Showing honor and repect

[Last Fearner]

In years past there was no question that the highest ranking student should be at least offered the honor to lead or not. I have extensive experience teaching classes and at times would like to lead the class if only to try and pass on by word, example and actions, what I have learned through the years. Am I totally off base here?

TKDmel,

I do not believe you are "totally off base" here. I understand what you are talking about, and I would not question your honor, integrity, or respect for your fellow instructor-to-be by bringing up this question. Over the years, I have trained in schools run by American Instructors who did not receive this kind of customs and courtesies of the Asian culture (not intended as an insult to American Instructors - just some experiences I have had with conflicting procedures and protocol).

Many of the Korean Grandmasters that I have trained with taught a different philosophy, but it must be fully understood to be appreciated by others, and not misconstrued as a lack of respect or an inflated ego. This might be difficult to aptly describe in a brief conversation, but I will list some of the primary points that I was taught to follow in showing respect.

1. The owner of a dojang (sabeom) is in complete charge of his or her school. If any visiting Masters or Grandmasters of higher rank walk in the door, the sabeom would show appropriate courtesy and respect by stopping all activities, bowing to the senior, and introducing the honored guest to others present. The sabeom would be polite in offering the senior rank refreshments, and a private place to relax or talk business. In the office, the senior rank would be offered to sit in the sabeom's chair behind the desk. The offer is made as a matter of courtesy, but is often declined.

2. If the senior rank wants to observe a class, they are offered a chair which is placed on the senior side of the training room. If the visiting Master dresses in Dobok, and is present on the floor, the Sabeom is never obligated to turn over the class to the visiting Master or Grandmaster, but may choose to offer at his or her own discretion (it is usually polite and respectful to make the offer, especially if it is a very senior Grandmaster, but the offer is often declined, and the sabeom is encouraged to teach while the senior rank observes, and offers occasional input - - not harsh criticism or corrections, but suggestions and helpful hints).

3. If the Sabeom is not present at the Dojang, the school is left in the charge of a responsible instructor, senior student, or office manager. Regardless of the rank or title of this person (if any) they are in complete charge and hold the full authority and rank of the Sabeom in his or her absence. If a visiting Black Belt, Master, or Grandmaster shows up, the same courtesy and respect is shown in bowing, but the person in charge should not relinquish any authority over the school, business operations, or classes which have been assigned to assistant instructors.

Most of the above circumstances describe a situation where the visiting senior rank is not a member of that Dojang, but most likely is a part of a larger organization or at least recognized by the senior instructor. In the case of a higher ranking Black Belt of your own Dojang, the policy concerning proper protocol is entirely up to the Sabeom of the Dojang. The owner of the school might choose to hire an office manager who has no authority on the floor, or they might employ a general manager who runs everything in the absence of the Sabeom.

Anytime an instructor, assistant instructor, or instructor trainee is placed in charge of a class, that class is theirs. If a higher ranking instructor shows up, it is up the Sabeom to set the policy for exchange of leadership. If the Sabeom says it is mandatory, then it should be done without question. If the Sabeom forbids it, then it should never be done. If the Sabeom says it is optional, then the instructor in charge should bow to the senior, and either choose to offer the leadership, or ask permission to continue (out of courtesy), and the senior rank would say, "Yes, please continue." Then the senior ranking Black Belt would remain in the room, not as a student, but as a participating advisor.

My policy is that if the advisor out-ranks the class instructor, the senior Black Belt advisor does not line up with the students, but stands to the side and waits until the class is started, then joins in at their discretion.

In my training from Korean Grandmasters, it is an automatic courtesy to offer the class to a senior Black Belt, but it is usually declined because the reason that the lower rank instructor is there is get experience being the one in charge. Senior Black Belts are often recommended not to show up during these classes so as not to undermine that authority. However, if the Sabeom authorizes it in advance, the higher rank would either run the class, and put the junior instructor in charge of certain activities or groups of students, or the higher rank Black Belt would observe in an advisory capacity, and only intervene if their input was requested, or if they saw a correction that need to be addressed (IE: a form that was being taught incorrectly, or some unsafe practice in sparring, board breaking, etc.).

The one issue that I differ with some others on is the chain of command when teaching. While it is true that we can all learn something from even a beginner student, and we should listen to the input of those who are junior, this should not be misconstrued that the junior should "teach" the senior or reverse the role where the junior instructs a class that a senior rank attends. I know that others might disagree with me on this, and I am not suggesting that the junior is not worthy of their position as an assistant instructor, or that they do not have something to offer, but any student, of any rank, should be taught in class only by a senior ranking instructor. The protocol of a class, and chain of command is structured for a purpose, and junior students should never be confused about this issue.

This is essentially no different than a parent giving their child some responsibility, but maintaining the respect that both parents are in charge, and elder siblings must be respected as well. The elder siblings are taught to give the younger child room to grow by not bossing them when parents have delegated responsibility, but the younger child is placed in charge of a task, and never in charge of their parents nor their older siblings. If parents are not present, and an older sibling must take charge to provide for and protect the other children, the younger siblings must never question that authority simply because the parents have given them specific responsibilities.

Now I know that we are not necessarily talking about children in a Martial Art class, but these lessons of life, respect for seniority, and courtesy are essential, and should not be disregarded. Seniors must also respect their juniors, delegate authority to them, and respect the authority that is delegated by those that are senior to both of them. However, I do not believe that a junior should teach a senior unless it is a "specialty" outside the realm of the regular class curriculum (IE: referee instruction where rank is not an issue, or First-Aid/CPR where the junior student is certified and the instructor is not).

As for regular class, the senior rank should always be more experienced, knowledgeable and current on what is being taught than a junior. If not, they should not be in the class, but should seek instruction from their Master until they are brought up to speed. Rank takes precedence over age, wealth, beauty, and popularity. If a Black Belt holds a rank higher than a junior, they should be qualified for it, and the junior should respect that. If the junior is more knowledgeable, then there is a problem that the Master needs to address. Ultimately, it is up to the Sabeom as to who runs the class, and if the junior should defer to the senior or not, then both junior and senior should respect the decision.

This is my opinion on the subject. :asian:
CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[TKDmel]

TKDmel,

I do not believe you are "totally off base" here. I understand what you are talking about, and I would not question your honor, integrity, or respect for your fellow instructor-to-be by bringing up this question. Over the years, I have trained in schools run by American Instructors who did not receive this kind of customs and courtesies of the Asian culture (not intended as an insult to American Instructors - just some experiences I have had with conflicting procedures and protocol).

Thank you for putting it so well. My master was Korean and most of his fellow masters did come often to our dojang so the unspoken rules of protocol were observed and pretty much understood as the way things are. It was not questioned. In seeing our master turn the class over to another master we saw no disrepect, in fact just the opposite. We came to see that there are other ways to teach, other ways to learn, and that every different way has value. We don't have to be stuck learning just one way.

The one issue that I differ with some others on is the chain of command when teaching. While it is true that we can all learn something from even a beginner student, and we should listen to the input of those who are junior, this should not be misconstrued that the junior should "teach" the senior or reverse the role where the junior instructs a class that a senior rank attends. I know that others might disagree with me on this, and I am not suggesting that the junior is not worthy of their position as an assistant instructor, or that they do not have something to offer, but any student, of any rank, should be taught in class only by a senior ranking instructor. The protocol of a class, and chain of command is structured for a purpose, and junior students should never be confused about this issue.

I agree.

Now I know that we are not necessarily talking about children in a Martial Art class, but these lessons of life, respect for seniority, and courtesy are essential, and should not be disregarded. Seniors must also respect their juniors, delegate authority to them, and respect the authority that is delegated by those that are senior to both of them. However, I do not believe that a junior should teach a senior unless it is a "specialty" outside the realm of the regular class curriculum (IE: referee instruction where rank is not an issue, or First-Aid/CPR where the junior student is certified and the instructor is not).

As for regular class, the senior rank should always be more experienced, knowledgeable and current on what is being taught than a junior. If not, they should not be in the class, but should seek instruction from their Master until they are brought up to speed. Rank takes precedence over age, wealth, beauty, and popularity. If a Black Belt holds a rank higher than a junior, they should be qualified for it, and the junior should respect that. If the junior is more knowledgeable, then there is a problem that the Master needs to address. Ultimately, it is up to the Sabeom as to who runs the class, and if the junior should defer to the senior or not, then both junior and senior should respect the decision.

This is my opinion on the subject. :asian:
CM D.J. Eisenhart

I feel I need to go into a bit more detail for clarification of this thread. The manager in question attained her rank and all her knowledge from a person who unfortunately runs a McDojang. Her rise through the ranks was rapid and she was taught that his way was the only way. The manager is skilled in many ways and for the most-part I have no problem at all being a student in her class. When asked by her to assist fellow students to correct hand positions, stances, etc. my instruction is ignored for hers, since "her way is the only way" attitude. One way for students to see value in others opinions and ways is for them to be seen as knowledgeable by the person in charge, and if applicable "offered" lead of the class. I would not accept in most cases, and if I were to lead, I would most likely go over the value of respect and why and how it is given and received.

Honor and repect can only be taught by those that believe in them. I watch children running around, on and off the floor without even a thought to bowing first, answering a question by saying "yup" instead of "yes sir/ma'am, and in general terms the lack of respect is a trait that "rolls downhill". I may be an idealist, but I favor the "old ways" taught by Korean/Asian masters. (I'll get off my soapbox now)

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Thank you for putting it so well. My master was Korean and most of his fellow masters did come often to our dojang so the unspoken rules of protocol were observed and pretty much understood as the way things are. It was not questioned. In seeing our master turn the class over to another master we saw no disrepect, in fact just the opposite. We came to see that there are other ways to teach, other ways to learn, and that every different way has value. We don't have to be stuck learning just one way.



I agree.



I feel I need to go into a bit more detail for clarification of this thread. The manager in question attained her rank and all her knowledge from a person who unfortunately runs a McDojang. Her rise through the ranks was rapid and she was taught that his way was the only way. The manager is skilled in many ways and for the most-part I have no problem at all being a student in her class. When asked by her to assist fellow students to correct hand positions, stances, etc. my instruction is ignored for hers, since "her way is the only way" attitude. One way for students to see value in others opinions and ways is for them to be seen as knowledgeable by the person in charge, and if applicable "offered" lead of the class. I would not accept in most cases, and if I were to lead, I would most likely go over the value of respect and why and how it is given and received.

Honor and repect can only be taught by those that believe in them. I watch children running around, on and off the floor without even a thought to bowing first, answering a question by saying "yup" instead of "yes sir/ma'am, and in general terms the lack of respect is a trait that "rolls downhill". I may be an idealist, but I favor the "old ways" taught by Korean/Asian masters. (I'll get off my soapbox now)

It may be time for you to move on and find a school that teaches closer to what you have been taught. This school does not sound like it is being run the way you are used to or the way you would like it to be run. Good luck in your martial training and I hope that you find a way to make it work out.

 

[exile]

It may be time for you to move on and find a school that teaches closer to what you have been taught. This school does not sound like it is being run the way you are used to or the way you would like it to be run. Good luck in your martial training and I hope that you find a way to make it work out.

I'm completely with Brian on this, TKDM. This doesn't sound like a matter of diverging practice within a `normal' range of appropriate choices. It sounds instead as if something else is going on, where there's a fundamental conflict between management's perspective and your own. And you're not going to be able to do anything about it---leading by example is a wonderful way to teach, maybe the best, but it's only effective when there's strong background support for what it is that you're giving examples of. At your school, it sounds as though that's not the case.

 

[TKDmel]

It may be time for you to move on and find a school that teaches closer to what you have been taught. This school does not sound like it is being run the way you are used to or the way you would like it to be run. Good luck in your martial training and I hope that you find a way to make it work out.

It may be, that ultimately I will have to find another school, or begin thinking about starting one of my own, to teach the true core values that are inherant in any martial art. For lack of any other schools(except the McDojang), I will have to "stick it out" for now, and maybe I will also express my concerns with the owner/head instructor. He and I were both taught under the same master, and he may also be seeing/feeling the same things I am.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

It may be, that ultimately I will have to find another school, or begin thinking about starting one of my own, to teach the true core values that are inherant in any martial art. For lack of any other schools(except the McDojang), I will have to "stick it out" for now, and maybe I will also express my concerns with the owner/head instructor. He and I were both taught under the same master, and he may also be seeing/feeling the same things I am.

That might be a good start and if it does not get resolved right in your eyes then maybe you will want to start up school. Good luck to you no matter what happens. :asian:

 

[terryl965]

It may be, that ultimately I will have to find another school, or begin thinking about starting one of my own, to teach the true core values that are inherant in any martial art. For lack of any other schools(except the McDojang), I will have to "stick it out" for now, and maybe I will also express my concerns with the owner/head instructor. He and I were both taught under the same master, and he may also be seeing/feeling the same things I am.

This TKDM is the best advice anyone can give go talk and if things cannot be resolved then find your path the enlightment with your own school.

 

[Elayna]

I just wanted to say I experienced the same thing in my Judo school that I was in a few years back.
The kids would do a half bow scrape thing if even when they would get on or off the mat. Very disprespectful.
I do have to say to for the most part I think the "old way" or the "The Code" is the best way to follow in MA.
And I do agree that if you feel that this school is not giving you what you need or that you can not stand by and idoly whatch people teach in a way that you are not proud of then I think you should go somewhere else, or start your own school.
I believe that would be the greastest respect for everyone, instead of causing a fuss you know.
I would always just keep in mind, that people have more to teach then just in their MA abilities. Something I have learned along the way.
I think it is really nice that you are taking so much time to make sure you are doing things right though.

Good Luck and Happy Holidays.

Elayna

 

[wade]

I know this will come across as me being all high and mighty and thinking I am Gods own gift to the martial arts but I run 4 schools and have been teaching since 1978 and this is just how I feel on the situation. Too may times I've had high ranking BB's come into my schools and try to change things to suit their way of thinking about how things should be done. Ain't gonna happen. It's my school, they want to run things their way they can start their own schools. Remember, this is a free country and if you don't like the way things are run, well, leave. That's right, leave, go away and do your own thing.

I've been in the same situations where I've had lower ranking students lead a class for various reasons. When there is a higher ranking student there, BB or not, the person I've chosen to run the class is the one in charge, period, there is no discussion. They are required to show respect to the higher ranking belt and if they are smart they will listen to the higher ranking belt if this person makes a suggestion. But, it is still their class and if something goes wrong or is not to my likeing they will be the ones I will be talking to. If I felt the higher ranking belt could do a better job they would be the one in charge, this is not always the way it is. So, for my students sometimes it's the position not the rank that counts.

 

[wade]

What! Nothing? Come on...... I know there are a lot of people out there that don't agree with me. You want to come into my schools and change the way I teach and the way I want things to be and you feel fully justified that you are right in your way of thinking, eh? I'm old, I'm fat and I have bad knees. You know better fighting styles, you know better self defence, you know better kicking drills, hell, you are younger, prettier (can spell a lot better) and know a heck of a lot more than I do, soooooooo.............................

Hell, I've got people local to me that want to replace me. You'd probably have to stand in line. But! I am still waiting for someone to give me a good reason why I am wrong. Am I gonna change, no, should you still try, yes!

I am sitting here drinking my Jack and waiting........................

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I know this will come across as me being all high and mighty and thinking I am Gods own gift to the martial arts but I run 4 schools and have been teaching since 1978 and this is just how I feel on the situation. Too may times I've had high ranking BB's come into my schools and try to change things to suit their way of thinking about how things should be done. Ain't gonna happen. It's my school, they want to run things their way they can start their own schools. Remember, this is a free country and if you don't like the way things are run, well, leave. That's right, leave, go away and do your own thing.

I've been in the same situations where I've had lower ranking students lead a class for various reasons. When there is a higher ranking student there, BB or not, the person I've chosen to run the class is the one in charge, period, there is no discussion. They are required to show respect to the higher ranking belt and if they are smart they will listen to the higher ranking belt if this person makes a suggestion. But, it is still their class and if something goes wrong or is not to my likeing they will be the ones I will be talking to. If I felt the higher ranking belt could do a better job they would be the one in charge, this is not always the way it is. So, for my students sometimes it's the position not the rank that counts.

I agree. My Judo instructor in college often had a favourite first kyu brown belt run the class (but usually not the technique demonstration which the instructor would try to run through before he had to do something else) even though there were two nidan available. Could the brown belt defeat the second degree black belts in randori? No, of course not, but he set a better example and had more patience (one of the seconds was later invited to train elsewhere).

 

[exile]

What! Nothing? Come on...... I know there are a lot of people out there that don't agree with me. You want to come into my schools and change the way I teach and the way I want things to be and you feel fully justified that you are right in your way of thinking, eh? I'm old, I'm fat and I have bad knees. You know better fighting styles, you know better self defence, you know better kicking drills, hell, you are younger, prettier (can spell a lot better) and know a heck of a lot more than I do, soooooooo.............................

Hell, I've got people local to me that want to replace me. You'd probably have to stand in line. But! I am still waiting for someone to give me a good reason why I am wrong. Am I gonna change, no, should you still try, yes!

I am sitting here drinking my Jack and waiting........................

Hey Wade, I think the more likely thing is, most people agree with what you're saying. It's the school owner's/senior instructor's dime. That doesn't mean TKDM has to like what he's doing, but that's just the way it is.

For what it's worth, I always think the direct approach is best. In TKDM's place, I would approach the owner and explain, respectfully and politely, that I would be glad to carry out any instructional duties he wanted to assign to me, that I think it would be valuable to my own training since teaching something is one of the best ways of really learning it, and then let it go at that. If he doesn't take me up on my offer and if that bothers me enough that it becomes the main thing about that school for me, then I would look for another dojang.

You can't really get inside someone else's mind, but you probably have a better chance of getting things more to your liking doing things along those lines than any other way. It is, as Wade says, his decision in the end, not yours. There's always the possibility that you aren't reading his intentions accurately. What it comes down to is, just how much does the current set-up bother you? If it's unendurable, then finding another school is really your only alternative.

 

[Mark Lynn]

MEL

I few days ago I read your other thread "Need some Feedback" and after reading this one I went back and read that thread or portions of the thread again (your answers) and I was wondering if it is the same school that you are talking about?

Because ....

1) You stated you have only attended that school for 7 months. So how do you know that the office manager has risen through the ranks quickly?

2) The owner of the current school was junior to you before and is now senior to you (rank wise) and it seemed from that thread that you didn't respect them and they didn't respect you (I take it from them not wanting you to test).

3) You were looking into going around the owner and the other black belts to go to your older instructor to see about "skip" testing (skipping a rank).

Now I gather from your other thread that you have been in the MA/TKD for somewhere around 20 years and have gotten the chance to work with several different instructors. I don't question your skill or your rank, in fact I would think that you are ranked below what your actual skill and experience is.

But

1) Why would a person who is put into authority (as office manager/assistant instructor) be expected to turn over her class to someone who has just come into a school and been training. I mean this person from the sounds of it has probably been training their under her master for a longer period than you. She probably knows the master's teachings (the school owners) better than you.

2) And if the owner doesn't respect you enough to allow you to test, why should he trust his class to you?

3) And if you want them to respect you enough to defer teaching responsibilites to you, as in the junior giving the class to you because you have higher rank, shouldn't you respect them in kind to wait upon their time table to test you?

Respect is a two way street.

Submitted with respect
Mark

 

[wade]

Thank to Exile and the Boar Man. Those were nice and clear responces. Sometimes I don't come across well and it helps when others can put things in a more understandably manner. Hmmmm, maybe this is why they don't let me work the front counter.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Hey Wade, I think the more likely thing is, most people agree with what you're saying. It's the school owner's/senior instructor's dime. That doesn't mean TKDM has to like what he's doing, but that's just the way it is.

Wade

I 2nd Exile's comment, I agree with what you said.

 

[Mark Lynn]

For what it's worth, I always think the direct approach is best. In TKDM's place, I would approach the owner and explain, respectfully and politely, that I would be glad to carry out any instructional duties he wanted to assign to me, that I think it would be valuable to my own training since teaching something is one of the best ways of really learning it, and then let it go at that. If he doesn't take me up on my offer and if that bothers me enough that it becomes the main thing about that school for me, then I would look for another dojang.

You can't really get inside someone else's mind, but you probably have a better chance of getting things more to your liking doing things along those lines than any other way. It is, as Wade says, his decision in the end, not yours. There's always the possibility that you aren't reading his intentions accurately. What it comes down to is, just how much does the current set-up bother you? If it's unendurable, then finding another school is really your only alternative.

Exile

I agree here with your post (and Wade's).

MEL

Your in a hard situation and it can be very frustrating. But Exile really brings out the bottom line point (I high lighted it) just how much does the current set up bother you?

I've had to face the same thing before with different schools. Before I might have made a bigger issue about it, but with age and such (mainly depreciating physical abilities) I don't make a big deal with the rank issues at schools. At the current class I'm attending I don't like the way they do forms, but it is the instructor's responsibility for his students, not mine. If asked I may make a suggestion, offer a opinion, but I know my place.

I wear no stripes on my belt so I line up at the end of the black belts next to the junior grades, even though I might out rank the other black belts, they are my seniors in this class. On the same line though if I have a suggestion about adding something to a technique the instructor has shown, I first go to him quietly on the side and discuss it with him.

 

[exile]

Thank to Exile and the Boar Man. Those were nice and clear responces. Sometimes I don't come across well and it helps when others can put things in a more understandably manner. Hmmmm, maybe this is why they don't let me work the front counter.

No, you were plenty clear and to the point, Wade (and also exactly right, I believe!)

 

[TKDmel]

MEL
1) You stated you have only attended that school for 7 months. So how do you know that the office manager has risen through the ranks quickly?

Because she told me when she started (less than 3 years). I may be wrong but I feel that 3 years to BB is a short period of time.

2) The owner of the current school was junior to you before and is now senior to you (rank wise) and it seemed from that thread that you didn't respect them and they didn't respect you (I take it from them not wanting you to test).

The owner of the school is a friend and past fellow student and has tried to back my advancement. He bought the school from one of the masters who have denied me the opportunity to test. The master who sold the school to him is still the landlord and while my friend is trying to help, he fears repercussions from the landlord.

3) You were looking into going around the owner and the other black belts to go to your older instructor to see about "skip" testing (skipping a rank).

Yes, due to several kidney surgeries over the past several years, my goal of testing for 2nd and 3rd dan have come and gone but I am still trying to achieve them.

1) Why would a person who is put into authority (as office manager/assistant instructor) be expected to turn over her class to someone who has just come into a school and been training. I mean this person from the sounds of it has probably been training their under her master for a longer period than you. She probably knows the master's teachings (the school owners) better than you.

The manager was hired by the master who is stoping me from testing. When he saw the school was failing, he sold it to my friend. My friend is a nice guy and didn't want to let her go so he kept her on as manager since he also worked full time. It was a matter of having someone(adult) there to pick up kids for the kids class until he got there from his job rather than whether she was knowledgeable or not.

2) And if the owner doesn't respect you enough to allow you to test, why should he trust his class to you?

I believe that the owner(my friend) highly respects me and has many, many times during class asked me for answers to questions he was unsure of, posed by fellow students. I am always willing to help out in any way I can, and have contributed to the school in building a huge display case for the items he sells at the school. He is fully aware of my abilities.

3) And if you want them to respect you enough to defer teaching responsibilites to you, as in the junior giving the class to you because you have higher rank, shouldn't you respect them in kind to wait upon their time table to test you?

It is not just about rank. It is about experience, teaching different aspects of TKD that are not taught, such as discipline and respect, and lastly, as stated before BBs need to teach 60 hrs. of classes in order to test. Fortunately I have been able to teach at other schools I've attended so I have met and exceeded all the requirements set forth by the "masters" and just want the opportunity to test. But if other students getting ready to test are not given the opportunity to teach how can they fullfill the requirements?

 

[terryl965]

TKDMel I see your delima but here is the bottom line the school owner has given here what he believes she has earned and has granted her the place of running these classes for him, with that in mind you have only two choices go and train or find a new place. Sorry for being so blunt but going and talking to him is wrong that means you do not approve of his choices so if that is the case then why are you here. That is what I tell my BB if I put this one in charge it is there class until I say so not any of them. Maybe he is trying to get her experience in the training aspect.

Sir I'm with you about respect but respect has to go both ways here.

 

[Mark Lynn]

1) Because she told me when she started (less than 3 years). I may be wrong but I feel that 3 years to BB is a short period of time.

2) The owner of the school is a friend and past fellow student and has tried to back my advancement. He bought the school from one of the masters who have denied me the opportunity to test. The master who sold the school to him is still the landlord and while my friend is trying to help, he fears repercussions from the landlord.

3) Yes, due to several kidney surgeries over the past several years, my goal of testing for 2nd and 3rd dan have come and gone but I am still trying to achieve them.

4) The manager was hired by the master who is stoping me from testing. When he saw the school was failing, he sold it to my friend. My friend is a nice guy and didn't want to let her go so he kept her on as manager since he also worked full time. It was a matter of having someone(adult) there to pick up kids for the kids class until he got there from his job rather than whether she was knowledgeable or not.

5) I believe that the owner(my friend) highly respects me and has many, many times during class asked me for answers to questions he was unsure of, posed by fellow students. I am always willing to help out in any way I can, and have contributed to the school in building a huge display case for the items he sells at the school. He is fully aware of my abilities.

6) It is not just about rank. It is about experience, teaching different aspects of TKD that are not taught, such as discipline and respect, and lastly, as stated before BBs need to teach 60 hrs. of classes in order to test. Fortunately I have been able to teach at other schools I've attended so I have met and exceeded all the requirements set forth by the "masters" and just want the opportunity to test. But if other students getting ready to test are not given the opportunity to teach how can they fullfill the requirements?

TKDMEL

Thanks for your reply and your responses this clears things up for me, I apologize if I gave offense.

1) It took me 7 years to get to black belt so I too feel 3 years might be to short, but it is not my school, so my opinion (and yours too for that matter) don't really count.

2) Don't get me wrong but your friend needs to grow a backbone. If the master is the land lord and this is a business, and your friend is paying the bills. The land lord/master needs to stay out of it if your freind is truely taken over the school and is now running things.

3) Very good!

4) Then maybe your freind needs to help here instruct better on the side. But again this is his call not yours. He is the owner.

5) Well maybe you can meet with him and discuss how you can help his school succeed. And you can discuss why it was failing before and what you can do better to make it better for the students.

6) Again I think you can discuss this stuff with your friend on how to try and make the school better for the students. If you are an instructor at the school and recognized as one than I would have a staff meeting along with the office manager to discuss these things. She should be included as she is the office manager. But I would not make it a whine session about you not teaching but rather how can we make it better as a TEAM (for lack of a better word).

Bottom line though is your freind is the owner and what he says goes, if he doesn't want to deal with it. Oh well.

Mark