Skipping dan rank...

[stone_dragone]

I have heard of many situations where someone skips one or two kyu ranks, sometimes even grading directly into a system based on previous experience and demonstrated knowledge of that system's material.

I have heard of fewer less, but still some, situations where a person has been promoted within dan ranks with a jump (i.e. 1st dan to third or third to fifth, etc).

Has anyone here heard of such tings?

Has anyone here experienced such things?

Does it raise anyone's blood pressure just reading about it?

 

[IWishToLearn]

Seen it - happened to me too. I wear whosever rank my teacher gives me - they gave it to me, so I'll wear it around them. For my own classes I teach I wear my plain black belt, no adornements, unless it's a special occasion or someone requests the stripes.

 

[Sensei Payne]

happened to my instructor as well...he was promoted from a brown 1 to Nidan...so it is possible...but he also had 30 plus years into the art too and trained everyday on everything he knew up to Brown 1

 

[karate-dragon]

Drives me crazy. This is what is wrong with karate, that there is no governing board to make ranks comparable. Why is it that some of us put in the time and effort and test and others get promoted mostly so that they can meet the requirements to teach for someone else or make money for someone else or compete in a division that has less people in it. A certain reputable high ranking master is handing out 3rd dans so that people can open schools under his name and he can make more money. Iknow that this does not lessen what I have accomplised honestly, but it is still aggravating to see.

 

[Kacey]

Has anyone here heard of such tings?

Yes

Has anyone here experienced such things?

Personally? Not myself, or anyone I know personally.

Does it raise anyone's blood pressure just reading about it?

It depends on the circumstances. There are times when such multiple promotions are appropriate - although those times are far rarer than the number of times such promotions happen. It is up to the integrity of the instructor to determine if such promotion is appropriate, and to the integrity of the student to determine if such promotion should be accepted. Only those directly involved in such promotions can determine the appropriateness of multiple promotions, and it is not for me to second-guess those whom I do not know personally.

Seen it - happened to me too. I wear whosever rank my teacher gives me - they gave it to me, so I'll wear it around them. For my own classes I teach I wear my plain black belt, no adornements, unless it's a special occasion or someone requests the stripes.

happened to my instructor as well...he was promoted from a brown 1 to Nidan...so it is possible...but he also had 30 plus years into the art too and trained everyday on everything he knew up to Brown 1

The two examples provided by IWishToLearn and Sensei Payne seem to me, from the outside, to be examples of times when multiple promotions were appropriate, from the perspective of both the instructors who offered such promotions and the students who accepted them.

 

[terryl965]

Stone Dragon I have seen it and do not understand it, why would anybody want something they have not earned. remember we can only do what we can do, we have no control of people morals in life or on the matt, so be like you are and just train and relax.

 

[arnisador]

There are always special circumstances. This shouldn't be the norm but can't be ruled out.

 

[searcher]

I have never seen it and so it has never happened to me. I have, however, spent less time in one rank due to previous experience. But I still had to know the material neede3d for the rank I was promoting to.

I, myself, may recognize a rank from another school if they deserve to be recognized, but that does not mean they have that rank from me or in my style/school and I will never let someone skip a level. At the very least, they aregoing to have to push themselves to show they deserve the rank they are testing for. I can be soemewhat of a sadist and I will make them pay the piper. It is only fair to the other students that are working hard.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I have heard of many situations where someone skips one or two kyu ranks, sometimes even grading directly into a system based on previous experience and demonstrated knowledge of that system's material.

I have heard of fewer less, but still some, situations where a person has been promoted within dan ranks with a jump (i.e. 1st dan to third or third to fifth, etc).

Has anyone here heard of such tings?

Has anyone here experienced such things?

Does it raise anyone's blood pressure just reading about it?

First two, heard of them, dont like them. And dont try either in Cuong Nhu. You'll probably be laughed out of the school.

Second one, never heard of it, insulted at the concept.

It does in fact raise my blood pressure when reading it.

 

[TheOriginalName]

Drives me crazy. This is what is wrong with karate, that there is no governing board to make ranks comparable. Why is it that some of us put in the time and effort and test and others get promoted mostly so that they can meet the requirements to teach for someone else or make money for someone else or compete in a division that has less people in it. A certain reputable high ranking master is handing out 3rd dans so that people can open schools under his name and he can make more money. Iknow that this does not lessen what I have accomplised honestly, but it is still aggravating to see.

I have to join in on this one ... Why is there no govening body for Karate?
Why is there no predefined understanding of what constitutes each level?
I'm only relatively new to MAs so o accept the this could simple me a lack of understanding on my behalf ---> but then again questioning is the only way to gain knoweledge.

I know at my school there is a very well defined coriculum for white all the way through to 8th Dan.
This achieves two thing.
Firstly it allows the students to be able to focus their attentions during grading periods to those thing that they will cetainly be tested on.
Secondly it avoids the situation of a student being able to grade without the correct knowledge.

Would it be possible to have a National\International definition of what must be achieved for each level for the major forms?

I think the last line of Karate_Dragon's post though is full of wisdom: they may "cheat" the system but it does not erode our personal achievements.

And as always i'll sign off saying that these are just the ramblings of a guy who may or may not know what in the world he is talking about.

 

[exile]

I have to join in on this one ... Why is there no govening body for Karate?
Why is there no predefined understanding of what constitutes each level?

...Would it be possible to have a National\International definition of what must be achieved for each level for the major forms?

For a start on why it is that a lot of karateka want absolutely nothing to do with some top-down, heavily hierarchical and inevitably bureaucratic outfit dictating to schools, read the following, TON:

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2006/02/05/the-totalitarian-politics-of-karate/

I think Redmond is right on the money; and I think the sorry history of the WTF in Taekwondo is a good example of what happens to MAs that do get themselves structured along what he calls the same `totalitarian' lines. I'd be very interested in learning your reaction to his thinking, which many, many practitioners of karate are fully in sympathy with. In my view, abuses of the promotion system, however regrettable, are far preferable to a Karate Control Central that scrupulously inspects every single dan promotion ever, monitors curricula, and in general does what the kind of organization you were speculating about would do. Surely here, the `cure' would be way worse than the disease.

And just as aside to Karate_dragon: even the excessively heavy-handed `directorate' for much of world TKD, the WTF/KKW organizations, is not able to enforce comparable standards across dojangs. There are McDojangs that will give you a BB, pretty much guaranteed, in two years or so if you pony up, and there are schools where five years or more to first dan is pretty much the rule, and everything in between. In order to ramp up the level of, um, oversight to the point you envisage, you'd pretty much have to make your organization something describable as `the rank police', with a level of scrutiny over, and meddling in the affairs of, individual karate schools that would be unconscionable—and why on earth would any school join such an organization? Good schools already have all the credibility they need, and the others are hardly going to want to belong to such an outfit in any case. Exactly how would such an outfit ever wind up with any member schools? The whole idea is what people used to call a non-starter (maybe they still do), and I'm very glad it is...

 

[jks9199]

Why would you want some massive super accreditation system defining "THE RULES" for ranks?

How would you do it? Consider the differences between Shotokan, Kyukushinkai, Isshin-ryu, and other styles of karate. How would you compare between them and set standards? Even if you limited it only to dan rankings, it'd be impossible. There are just too many differences.

 

[qi-tah]

I have heard of many situations where someone skips one or two kyu ranks, sometimes even grading directly into a system based on previous experience and demonstrated knowledge of that system's material.

I have heard of fewer less, but still some, situations where a person has been promoted within dan ranks with a jump (i.e. 1st dan to third or third to fifth, etc).

Has anyone here heard of such tings?

Has anyone here experienced such things?

Does it raise anyone's blood pressure just reading about it?

My teacher asked me to skip a grading last year... i politely declined as i truly felt that i wasn't ready for that. I take it as a compliment that he feels that my progress warrents grading at a higher level, but to actually accept his recommendation? I couldn't and won't, for two reasons:

1) for me it's not how high i grade, it's how well i perform in my grading. I'd rather stomp all over 1st Dan than scratch through 2nd Dan.

2) I would feel that by skipping a grading, i'm missing out on a valuable period of intense practice and revision... just 'cause i can perform the basics with my eyes shut doesn't mean that they are perfect and i have nothing more to learn from them. Last year i found out things about the postures of the 24 palms that blew me away and improved my form immensely... i probably would have missed those adjustments if i hadn't had the "pre-grading" period to work on those palms. Really, to me that's the real value of grading... the things you learn in the time leading up to it, rather than the acheivement. I mean, what happens the day after you grade? Just another day to begin again.

With that in mind... i reckon it would be valuable to have a "re-grade" system, where you could go back and redo gradings you scraped through, or feel that there is more you could learn from that part of the syllabus. Maybe each time you grade at the same level the bar could be raised, so that a 3 time 1st Dan might be grading at the same level as a second Dan etc? Might take some of the heirarchical rubbish out of the whole grading debate. What do others think about this?

 

[jks9199]

With that in mind... i reckon it would be valuable to have a "re-grade" system, where you could go back and redo gradings you scraped through, or feel that there is more you could learn from that part of the syllabus. Maybe each time you grade at the same level the bar could be raised, so that a 3 time 1st Dan might be grading at the same level as a second Dan etc? Might take some of the heirarchical rubbish out of the whole grading debate. What do others think about this?

Why do you need a grading to focus on a study basics? I regularly practice and review basic techniques, principles and forms. I expect to do things now, after 20 years, differently than when I first started. Similarly, when I teach, I have different expectations based on a student's skill level.

What I seem to be reading here is that your emphasis is on the gradings and the prep, rather than the training. Maybe you ought to train all the time as if you had a grading tomorrow, instead.

 

[qi-tah]

Why do you need a grading to focus on a study basics? I regularly practice and review basic techniques, principles and forms. I expect to do things now, after 20 years, differently than when I first started. Similarly, when I teach, I have different expectations based on a student's skill level.

What I seem to be reading here is that your emphasis is on the gradings and the prep, rather than the training. Maybe you ought to train all the time as if you had a grading tomorrow, instead.

But you work up to a grading, it's not about how hard you train, it's a focus thing, yeah? And if you are in a class that is concentrating on certain forms/apps, then that's what you tend to gravitate toward, simply because you need to keep up with the class. If you have, say, 2 grading periods in the year when pretty much everyone is doing revision of one sort or another, then you have the opportunity to explore past material in more depth. The grading is just a structure that is there to help you, it's not the be all and end all.

And before you say it, yes, i revise all my forms and apps continually as well, but there are quite a lot of them now, so i find it helps me to have an extrenal impetus to get me to really hone in on one particular thing and flog myself over it. It's amazing how often a breakthrough on a particular form/app will come just before a grading. Doesn't mean that that's the only time they happen though.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have seen it.
I have seen 3rd promoted to 5th.
The circumstances where unique and I may not have agreed completly I did understand why.
I do not think things like this should be done often but sometimes they need to be done

 

[jks9199]

But you work up to a grading, it's not about how hard you train, it's a focus thing, yeah? And if you are in a class that is concentrating on certain forms/apps, then that's what you tend to gravitate toward, simply because you need to keep up with the class. If you have, say, 2 grading periods in the year when pretty much everyone is doing revision of one sort or another, then you have the opportunity to explore past material in more depth. The grading is just a structure that is there to help you, it's not the be all and end all.

And before you say it, yes, i revise all my forms and apps continually as well, but there are quite a lot of them now, so i find it helps me to have an extrenal impetus to get me to really hone in on one particular thing and flog myself over it. It's amazing how often a breakthrough on a particular form/app will come just before a grading. Doesn't mean that that's the only time they happen though.

I apologize; that came through much more abruptly than I intended. With the exception of black belt testing, we rarely schedule tests in my school. Students don't receive special focus and training to prepare; instead, they are expected to be able to test when (and if) we decide it's time.

What I meant by suggesting that you train constantly as if you are about to be graded is just that; focus on whatever form or exercise or drill you're working with the same energy and attention you would give it were you about to be graded on it, rather than waiting for your instructor to say that "grading is in 3 weeks; let's study this..."

Part of advancing in your own training is separating from that external motivation; learning to recognize the things you need to work on, then doing them. I've literally "rebuilt" basic forms, starting with stance exercises, moving to punching practice, and so on, in order to refine and self-correct myself, bringing fresh attention to each part.

As to breakthroughs just before grading... A black belt seldom knows much more the day after they are tested and promoted than the day before. (Occasionally the testing process produces a major awakening... but the truth is, it's rare.) Instead, the breakthrough happened some time before, and the testing is often just a way to recognize and demonstrate that they've reached that you've reached that level.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Has anyone here heard of such tings?

Has anyone here experienced such things?

Yes I have heard of such things and have experienced it happening in front of me on a few occasions. One inparticular that sticks out in my mind is one individual I know of went from 3rd Dan to 8th Dan and then 1 year later graded for his 4th dan with his instructor. 2 - 3 years later jumped 9th Dan and became a 10th Dan.

Though these things happen I truly feel it is wrong to jump any dan rank, kyu rank is ok accept the advanced kyu levels. But dan grade is a whole other story. Now if someone progresses quickly to say 4th or 5th dan not so bad as long as they can hold to that standard. But jumping grade is not good. I know of other cases of instructors of say japanese based systems promoting people in tae kwon do and jumping them dan rank. Again wrong in my opinion.

But lets throw a wrench in this what about students promoting their instructor?

Does this all make my blood boil? Nope I just consider the sources most times, on a few occasions I have been very surprised. I just do my thing and not worry about it otherwise I will drive myself nuts and end up in a padded room with how much it happens.

 

[Grenadier]

If someone has shown that he can perform the techniques with the appropriate level of proficiency / mastery, and if he fulfills all of the other requirements (see below), then I don't see a huge problem here.

However, when it comes to dan ranks, there's a lot of material to be learned between each dan rank (up to a certain level), and for someone to skip dan levels would be exceptionally rare, since they're supposed to be learning the material that they need to know for the next rank, and not two ranks ahead.

There's supposed to be a lot of material to learn between each dan rank, and for someone to cram all of that in there in such a short period of time, isn't going to be too effective, unless that person is some sort of phenomenal talent. To me, it's just not too realistic to believe that there are many people who should be skipping such ranks, since it takes time, practice, and dedication between each rank.

Finally, and probably even more important, is my belief, that once you start advancing in dan ranks, it becomes less of what you are able to take from the system, and more of what you are able to give back to the system. This is why it's not simply a matter of someone learning techniques, kata, improving sparring, etc.


The only other way I can see someone skipping dan ranks, is if, say, the head of the style dies, and that the senior-most student must take over. In those cases, if he's capable, then I don't have any qualms about, say, a hachidan (8th dan) jumping to judan (10th dan), as long as the rest of the senior council agrees.

 

[tsd]

I have heard of many situations where someone skips one or two kyu ranks, ..."....
some,... where a person has been promoted within dan ranks with a jump (i.e. 1st dan to third or third to fifth, etc).

Has anyone here heard of such tings?

I have not seen skipping in dan ranks, and only with gups when there is previous experience and demonstration of requirements for that rank. If a Dan wishes to come to association from another with Dan Rank, they have to relinquish their Dan Certificate from previous style. Other wise they must start as gup. I am not aware of cases where a black belt would give up a certificate, though it is an option.