Thanks for the earlier thread, that is great!!

Jesse, yeah when I heard the downward block outward block I thought of swift tigers but then realized it is actually outward then downward. I agree with the guards up throught out the katas as well. I was always told that the katas were fighting sets so guards up throughout when not striking or trapping.

JT

 

[DavidCC]

Originally Posted by DavidCC
Our versions of the kata series and pinan series are different in more than one sequence.

Our kata 1 starts likes this:

-left kick (to left half moon), right punch
-right kick (to rt hm), left punch
-turn CCW to 4:30, drawing to left cat facing 4:30 w/ cup&saucer right
-step out to left half moon facing 4:30 executing overhead xblock, then left downward block (right to elbow position), the left outward block with right thrust punch
-pivot CW to face 12...

So you turn with no gaurd and your hands in a cup in saucer to start? I liked your bunkai that you had earlier with the trap but now you are taking away some vitals of a SKK kata (turn w/ gaurd up) It seems that your teacher has merged the two (kata 1 and Circle of the tiger) I have found that most cup and saucers are signicant of some sort of trap not just a starting position.
Jesse

No, not no guard I could go into the application of the turn and the movement of the left and right hands there but that's not the part we were talking about so I just left that out to focus on the "3 blocks and punch" sequence.

At the most basic level the movement of the hands during the turn is also found in the 16 point blocking system, if that helps any

also picture this - you begin this turn with left arm extended after the left punch to 12, but instead of that extended arm being the end of a punch what if that wrist is being held by an attacker at 12 (cross hand or same side or even both hands)? there are some very intersting applications of that same movement that have nothing to do with any attacker at 6 or 430.... the transitions between "sequences" often hold the most interesting applications... especially if you aren't too literal (ura waza)

分解する Bunkai suru (verb) to break down; to disect; to take apart.
応用する Oyo suru (verb) to apply; to put to practical use.

分解　Bunkai
Analysis; dissection or to take apart.

応用　Oyo
Application

Okuden waza: Hidden/secret techniques

Omote: Obvious - Omote waza, the obvious techniques that keep the
shape of the kata.

Ura: Hidden - Ura waza, hidden techniques.
Techniques that are not so obvious. Form and embusen can change from
the kata.

 

[RevIV]

At the most basic level the movement of the hands during the turn is also found in the 16 point blocking system, if that helps any

Nope, sorry that does not help. I do not know the 16 point blocking system. At which generation was that added? When i go to Matt Barnes webpage there are a few blocking systems on there that i do not do, I believe most of them were added by the USSD guys. I have incorporated the Dragon Blocking system that Prof. Ingargiolla has added to his system.
Jesse
ps- i am still looking for someone who has the sunflower blocking system that i learned through Master Bagley.

 

[DavidCC]

At the most basic level the movement of the hands during the turn is also found in the 16 point blocking system, if that helps any

Nope, sorry that does not help. I do not know the 16 point blocking system. At which generation was that added? When i go to Matt Barnes webpage there are a few blocking systems on there that i do not do, I believe most of them were added by the USSD guys. I have incorporated the Dragon Blocking system that Prof. Ingargiolla has added to his system.
Jesse
ps- i am still looking for someone who has the sunflower blocking system that i learned through Master Bagley.

yeah... I was wondering about that after I posted it. The specific thing I was referring to is an left inward parry that feeds the attacking hand into a trap (cup&saucer) on the right.

I'm looking for an expert on the 10 point BS...


"BS" lol

is that a "freudian slip" hahaha?

 

[DavidCC]

It seems that your teacher has merged the two (kata 1 and Circle of the tiger)

I couldn't say for sure where the differences come from. Got a vid of Circle of the Tiger I could watch?

I have found that most cup and saucers are signicant of some sort of trap not just a starting position.
Jesse

absolutely. For me, in this example, it is the end of a "sequence" in between the "sequences" described originally in this thread. Any series of moves (not even necessarily in the specific order as practiced in the kata) might contain an application, and they often overlap because one movement might be 2 different things in 2 different applications. In fact I don't think we ever consider C&S a starting position for any application.

 

[14 Kempo]

Not done particularly well, but here are a couple YouTube vids on the versiion that I know ... done by persons unknown to me.

http://www.youtube.com/v/yiBKxXVme5s&hl=en

http://www.youtube.com/v/2fqXoxqHx7E&hl=en

 

[RevIV]

yeah... I was wondering about that after I posted it. The specific thing I was referring to is an left inward parry that feeds the attacking hand into a trap (cup&saucer) on the right.

I'm looking for an expert on the 10 point BS...


"BS" lol

is that a "freudian slip" hahaha?

Expert i am not with the 10 point but i do a lot of drills and techniques from the 10 point BS. THe first 4 blocks i do off of each hand turning them into a lot of wrist and arm locks (my blocks are the X's up and down, not the double blocks to the sides. I do use those sometimes though)
Jesse

 

[JTKenpo]

The last couple of posts have been in regard to the subtltys of the transitions between the sequences. I agree this is where the higher level of understanding a form comes into play and you can (as we do) spend a lifetime finding answers to these subtletys.

10 point applications - from the cup and saucer into circling the hands out to the sides and executing the double tigers claws. From a double wrist grab, circling the hands crosses the attackers arms at the elbows the tigers claws become regrabs and the push becomes a throw.

 

[DavidCC]

Not done particularly well, but here are a couple YouTube vids on the versiion that I know ... done by persons unknown to me.

http://www.youtube.com/v/yiBKxXVme5s&hl=en

http://www.youtube.com/v/2fqXoxqHx7E&hl=en

thanks, those look nothing like any forms we do :/

I'll see if I can put together a quick video in the basement tonight after my nephew's b-day party.

 

[JTKenpo]

Anybody wish to share ideas on 3 kata?

 

[DavidCC]

Its' the last one I have learned so far. I would love to see some video of it to see if we are doing it differently (we usually are).

 

[JTKenpo]

Here is an old write up I haven't even proof read in awhile to be honest.

Three Kata​

From front position, right foot out on elbows with open hands. Right foot steps back to 6 o’clock and draw left foot into cat stance while circling hands counter clockwise until right hand is in upward open block and left hand is equal to face with arm at 45 deg.

From left cat stance half moon in right with right open hand scoop block, then left open hand scoop block, continue with right hand spear poke low and then left spear poke high. Follow up with left front kick.

From left half moon stance turn 180 deg and draw into right cat stance while executing right scoop block. Step out with right foot into half moon stance and execute a right back punch. Sweep right foot counter clockwise 360 deg while lowering your height zone by bending knees coming to rest facing 6 o’clock in a squatting position. Push off floor and jump into right double front kick landing in left half moon stance. Immediately deliver right back kick landing in left half moon stance.

From left half moon stance execute right low block inward palm up while chambering left hand to right shoulder then deliver left low block outward palm down. Right foot steps up on line and pivot 90 deg to 3 o’clock. Repeat low blocks. From left half moon stance turn into twist stance facing 12 o’clock. Right foot steps back to half moon stance and execute right then left tigers claw returning right elbow straight back, then draw to left cat stance and anchor elbows with tiger claws still formed. From left half moon stance turn into twist stance facing 9 o’clock. Right foot steps back to half moon stance and execute right then left immortal man finger strikes while returning right elbow straight back, then draw into left cat while anchoring elbows with immortal mans still formed.

From left cat stance step left foot out into half moon stance and grab outward with left hand. While balancing on left leg execute right front kick, back kick, side kick landing in horse stance facing 9 o’clock. Immediately cross left foot in front of right and circle hands in front counter clockwise coming to rest in twist stance facing 6 o’clock with right open hand in upward block and left open hand face level with arm at 45 deg. Execute left side kick and return kick to previous position, step back right into side horse and return hand position as in twist stance.

From left side horse stance execute combination #26. After executing right knife hand slide right foot back toward 3 o’clock and pivot body clockwise coming to rest in right half moon stance facing 12 o’clock. Immediately execute right low block followed by left front punch.
End form by half mooning backward with right foot into horse stance, crossing open hands above head, right foot meets left into front position. Bow.