Another Rank Discussion: Asking For It

[dancingalone]

I am sure most of us say rank is unimportant and it would be unseemly to ask for it. That said, could any of you see a situation where it might be acceptable?

Suppose we have student X who is opening his own school. He is a mere nidan or 2nd degree and the majority of the school owners in his area have higher rank in their systems, sometimes greatly so. Would it be inappropriate for the student to humbly approach his teacher and ask for a promotion to 3rd dan? How about a double jump to 4th dan which would break the group's custom regarding time in grade? For the purposes of discussion, let's assume he has received all of the material within the system already, so there is no 'missing' knowledge.

Perhaps we can also look at from the perspective of the teacher. If the student has been a model, loyal pupil, shouldn't the teacher owe it to him to bypass some of the 'rules'?

Just a topic for discussion... it's not necessarily a personal dilemma of mine. And those of you who don't use rank in your system, well good for you!

 

[Grenadier]

I am sure most of us say rank is unimportant and it would be unseemly to ask for it. That said, could any of you see a situation where it might be acceptable?

If a yudansha, especially an instructor, has a good working relationship with his sensei or shihan, then it's not out of line to ask for a general timeline, for the next promotion. In addition to this, the sensei / shihan shouldn't be afraid to tell him what needs to be done in order to get to that ranking.

Suppose we have student X who is opening his own school. He is a mere nidan or 2nd degree and the majority of the school owners in his area have higher rank in their systems, sometimes greatly so. Would it be inappropriate for the student to humbly approach his teacher and ask for a promotion to 3rd dan?

To ask for a promotion? No.

To ask for the opportunity to test for sandan?

It wouldn't be in appropriate, IFF the student were at the nidan for a fair amount of time, has demonstrated that he knows the material, can perform the material at sandan level or higher, and has demonstrated that he has contributed something back to the system.

By the time someone is nidan, he should have a good understanding of what he needs to do, and how far he has come. He certainly shouldn't be asking before that.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am sure most of us say rank is unimportant and it would be unseemly to ask for it. That said, could any of you see a situation where it might be acceptable?

Suppose we have student X who is opening his own school. He is a mere nidan or 2nd degree and the majority of the school owners in his area have higher rank in their systems, sometimes greatly so. Would it be inappropriate for the student to humbly approach his teacher and ask for a promotion to 3rd dan? How about a double jump to 4th dan which would break the group's custom regarding time in grade? For the purposes of discussion, let's assume he has received all of the material within the system already, so there is no 'missing' knowledge.

Perhaps we can also look at from the perspective of the teacher. If the student has been a model, loyal pupil, shouldn't the teacher owe it to him to bypass some of the 'rules'?

Just a topic for discussion... it's not necessarily a personal dilemma of mine. And those of you who don't use rank in your system, well good for you!

Asking for rank kind of defeats the purpose of rank, don't you think?

If the person in question has the time in grade, then asking when he or she may test for sandan, or even asking to test for sandan is reasonable. To ask for a promotion or a double promotion is asking for trouble. With the double promotion, you have the added issue that anyone who knows what their looking at will be able to tell that they're not at a fourth dan skill and experience wise. If they don't even have the time in for third, asking to go to fourth is even more problemetic.

I think that he or she would be better off putting their GM's picture up and making it clear that he or she is the student of said GM and that said GM comes in for all testings or all dan testings (assuming that they actually do).

Daniel

 

[jks9199]

I don't have a problem with black belt seeking promotion, if there's an established process for this to be done. It's no different, in my mind, than a college student applying for graduation. If you're asking for things to be done out of the normal process or timeline -- you need to be able to justify and explain it. But if you can support it... why not?

Now, hopping from teacher to teacher or seminar to seminar, looking for that next granting of rank or license? That's a little different.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well I could ask for a rank...but then my sifu would just stare at me funny and likely laugh since we don't have any ranks

 

[Benoitt]

If you're a good teacher, your students doesn't care that much. Taking one step at a time is important for getting your next belt.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I am sure most of us say rank is unimportant and it would be unseemly to ask for it. That said, could any of you see a situation where it might be acceptable?

No.

I am not completely convinced that rank is unimportant, but that's another conversation.

Suppose we have student X who is opening his own school. He is a mere nidan or 2nd degree and the majority of the school owners in his area have higher rank in their systems, sometimes greatly so. Would it be inappropriate for the student to humbly approach his teacher and ask for a promotion to 3rd dan?

Yes it would be inappropriate.

How about a double jump to 4th dan which would break the group's custom regarding time in grade? For the purposes of discussion, let's assume he has received all of the material within the system already, so there is no 'missing' knowledge.

No. (And I'm of the opinion that jumping dan ranks a la the Kukiwon's skip dan tests is ridiculous.)

Even if a 1st dan has supposedlly learned "all the material" it's not as if he can't improve on his understanding and execution of it. So, for the sake of this discussion is a 1st dan has the same amount techniques that a 7th dan does I can only assume the 7th dan is simply phenomenal at understanding and performing it since they've had about 30 more years to practice it than the 1st dan has. This alone would make it ridiculous for the 1st or 2nd dan to request rank.

Perhaps we can also look at from the perspective of the teacher. If the student has been a model, loyal pupil, shouldn't the teacher owe it to him to bypass some of the 'rules'?

No.

The instructor owes the student instruction, not "bypass[ing]" of the rules. In the ITF the "time requirements" for dan ranks are minimums. I dare say the majority of students should be taking more time than these minimums before testing (and it's not their place to ask to test in the first place).

If, as you contend, rank is unimportant and in this scenario there's nothing left for the 1st dan to learn then he should simply work to educate the public as to the unimportance of rank. Or he should declare himself a 10th dan since there's no difference between that and a 1st dan.

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

Asking for rank kind of defeats the purpose of rank, don't you think?

Not necessarily. I don't believe martial arts ranks are perfect representations of one's current martial level of skill or experience. I liken it to work situations. I've asked for and have received promotions professionally before when I felt I wanted and was ready for a position of greater responsibility. Same idea in my opinion.

If the person in question has the time in grade, then asking when he or she may test for sandan, or even asking to test for sandan is reasonable. To ask for a promotion or a double promotion is asking for trouble. With the double promotion, you have the added issue that anyone who knows what their looking at will be able to tell that they're not at a fourth dan skill and experience wise. If they don't even have the time in for third, asking to go to fourth is even more problemetic.

On the flip side, not every group that uses dan ranks maintains an official rank test for ranks beyond sandan or so. I took a yondan last year from my own teacher and I did not test for it. He simply proclaimed me one by acclamation and now I have a pretty piece of parchment for my wall.

Skill-wise... well, again I don't believe a dan rank is a perfect reflection of one's skill especially when we begin to factor in aging and time away from training. Personally I don't find the idea of skipping ranks too outrageous, although I do think if your group has a culture of waiting so long in grade before the next promotion, the rule should be followed unless there are exceptional reasons to not do so. That's more or less what I had hoped this thread would discuss.

I think that he or she would be better off putting their GM's picture up and making it clear that he or she is the student of said GM and that said GM comes in for all testings or all dan testings (assuming that they actually do).
Daniel

Maybe so! Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[dancingalone]

If you're a good teacher, your students doesn't care that much. Taking one step at a time is important for getting your next belt.

That's inherently true. But back to the original question, what say you? Never a good case for asking?

 

[Big Don]

My sifu is very clear about asking for rank, and/or asking when you will test.
You DO NOT do either.
If you ask for rank, you'll wait longer than you would have.
If you ask when you're testing, he will either make you wait longer, or, and this is the one that scared me: test you right then and there and grade you accordingly.

 

[dancingalone]

No.
If, as you contend, rank is unimportant and in this scenario there's nothing left for the 1st dan to learn then he should simply work to educate the public as to the unimportance of rank. Or he should declare himself a 10th dan since there's no difference between that and a 1st dan.

Well, you've peeled away some of the double talk about martial arts ranks. Clearly they have some meaning to them since we've gone through of trouble of setting up a 10 level dan system. So if rank is a valuable commodity, why shouldn't we ask our teachers to advance us as quickly as possible so long as the transmission of knowledge and skill remains with integrity?

If someone hypothetically has no problems asking his instructor for specific lessons like 'Can you teach me Kurufunfa kata?' why would it be bad behavior to also ask for the chance at sandan, perhaps even a little early?

 

[dancingalone]

My sifu is very clear about asking for rank, and/or asking when you will test.
You DO NOT do either.
If you ask for rank, you'll wait longer than you would have.
If you ask when you're testing, he will either make you wait longer, or, and this is the one that scared me: test you right then and there and grade you accordingly.

Yep. I know plenty of people who do the same. Generally, they are trying to teach their students humility, etc. Yet I would ask are there never good reasons to ask for a promotion or opportunity to promote?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yep. I know plenty of people who do the same. Generally, they are trying to teach their students humility, etc. Yet I would ask are there never good reasons to ask for a promotion or opportunity to promote?

I think that to ask for the opportunity is reasonable. To ask for the promotion is, in my opinion, out of place.

As to whether or not there are good reasons, what constitutes a good reason is different to different people. From a business standpoint, the scenario you presented (average grade of school owners in the area) would seemingly be a good reason.

From the standpoint of maintaining the organization's strictures regarding rank or insuring that those who hold a rank are really ready to do so, it may seem like a less than good reason.

While rank is not always reflective of one's actual skill, it generally is reflective of time. Time spent training is time spent training, and like cubic inches, there is no substitute. That is what I meant by being able to tell that a skipped yondan holder is not of the appropriate skill level. Not that their skill isn't good, so to speak, and not that they cannot handle themselves with other yondans in, say a tournament setting. But there is something subjectively different about the way one practices when they've had three to five or more years of practice than the guy next to them.

Now, if you've been a second dan for seven years and know all of the curriculum that a fourth dan should know, then the time in training is no longer an issue.

I would not go so far as to say that it should never be done; I am saying that great care needs to be taken in skipping grades or testing early for the next grade. If business is the only reason, I feel that there are better options to address those concerns.

Daniel

 

[chrispillertkd]

Well, you've peeled away some of the double talk about martial arts ranks. Clearly they have some meaning to them since we've gone through of trouble of setting up a 10 level dan system. So if rank is a valuable commodity, why shouldn't we ask our teachers to advance us as quickly as possible so long as the transmission of knowledge and skill remains with integrity?

A couple of reasons:

1) Part of rank is taking the necessary time to acquire this knowledge, the skills necessary to correctly put said knowledge into physical application, the ability to transmit this knowledge to others, and the philosophical underpinnings of the art (the principles of the physical techniques, strategy and tactics inherent to the style, and a certain philosophical development of the individual, viz. their internalization of whatever way goes to making your marticular martial art and art).

2) It's not the student's place to ask the teacher to be advanced. It's the teacher's role to train the student and, when he judges enough progress has been made, put the student through a series of tests to see if they are ready for a new rank (this can be done at a formal testing, through time as a series of tests in class that the student might not even be aware of, a combination of these two approaches or something else). The student should be concerned about diligently practicing what his instructor has given him, not about asking for more material that the instructor hasn't seen fit to give him yet.

3) Regardless of how systematic a particular teaching method inherent to a particular style is MA training will often appear piecemeal since a person will often not be ready to absorb particular lessons until a certain amount of time is spent physically training and getting the movements ingrained in their physical memory so that their body can perform not just the movements but the concepts underlying the movements.

4) Just because something is valuable doesn't mean it should be, or even can be, imparted "as quickly as possible" if by that you mean quickly. Often times, valuable things take a long time to acquire.

But then, I would argue that if rank really isn't important then there is no reason not to award it quickly, or even frivilously. (Which raises the question of: if people don't think rank is important why all the uproar about "belt mills"? But, again, that's another conversation.) Using your example I am still unsure of what would prevent the instructor from awarding his 1st dan student a high dan rank, higher than all of his competitors, or even from preventing the 1st dan to simply award himself that rank. If rank isn't important why not make yourself a 10th dan?

If someone hypothetically has no problems asking his instructor for specific lessons like 'Can you teach me Kurufunfa kata?' why would it be bad behavior to also ask for the chance at sandan, perhaps even a little early?

Asking the instructor to teach them something or answering the instructor's query about what they want to learn? There is a vast difference between those two things. I honestly cannot imagine me approaching either of my instructors and asking them to teach me specific things. It's not my business to set the "lesson plan," it's up to them to to determine what they want to teach me, taking into consideration my previous training, my strengths, my weaknesses, and what they think I would benefit from learning next. I will at times ask them to watch me as I work on a particular pattern, kick, etc. but these are things they've already taught me and I am just asking for further critiquing.

Personally, your example of asking to learn a specific kata (for instance) - without further qualification - strikes me as being, well, rude.

If my instructors asked me what I wanted to work on during a private lesson, for example, I would offer input about what I would like to practice, but the question itself could be a means of testing me. Perhaps they want to see if I was aware of what I needed to work on as they were. The question itself can be seen as a way for the instructor to gauge the strudent's advancement.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Supra Vijai]

No. (And I'm of the opinion that jumping dan ranks a la the Kukiwon's skip dan tests is ridiculous.)

I think this depends on the circumstance. For instance during a recent chat with my Sensei he mentioned that he spent close to 11 years on Shodan (1st Dan) because in our organization the head instructor is the only person who can promote past that and he lives a couple of states away & didn't always get a chance to visit this particular school. He simply hadn't realized how long it had been so my Sensei was graded and promoted to Sandan (3rd Dan). There was no rank skipping test available and there certainly isn't one now but purely based on the time and the obvious skill level demonstrated, a double promotion was awarded.

Surely something like that couldn't be called ridiculous?

Personally, your example of asking to learn a specific kata (for instance) - without further qualification - strikes me as being, well, rude.

In our school it's actually encouraged as it shows that you are doing your research (as long as you actually are!) and trying to progress. Of course that being said there are limitations. A white belt who has just started requesting to be taken through the high level kata with the same attitude as used with the black belts is not going to be entertained but purely because they haven't got the basic grasp they would require to understand the hidden lessons in the higher level techniques, not because the instructors see it as rude. It's different if the same white belt was to walk up to the instructors and critique how a particular technique is done, now THAT'S ridiculous.

I personally have approached my instructors numerous times asking to be shown something which I may not have been taught already and there are one of 2 possible responses: "Sure, let's go" or "At this stage it would do you no good to learn that, keep working on "x" technique/s and we'll see how you go a little while down the track".

 

[Hollywood1340]

I've seen rank held for political reasons but never seen anyone ask for it.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

we had a situation like this where I train recently. We had a first dan instructor who had 4 classes a week at different venues. Our club generally does not allow anyone under 4th dan to instruct but this particular instructor is also a school teacher and personal trainer and was available to take the classes at a time when we are struggling to get higher ranks who want to instruct (the majority of our 4th dans and above just want to train as often as they can and have no interest in instructing and we have about 30 training venues in my area alone). This instructor actually aproached the powers that be and asked if they could grade early as they felt they were ready, always attended black belt class and thought it would add some credibility to them as an instructor to potential clientel by having the extra stripe on the belt. At our club there is a 2 year wait from 1st to 2nd dan and all they wanted was a 6 month repreive. After much deliberation the club came back with a solid "no". They had to wait. Me, personally, I was very happy with their decision because once they make the exception once it opens a can of worms and there becomes a grey area. Rules are rules in my opinion.

 

[Cirdan]

Asking for a promotion is something you just don`t do, it is the same as telling the instructor you know better than him/her. In that case, why are you there in the first place? Asking for a timetable, what you need to work on etc is completely different. As for breaking the "rules" with regards to advancement this is done all the the time for gifted or dedicated people. Real effort and progress should be recognized. Needing rank for publicity reasons, not so much.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Perhaps we can also look at from the perspective of the teacher. If the student has been a model, loyal pupil, shouldn't the teacher owe it to him to bypass some of the 'rules'?

Nope. No deal. Then you're just promoting him for being nice.
My sensei was a 5th kyu when he started teaching us (under occasional supervision of his sensei, 5th dan).

If you are so insecure that you need the additional rank, then you decidely do not deserve it. Btw, what does it matter if the other dojo have higher level instructors? I thought the whole point of opening a scholl was to teach / preserve the art, not about which club would get the most students like it's a competition.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Yep. I know plenty of people who do the same. Generally, they are trying to teach their students humility, etc. Yet I would ask are there never good reasons to ask for a promotion or opportunity to promote?

If rank conveys skill and knowledgte of the system, then no.
Because otherwise what is the point of testing for it in the other cases?
And if he were to get a 'free' pass, how would he be able to teach what he was supposed to have learned before getting that grade?