Should one stick strictly to what is taugh to them, or experiment for themselves?

[Kenlee25]

Recently I've gotten into arguments over the "loyalty" one should have towards their chosen art. One should stick strictly to what is taught in the dojo and apply the moves to real life situations...but that does not seem to sit right with me. After all, in my mind, Martial arts were originally the product of experimentation. Someone had to have experimented with their own bodies and how to use them to combat another individual right? Most martial arts even have their roots in older martial arts after all, and were simply offshoots or experimentation.

So why is it apparently wrong to deviate from what is taught if it works for you? For example, Blocking a kick with my hand rather than my forearm seems like a better idea to me, yet in Taekwondo and Karate classes blocking with the forearm is exactly what is taught. Just the same, If I wanted to practice a technique such as say, A hooking palm strike ( not a slap ), Why do some people see it so wrong if I can still maintain speed precision and power in the strike while it is still safe for me?? Is it really just because it is not a move taught in the dojo?


I would greatly appreciate you guy's opinion's on the matter. Feel free to tell me if I am wrong or not.

 

[K-man]

Not only are you right but you are on track to become a top martial artist. Back decades ago when many of the guys on this forum began training we were taught pretty basic martial art, especially karate. The karate taught was school boy karate and the explanations we were given were wrong in many instances. TKD had only just started and was heading to sport status and Bruce Lee was a teenager and not known to the outside world. Unfortunately many schools are still teaching the same stuff. Unless people like you start to question what you are taught and pressure test everything, poor instruction will continue.

I would hazard a guess that what works for you is probably the way it should have been taught in the first place. I teach a hooking palm strike, not a big swinging swipe like a haymaker but a shot from kamae powered from the hips. It is one of the 'heavy hand' techniques. In karate it is in many of the kata but in such a way that it would not be recognised as such. I think the term is 'happa ken'.

I don't believe in 'blocking' anything although many on this forum disagree with me. The fact is that in schoolboy karate 'uke' is taken to mean 'block' when it really means 'receive'. (Blocks are instinctive and reflex. You don't have to learn how to block.) To try and stop a full blooded kick with your forearm is asking for a busted arm and I know of several people who have done that. (It is actually wrong technique rather than wrong defence.) I would much rather use the hand to catch or redirect.

I don't believe that you are being 'disloyal' for questioning. I believe you have every right to question, in a respectful way of course, and a good teacher should be able to explain why one way is better than the other. In my class you would be invited to pressure test you moves and if they worked you would be encouraged to employ them in your sparring.

Good luck with your training. .:asian:

 

[seasoned]

The problem being, what did those young Marines learn or what were they taught in the mid to late 50s. They got the kata down, but did they get the foundation of what the kata was teaching. When they did ask questions, the answer was "just train" in a broken English. But those that did go back after their military service was over, and took the time to develop a relationship with the Okinawans, did very well. Anyway that was then and this is now................

Yes, good luck with your training.............

 

[Buka]

Recently I've gotten into arguments over the "loyalty" one should have towards their chosen art. One should stick strictly to what is taught in the dojo and apply the moves to real life situations...but that does not seem to sit right with me. After all, in my mind, Martial arts were originally the product of experimentation. Someone had to have experimented with their own bodies and how to use them to combat another individual right? Most martial arts even have their roots in older martial arts after all, and were simply offshoots or experimentation.

So why is it apparently wrong to deviate from what is taught if it works for you? For example, Blocking a kick with my hand rather than my forearm seems like a better idea to me, yet in Taekwondo and Karate classes blocking with the forearm is exactly what is taught. Just the same, If I wanted to practice a technique such as say, A hooking palm strike ( not a slap ), Why do some people see it so wrong if I can still maintain speed precision and power in the strike while it is still safe for me?? Is it really just because it is not a move taught in the dojo?


I would greatly appreciate you guy's opinion's on the matter. Feel free to tell me if I am wrong or not.

It depends. How much time do you have in? (How much actual instruction?)

 

[Big Don]

Both

 

[Kenlee25]

It depends. How much time do you have in? (How much actual instruction?)

11 years, but seeing as I'm only 18, I'll only count the last 6 years, as I didn't get serious until I was about 12.

I'm not sure how many actual hours I have, but it's well over enough to achieve third degree black belt I've been told. There was a long while in which I lost interest in testing and really only wanted to learn new skills/work on sparring. So I can easily say I have hundreds of hours put in over the years.

 

[MA-Caver]

Bruce Lee created Jeet Kune Do for the purpose of experimenting. But my suggestion to you is get to know your base art very well first before expanding out. At least you'll have a solid base for comparison, true comparison not just "an idea".
My base art is Wing Chun, but I've expanded outwards to learn various arts along the way of my own personal journey through this life of mine. My MA-journey doesn't parallel nor is above or beneath the (life's) journey, it's woven as part of the fabric that makes it's path as I travel down it. Remember, there is never a destination.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Recently I've gotten into arguments over the "loyalty" one should have towards their chosen art. One should stick strictly to what is taught in the dojo and apply the moves to real life situations...but that does not seem to sit right with me.

When your loyalty is challenged it hurts. I know. Yet do not let that hurt control you.

If the art does not fit you, you may need to leave. If you do I would have a sit down with the Senior instructor and explain that it just is not working for you and that you do not want to be a problem in the school.

After all, in my mind, Martial arts were originally the product of experimentation. Someone had to have experimented with their own bodies and how to use them to combat another individual right?

Yes they were. But many people see others with no skill doing experimentation and wonder WHY? Why not just do it THIS WAY that is being taught HERE?
Some systems are self defense. Others are mind, body and spirit. Others are education for physical fitness and others are the preservation of something from the past.

How is your club or school approaching it? None are wrong or right but it might give you some insight on what to look for to have a better training experience.

Most martial arts even have their roots in older martial arts after all, and were simply offshoots or experimentation.

Depends upon the system, and what the admit to be their truth. Some will say it was created 700 year ago and it was the first. Seriously in all human history only 700 years ago? So if this bothers you may have to leave. If you can get by this then you see why your comment could be causing stress to the instructors and others in the club if it not the dogma being taught.

So why is it apparently wrong to deviate from what is taught if it works for you?

1) It is wrong because it is not that system. If you want to do something else go find another system.
2) If you see other systems you might leave that one and that means less money for them to pay their rent.
3) It is wrong as the next series of techniques you are going to learn will nto work as you are out of position. So now they have to retrain you (Again).

For example, Blocking a kick with my hand rather than my forearm seems like a better idea to me, yet in Taekwondo and Karate classes blocking with the forearm is exactly what is taught. Just the same, If I wanted to practice a technique such as say, A hooking palm strike ( not a slap ), Why do some people see it so wrong if I can still maintain speed precision and power in the strike while it is still safe for me??

Blocking with hand can work. But the issues are the following: Jammed fingers and or wrist. Broken fingers or wrist. If they adjust their strike then you have to chase them and no room for error. Where if a forearm block is your techinque and you drop the strike you might catch it with a hammer fist and still "block".

Blocking comes on many forms.
1) I am going to hit you so hard with a bone that you are not going to want to put that striking appendage out again.
2) I am checking you and or trying to only stop you from really damaging me ( some absorbtion )
3) Passing / redirecting their energy
4) etcetera

Is it really just because it is not a move taught in the dojo?

See above. It could be. It could be about money. It could be about ego. It could be seen as a challenge to them and their system. (* You are now wanting to teach something to the class and the isntructor *)

I would greatly appreciate you guy's opinion's on the matter. Feel free to tell me if I am wrong or not.

Personally, I agree with the comment of yes cross training is good, but you need a base system to branch out from. If you are just learning one and try another you will mess up footwork and body shifting and weight placement and should position and ... , .


If those you train with are too closed and will not allow new ideas in, ask if it preservation and you are ok with and can stay or is it ego and or fear in which case I would have to consider leaving.

 

[jks9199]

There's a place to experiment and make the art your own. There's also a time to follow the rules and do just what you're taught so that you can internalize and really understand the principles that underlie it. One of the biggest mistakes I've seen people make is not taking the time to really understand the basics, then jumping around and justifying it with the label "cross-training." I won't put a time frame on it, either in number of repititions or time, because it just depends on the system, and the student too much. When the experimentation feels natural, and more importantly, seems like it could be part of the textbook -- you're ready. When your experimentation ends up looking like some confused mish-mash or lacks the principles of your art -- stop, go back, and hit those textbook basics again. Think about it -- even a master musician like Yo-Yo Ma still practices scales...

 

[DarkShadowfax]

Both. I myself practice Krav Maga where we we can use all we want.
For the belt tests, we do have to know certain techniques, even though they don't work with certain body types (I'm short). I've used those techniques for some time now, but as of lately, my trainers and I have been trying to find solutions to my height problem. If they work, we keep them, and if they don't, we keep to the techniques.

 

[zDom]

Recently I've gotten into arguments over the "loyalty" one should have towards their chosen art. One should stick strictly to what is taught in the dojo and apply the moves to real life situations...but that does not seem to sit right with me. After all, in my mind, Martial arts were originally the product of experimentation. Someone had to have experimented with their own bodies and how to use them to combat another individual right? Most martial arts even have their roots in older martial arts after all, and were simply offshoots or experimentation.

So why is it apparently wrong to deviate from what is taught if it works for you? For example, Blocking a kick with my hand rather than my forearm seems like a better idea to me, yet in Taekwondo and Karate classes blocking with the forearm is exactly what is taught. Just the same, If I wanted to practice a technique such as say, A hooking palm strike ( not a slap ), Why do some people see it so wrong if I can still maintain speed precision and power in the strike while it is still safe for me?? Is it really just because it is not a move taught in the dojo?

In my opinion,

If you respect an instructor and school enough to train there, work to master the techniques and curriculum as taught. It is possible that techniques you prefer will be included later in the curriculum with earlier material establishing a foundation for later material. This is especially important if you have intentions of passing on that art to the next generation.

I think it is detrimental to a martial artist's develop to discard a technique they haven't mastered yet as "ineffective" or even "not their preference."

As for how you fight? Fight how you feel comfortable and confident fighting. I would not blindly adhere to ANY system during combat simply to remain "loyal" to an art. Be true to yourself

As for one of your specific examples, I found in my training that using forearms with a closed fist is a good starting place as it protects the hand. An inexperienced student can easily jam a finger or sprain a wrist trying to block with palm strikes or other open handed blocking techniques against a kick.

Once proper direction of movement, timing and focus have developed, however, knifehanded blocks become viable as well as blocking with the palm heel.

I see nothing wrong with you using hooking palm strikes in your self defense if that is what you feel comfortable with. But when doing a poomse or kata you shouldn't substitute this technique for the hand strike that is called for in the form in a formal class situations. But in your private practice time I don't see why not as long as you get enough repetition doing the actual form as designed so when you are asked to demonstrate it for a test or in competition you can do so without putting in the wrong technique.

That is just my opinion and how I would advise you if you were a student at my school.

Have you asked your instructor what he or she thinks?

 

[Kenlee25]

keep the opinions coming i am enjoying them

but I must clarify, This is NOT an concern between my instructor/school and I. It was mostly a debate that came up among real life friends and other people online. I have no problem following the rules and being taught, but still I sometimes wonder "is there not a better way?"

My actual instructor ( one of them ) is pretty open to things. He's been in street fights before ( after learning the art ) so sometimes randomly during his lectures he will tell me little alternate uses to moves ( such as using a very awkward looking twist kick on the opponent's knee to make them drop then following through with a strong downward hook...I doubt that would ever work for me as I Just can't get my leg to do that, but it worked for him. )

 

[Josh Oakley]

I like to look at it from the philosophy of science. You have to have a foundation of knowledge from which to experiment. Without it, your results won't mean much. However, some really good teachers of both science and of martial arts have helped their students understand core principles specifically by having them experiment. The teacher can use the student's experimentation as a vehicle for learning WHY the standard view is such as it is.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[zDom]

Interesting thing to add to this topic:

I once again had an opportunity to train with Bong Yul Shin, 9th dan judo, (75 years old! and in better shape than any of us) last weekend at our organization's annual convention.


One of the things he said, verbatim, after teaching a choke that starts from a standing position and goes to the ground (to conform with judo's newer "no standing chokes" rule)
was,

"Create your own techniques."

He told us to train, try things, and find what works for us .... "Create your own techniques."

It is important to note, however, that it was a black belt class. I am sure that Shin also advocates learning required forms so you have developed an thorough understanding of basic principles.​

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Blocking a kick with my hand rather than my forearm seems like a better idea to me, yet in Taekwondo and Karate classes blocking with the forearm is exactly what is taught. Just the same, If I wanted to practice a technique such as say, A hooking palm strike ( not a slap ), Why do some people see it so wrong if I can still maintain speed precision and power in the strike while it is still safe for me?? Is it really just because it is not a move taught in the dojo?

First of all, I would suggest you can do whatever you wish outside the dojo, and inside the dojo, do what it is you're being taught. I would also suggest that sometimes there are reasons for doing things a particular way that you don't see; such understanding can come in time.

As far as blocking kicks with an open hand, let me show you how I learned not to do that - the hard way...

[video=youtube_share;0fl02GKhEZc]http://youtu.be/0fl02GKhEZc[/video]

I apologize in advance for the low quality, the music, etc. This video was made by a young student at our dojo with his cell phone and he edited it by refilming it on his laptop. Not my choice.

If you want to just see the part where you don't block a kick with an open hand, check out 4:41. It has been nearly a year since then and my fingers still hurt. You do what you like; I won't do that again.

 

[Instructor]

Recently I've gotten into arguments over the "loyalty" one should have towards their chosen art. One should stick strictly to what is taught in the dojo and apply the moves to real life situations...but that does not seem to sit right with me. After all, in my mind, Martial arts were originally the product of experimentation. Someone had to have experimented with their own bodies and how to use them to combat another individual right? Most martial arts even have their roots in older martial arts after all, and were simply offshoots or experimentation.

So why is it apparently wrong to deviate from what is taught if it works for you? For example, Blocking a kick with my hand rather than my forearm seems like a better idea to me, yet in Taekwondo and Karate classes blocking with the forearm is exactly what is taught. Just the same, If I wanted to practice a technique such as say, A hooking palm strike ( not a slap ), Why do some people see it so wrong if I can still maintain speed precision and power in the strike while it is still safe for me?? Is it really just because it is not a move taught in the dojo?


I would greatly appreciate you guy's opinion's on the matter. Feel free to tell me if I am wrong or not.

You are on the right track. If something is effective then use it. For example I was taught about blocking front kicks with the forearm but more often than naught I simply attack the kickers foot with a downward elbow. It's painful and impedes further kicking. Nobody taught me this, I just did it one day and now it's part of me, I even teach it.

I should note thought that I also still teach the traditional low block, you have to start somewhere.

 

[Master Dan]

Well if your lower rank you should trust what your instructor wants you to do or go to one you can trust. Second you instructor may have reasons for at that moment wanting things done in a certain way to prevent injury or other issues. Things do need to work and adaption made related to self defense specifice to each person's ability and anatomy the street cares little to tradition or sport and a good instructor will teach you the difference

 

[puunui]

For example I was taught about blocking front kicks with the forearm but more often than naught I simply attack the kickers foot with a downward elbow. It's painful and impedes further kicking. Nobody taught me this, I just did it one day and now it's part of me, I even teach it.

We used to see that a lot in taekwondo matches, people hurting their instep by kicking an elbow. It usually occurs when the kicker doesn't turn his hip or foot over when doing roundhouse, and instead does the lazier 45 degree front kick/roundhouse kick. But if you turn your hip over on the roundhouse, then that issue is eliminated pretty much completely.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

I think that we as Martial Artists should grow, evolve, be pragmatic, and be creative. I think that we should have that freedom instead of following the rigid, dogmatic why and worry about copying what the teacher do. This the Shuhari concept. Shu - means to copy Ha - means to break away and Ri - means to abandon and make your art your own. I say from white belt to green belt you are in the Shu process, from Green to brown you are in the Ha process and at Black Belt you are in the Ri stage where you can let your creativity manifest.

These days or it has been going on for many years, traditional dojos can act too much of a dictatorship like "you must do what I do." How can a student grow and be creative? That is telling students what to think instead of how to think. We need to be pragmatic more than just looking at only historical and only copy what the past masters did.

 

[clfsean]

I think that we as Martial Artists should grow, evolve, be pragmatic, and be creative. I think that we should have that freedom instead of following the rigid, dogmatic why and worry about copying what the teacher do. This the Shuhari concept. Shu - means to copy Ha - means to break away and Ri - means to abandon and make your art your own. I say from white belt to green belt you are in the Shu process, from Green to brown you are in the Ha process and at Black Belt you are in the Ri stage where you can let your creativity manifest.

These days or it has been going on for many years, traditional dojos can act too much of a dictatorship like "you must do what I do." How can a student grow and be creative? That is telling students what to think instead of how to think. We need to be pragmatic more than just looking at only historical and only copy what the past masters did.

It's not that... it's getting you to grow in a specific manner, going down a specific path. If you don't like that path, get off it & find another.

But if you want what that path has to offer, you accept the guidance & assistance to make the journey down it, successful.