Chuck Johnson
Yellow Belt
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2012
- Messages
- 27
- Reaction score
- 5
Greetings all. Just posted Episode 6 of the show. Hope everyone is doing well!
Chuck
Chuck
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How to Defeat Dudes Episode 6: Bar Scenarios
- Thread starter Chuck Johnson
- Start date
Nice, Chuck. I appreciate the disclaimer stuff at the end. With that said, no comment on the techniques you demonstrated; as you mentioned, there are lots of different techniques out there, I would like to say this.
1) Stay the hell out of bars. No bar, no bar fight.
2) Dudes in bars who start trouble are seldom alone. If you floor the guy, even if he's got it coming and you put him down in one shot, his buddies will be on you in a flash. They're probably within a couple feet of you at that moment.
Enjoying the videos!
1) Stay the hell out of bars. No bar, no bar fight.
2) Dudes in bars who start trouble are seldom alone. If you floor the guy, even if he's got it coming and you put him down in one shot, his buddies will be on you in a flash. They're probably within a couple feet of you at that moment.
Enjoying the videos!
But Bar Crawling!
...In all seriousness, I was bemused by the subtitles.
Elbowing someone in the head for getting in your face is a bit excessive, but itd work.
Id prefer shoving, if You absolutely must incite violence. That way, You can prepare Yourself a bit more than "Hes in My Face! ATTACK!"
The second ones issues are presented by You, Good Sir.
Boxing the ears is a risk, in that He may well move His Head. He wont likely hold still. If it hits square but, swell.
And if thats what You were stressing, Youre on the right track, clearly.
Yeah, I understand. But I'm older now and do not need to drink.
And when thinks about it. One goes to a bar to hang out with friends, relax and catch a buzz. People who have a buzz do not make rational decisions, their reaction times are not what they think they are, and as we all know, one of the stages of drunkenness is 'bulletproof'. It's how fights happen and a great way to avoid them is to not be there.
A friend of mine once commented about some patrons in a bar "Oh great, I'm surrounded by idiots!" Another of my friends (the smart one) said, "If you've managed to let idiots surround you, how smart are you?" I thought it was an excellent point. Don't go in bars and idiots will not surround you.
Enjoyed the video. I'd like to see a bar scenario where a guy and his buddy go to a bar, then like, drink beer and stuff past closing time, have a great night without any violence, go to a club, eat a massive doner kebab, get invited to a house party, fall asleep in the back garden and then do the walk of shame home the next day. I'd like to see strategies and tactics for dealing with normal human contact durinng that walk. I have to say, I wouldn't have a clue what to do, because that has never happened to me. Not ever. No.
Chuck, as always, I love your friendly and humorous presentation and professional quality production. On the other hand, I felt that you didn't really communicate much of value here. On one hand you show some techniques that could work, but on the other hand you explain why those same techniques might not work and, even if they did, could get you into legal trouble. That leaves the student with one good message... that avoiding fights and using de-escalation techniques is the best option. But, again, you give no information on how to accomplish this. So the student is left confused and ambivalent. That is not a helpful frame of mind to be in when a violent situation is unfolding.
De-escalation is good, but without training and practice, it's tough to de-escalate in the heat of the moment... when the "monkey dance" is already in progress. The short of it is that, even if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people (like a rowdy bar scene most any time) you should never let someone get all up into your face like that to begin with. A good place to begin is by teaching "the fence":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OJnZG3joA&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLB15F8EA6D011300B
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FGLhlakkUk&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLB15F8EA6D011300B
De-escalation is good, but without training and practice, it's tough to de-escalate in the heat of the moment... when the "monkey dance" is already in progress. The short of it is that, even if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people (like a rowdy bar scene most any time) you should never let someone get all up into your face like that to begin with. A good place to begin is by teaching "the fence":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FGLhlakkUk&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLB15F8EA6D011300B
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Yeah, I'm with Geezer on pretty much everything there, but I'd also add that your choices of technique are rather different to what I'd choose, for a range of reasons. But first, I'm going to embed your video, to make it easier to refer back to:
(Again, I'd recommend you do the same... you'll get more views, it'll be more inviting for people going through the threads, and you can minimise some of the unfortunate aspects of linking to youtube as a url, which I'll cover here).
Right, first off, the elbow strike. Speaking from a purely technical point of view, it's actually not that good from where you are, as you're not really stable with your feet even, you're over-reaching for the strike, you don't have a lot of power-generation there, and you're basically just glancing across his head, rather than striking through the target. Next, if your opponent is much taller than you are, there really isn't much in the way of targets, as the head will be hard to reach, and his arms are protecting his ribs/body, making it a rather ineffective action for a range of situations. Finally, you are telegraphing way too much (lifting your shoulder, bringing the other hand up, and so on). And when you go "full speed", due to the poor body placement, you over extend, and start to lose your balance. Not a good technique at all.
Now, if you want to use an elbow, first thing is to get into a position where you can actually launch it... so your initial action should be to try to gain a bit of space by stepping back with either your right or left leg, and raise your hands into Geezer's aforementioned "fence". From there, your arm is already in position, you're far more stable, you can sink into the strike for power, and you've given yourself room so you're not so cramped, limiting your power delivery.
You then speak about the issues with the elbow... none of which are issues with the elbow strike itself (which had plenty), instead addressing legal issues... and missing all of them. You state that, if the elbow lands with some power, you rattle them, it's all good. But if it doesn't work out, you've just started the violence, and can have legal issues. Can you tell me, Chuck, how have you not started the violence if your strike is effective? How do you not have the same legal issues whether your strike lands or not, if the issue is you starting the physical violence in the first place? Additionally, you seem to not understand the legal systems that you are addressing... in Australia, for instance, throwing the first strike isn't necessarily against the law, provided it is done due to you feeling threatened, and the aggressor (the guy gettin' all up in your grill...) has the "present ability" to carry out the threats you feel they are going to attempt. You can't continue with the assault, as the aim is to escape, but a strike to provide the option/ability to escape is allowed, certainly. But the point is that you are trying to address legal issues without actually having any understanding of them... which is something to be avoided, ideally. It's as useful as telling people that they should be verbally defusing a situation, but not giving a clue as to what is needed, what is to be avoided, and so on... possibly worse, honestly.
Next we have your Knuckle Choke, which you say "is much better for you legally!" Hmm, we'll see about that.
Your technique is against a front grab with both hands. Okay, all cool so far. Your response is to grab both collars, and turn your knuckles in to push against the sides of the throat, crushing the trachea. Hmm, not so good, really. You may not intend it, or even realise it, but that is considered illegal in most security and law enforcement here, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was similar around most of the world. The reason is that this is considered a "choke", which affects the airways (the trachea), and does so by causing trauma and pressure to the throat. This trauma can then cause the trachea to bruise and swell, cutting off air in a more permanent way... which can happen an hour or so after the choke was first applied. If that happens, it's emergency tracheotomy time, if anyone has a pen handy... Additionally, the way you're applying it is similar to the elbow strike... you're glancing across your actual target. This isn't really good for much other than a bit of pain (which, for the record, is great, and can give you a chance to escape... but I wouldn't rely on it myself, as it takes too long, is too fiddly to get on, relies on pain being a factor, and is rather low-return).
Instead of using a choke, what is legally preferred is to use what is referred to as a "strangle", which applies to techniques that affect the blood supply to the head/brain, which has far less chance of potential later issues (provided, of course, you release it at a reasonable time... when they give up, or pass out. A good rule of thumb is that 15 seconds is the longest you'd apply such a technique, whether they're out or not. If they are, you don't need to hold it any more, and if they're not, you haven't applied it properly anyway, so move onto something else). Strangles can come on faster than chokes, are more effective, more gross-motor for the most part, more versatile, can be used on either side or both, and are a far more legally-safe option in most areas. That said, there are far more effective, and faster, things that you could do, as a choke from there isn't really that easy (again, you're just a little too cramped for it to be optimal).
The first thing you should really be dealing with is someone pushing and pulling you around, so you'd need to teach dropping weight, getting one foot in front for stability, grabbing over the top of the bad guys hands for control (physical and mental), and then seeing what's available. If you want to inflict pain to get them to let go, there are any number of handles that will become available once you drop your weight. You may even use pain to get them to release their grip (with one leg in front for stability), then apply a knee strike. In fact, that's pretty much what I'd have here instead of this.
Right, to your self-confessed problems with your own technique (not sure if it's smart to tell people that you're giving them answers, then point out the problems with what you're showing them... doesn't really give a feeling of confidence that what you're presenting works). The big one is that, if the other guy is wearing a t-shirt, it won't work. Uh, actually, Chuck, bring both your hands down (palm down) on their shoulders, so that your fingers wrap around the back of their shoulders, which will allow you to pull forward as you push your thumb (or thumb knuckle) into the side of the throat/neck (I'd pick neck, safer, faster, more immediate pain, and so on)... so, done! It'll work! Hmm, your problem with your technique is easily fixed, you know...
Right, the third technique, the Ear Box. Let's run through a few things here....
"Now, the good thing about boxing somebody's ears is it doesn't necessarily cause permanent damage..." 4:43
Actually, Chuck, it can. Very easily. There's a reason it's primarily a military technique, not a security one. What you're doing is forcing air into the ear canal, which can burst an eardrum remarkably easily. Now, if you don't consider making someone deaf in one or both ears permanently "damage", that's your take... but this is hardly the safest thing to do to someone (for them). When trained, it is done one of two ways; either with your finger tips around the ear (and no contact to the ear itself with your palm), or by clapping (slamming, really) your hands together over their head to get used to how to execute it. And that's because you really can't do it properly without some form of major damage being a high risk.
You then try to address legal issues again... and get them very wrong this time. You may hit first, but the scenario you're giving us has the aggressor grab your collar/shirt, pull you in tight, and scream (threats) at you... I'm going to say it's pretty obvious who started the physical side of the assault here, and it ain't the guy whose already been grabbed. Secondly, you again seem to think that the result of that action is what determines whether or not you are seen as legally in trouble, except last time you were in trouble if it didn't work, this time you're in trouble if it does... hmm.
You finish by saying that there's a lot of things you can do, including eye-gouging, ripping off ears (hmm, I didn't think we were going for permanent damage here?), as "his hands are busy, your hands are free". Well, they can be, but really, no. Your hands, as they pull you around, will be looking for some form of control, or grip, typically on the other guy, and you've completely failed to address such realities, stabilising yourself, getting control back, dropping your weight, and much more. Basically all the important stuff that would let any of the rest of this clip have the slightest chance at working and being usable... especially for non-martial artists, as you say this is aimed at.
You finish by telling us that no technique works all the time, there will be situations that they work for, and situations where they don't... so you need to train many different techniques for all those different situations in order to have some hope of success. Now, Chuck, you're targeting this at non-martial artists. People who have decided that martial art training is not for them. A good reason may be that they feel it's too complicated, you can't learn a different thing for every situation, it takes too long, there's too much to remember, and so on. And you've just told each of those people that those reasons they haven't attended a school are going to be present in your video presentations. You may not understand your audience all that well, honestly. I'd also point out that what you say is completely incorrect. You do not, at all, want to be training different things for each situation, just in case, as you will never spend enough time on what you need. And what you need is a core set of skills, some basic principles and tactics, and the ability to apply them in a large variety of situations, not something different for each circumstance.
Right, first off, the elbow strike. Speaking from a purely technical point of view, it's actually not that good from where you are, as you're not really stable with your feet even, you're over-reaching for the strike, you don't have a lot of power-generation there, and you're basically just glancing across his head, rather than striking through the target. Next, if your opponent is much taller than you are, there really isn't much in the way of targets, as the head will be hard to reach, and his arms are protecting his ribs/body, making it a rather ineffective action for a range of situations. Finally, you are telegraphing way too much (lifting your shoulder, bringing the other hand up, and so on). And when you go "full speed", due to the poor body placement, you over extend, and start to lose your balance. Not a good technique at all.
Now, if you want to use an elbow, first thing is to get into a position where you can actually launch it... so your initial action should be to try to gain a bit of space by stepping back with either your right or left leg, and raise your hands into Geezer's aforementioned "fence". From there, your arm is already in position, you're far more stable, you can sink into the strike for power, and you've given yourself room so you're not so cramped, limiting your power delivery.
You then speak about the issues with the elbow... none of which are issues with the elbow strike itself (which had plenty), instead addressing legal issues... and missing all of them. You state that, if the elbow lands with some power, you rattle them, it's all good. But if it doesn't work out, you've just started the violence, and can have legal issues. Can you tell me, Chuck, how have you not started the violence if your strike is effective? How do you not have the same legal issues whether your strike lands or not, if the issue is you starting the physical violence in the first place? Additionally, you seem to not understand the legal systems that you are addressing... in Australia, for instance, throwing the first strike isn't necessarily against the law, provided it is done due to you feeling threatened, and the aggressor (the guy gettin' all up in your grill...) has the "present ability" to carry out the threats you feel they are going to attempt. You can't continue with the assault, as the aim is to escape, but a strike to provide the option/ability to escape is allowed, certainly. But the point is that you are trying to address legal issues without actually having any understanding of them... which is something to be avoided, ideally. It's as useful as telling people that they should be verbally defusing a situation, but not giving a clue as to what is needed, what is to be avoided, and so on... possibly worse, honestly.
Next we have your Knuckle Choke, which you say "is much better for you legally!" Hmm, we'll see about that.
Your technique is against a front grab with both hands. Okay, all cool so far. Your response is to grab both collars, and turn your knuckles in to push against the sides of the throat, crushing the trachea. Hmm, not so good, really. You may not intend it, or even realise it, but that is considered illegal in most security and law enforcement here, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was similar around most of the world. The reason is that this is considered a "choke", which affects the airways (the trachea), and does so by causing trauma and pressure to the throat. This trauma can then cause the trachea to bruise and swell, cutting off air in a more permanent way... which can happen an hour or so after the choke was first applied. If that happens, it's emergency tracheotomy time, if anyone has a pen handy... Additionally, the way you're applying it is similar to the elbow strike... you're glancing across your actual target. This isn't really good for much other than a bit of pain (which, for the record, is great, and can give you a chance to escape... but I wouldn't rely on it myself, as it takes too long, is too fiddly to get on, relies on pain being a factor, and is rather low-return).
Instead of using a choke, what is legally preferred is to use what is referred to as a "strangle", which applies to techniques that affect the blood supply to the head/brain, which has far less chance of potential later issues (provided, of course, you release it at a reasonable time... when they give up, or pass out. A good rule of thumb is that 15 seconds is the longest you'd apply such a technique, whether they're out or not. If they are, you don't need to hold it any more, and if they're not, you haven't applied it properly anyway, so move onto something else). Strangles can come on faster than chokes, are more effective, more gross-motor for the most part, more versatile, can be used on either side or both, and are a far more legally-safe option in most areas. That said, there are far more effective, and faster, things that you could do, as a choke from there isn't really that easy (again, you're just a little too cramped for it to be optimal).
The first thing you should really be dealing with is someone pushing and pulling you around, so you'd need to teach dropping weight, getting one foot in front for stability, grabbing over the top of the bad guys hands for control (physical and mental), and then seeing what's available. If you want to inflict pain to get them to let go, there are any number of handles that will become available once you drop your weight. You may even use pain to get them to release their grip (with one leg in front for stability), then apply a knee strike. In fact, that's pretty much what I'd have here instead of this.
Right, to your self-confessed problems with your own technique (not sure if it's smart to tell people that you're giving them answers, then point out the problems with what you're showing them... doesn't really give a feeling of confidence that what you're presenting works). The big one is that, if the other guy is wearing a t-shirt, it won't work. Uh, actually, Chuck, bring both your hands down (palm down) on their shoulders, so that your fingers wrap around the back of their shoulders, which will allow you to pull forward as you push your thumb (or thumb knuckle) into the side of the throat/neck (I'd pick neck, safer, faster, more immediate pain, and so on)... so, done! It'll work! Hmm, your problem with your technique is easily fixed, you know...
Right, the third technique, the Ear Box. Let's run through a few things here....
"Now, the good thing about boxing somebody's ears is it doesn't necessarily cause permanent damage..." 4:43
Actually, Chuck, it can. Very easily. There's a reason it's primarily a military technique, not a security one. What you're doing is forcing air into the ear canal, which can burst an eardrum remarkably easily. Now, if you don't consider making someone deaf in one or both ears permanently "damage", that's your take... but this is hardly the safest thing to do to someone (for them). When trained, it is done one of two ways; either with your finger tips around the ear (and no contact to the ear itself with your palm), or by clapping (slamming, really) your hands together over their head to get used to how to execute it. And that's because you really can't do it properly without some form of major damage being a high risk.
You then try to address legal issues again... and get them very wrong this time. You may hit first, but the scenario you're giving us has the aggressor grab your collar/shirt, pull you in tight, and scream (threats) at you... I'm going to say it's pretty obvious who started the physical side of the assault here, and it ain't the guy whose already been grabbed. Secondly, you again seem to think that the result of that action is what determines whether or not you are seen as legally in trouble, except last time you were in trouble if it didn't work, this time you're in trouble if it does... hmm.
You finish by saying that there's a lot of things you can do, including eye-gouging, ripping off ears (hmm, I didn't think we were going for permanent damage here?), as "his hands are busy, your hands are free". Well, they can be, but really, no. Your hands, as they pull you around, will be looking for some form of control, or grip, typically on the other guy, and you've completely failed to address such realities, stabilising yourself, getting control back, dropping your weight, and much more. Basically all the important stuff that would let any of the rest of this clip have the slightest chance at working and being usable... especially for non-martial artists, as you say this is aimed at.
You finish by telling us that no technique works all the time, there will be situations that they work for, and situations where they don't... so you need to train many different techniques for all those different situations in order to have some hope of success. Now, Chuck, you're targeting this at non-martial artists. People who have decided that martial art training is not for them. A good reason may be that they feel it's too complicated, you can't learn a different thing for every situation, it takes too long, there's too much to remember, and so on. And you've just told each of those people that those reasons they haven't attended a school are going to be present in your video presentations. You may not understand your audience all that well, honestly. I'd also point out that what you say is completely incorrect. You do not, at all, want to be training different things for each situation, just in case, as you will never spend enough time on what you need. And what you need is a core set of skills, some basic principles and tactics, and the ability to apply them in a large variety of situations, not something different for each circumstance.
Now, I said I'd point out an issue with linking rather than embedding... linking takes us to you-tube itself, and there we get to see the descriptions, the comments, and so on. At present, you have two comments, both positive (one who just seems to like your looks, though), and about 150 views. Okay, all good. However, we can also see the description you put up there, and the reason I've been so highly critical of the techniques and what you've been saying there, is that the description starts with "Martial Arts Master, and former bodyguard Chuck Johnson ". Now, frankly Chuck, these are not the techniques of a Master. This level of understanding is not that of a Master. The large numbers of mistakes, ill-conceived ideas, gaps in understanding the basic set-up of techniques and attacks, and so on, while advertising yourself as "Martial Arts Master" can be seen as a serious case of self aggrandizement. That, combined with your posting habit of just putting clips up, but not actually taking part in the discussion, saying why you did certain things, why you didn't do others, answering the criticisms of the techniques themselves, and so on, really does make all this come across as just advertising for you. Which, really, is not cool.
The issues seen in each and every technique you put out here, the lack of looking at what is actually important, the misrepresentation of potential injury and potential legal issues, and so forth are exactly why I recommended you get an advisor/consultant to plan out what you're putting forth. The production is great, you are pretty charismatic (you really need to work on your delivery of comedic lines, timing, and so forth... you're a fair bit wooden when you try to be "straight" delivering the comedy/entertainment bits, you're a hell of a lot better when discussing the martial side of things, natural, easy, quite good, actually), but the material and your understanding of some of the things you're addressing really lets you down. And, probably saddest of all, if you really are reaching non-martial artists, they won't pick any of those issues, and can take what you're saying on face value... which can be a rather dangerous thing for them.
The issues seen in each and every technique you put out here, the lack of looking at what is actually important, the misrepresentation of potential injury and potential legal issues, and so forth are exactly why I recommended you get an advisor/consultant to plan out what you're putting forth. The production is great, you are pretty charismatic (you really need to work on your delivery of comedic lines, timing, and so forth... you're a fair bit wooden when you try to be "straight" delivering the comedy/entertainment bits, you're a hell of a lot better when discussing the martial side of things, natural, easy, quite good, actually), but the material and your understanding of some of the things you're addressing really lets you down. And, probably saddest of all, if you really are reaching non-martial artists, they won't pick any of those issues, and can take what you're saying on face value... which can be a rather dangerous thing for them.
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Perhaps a 'how to fight in an old English pub' would be good, how to avoid kids and dogs even ferrets sometimes. What to do when granny gets mad losing at dominoes and the darts players go on the rampage!How not to bash your head on the low beamed ceiling or how to catch an American visitor when he's passed out after being conned into drinking a yard of ale and eating a bag of pork scratchings or Nobby's Nuts (they're the Aussies fault btw)
We don't do bar fights where we are sadly (no bars) really so can't evaluate any videos with techniques in for bar fighting, sounds fun though!
We don't do bar fights where we are sadly (no bars) really so can't evaluate any videos with techniques in for bar fighting, sounds fun though!
mook jong man
Senior Master
Perhaps a 'how to fight in an old English pub' would be good, how to avoid kids and dogs even ferrets sometimes. What to do when granny gets mad losing at dominoes and the darts players go on the rampage!How not to bash your head on the low beamed ceiling or how to catch an American visitor when he's passed out after being conned into drinking a yard of ale and eating a bag of pork scratchings or Nobby's Nuts (they're the Aussies fault btw)
We don't do bar fights where we are sadly (no bars) really so can't evaluate any videos with techniques in for bar fighting, sounds fun though!
Yep , nibble Nobby's nuts before he nibbles yours.
Perhaps a 'how to fight in an old English pub' would be good, how to avoid kids and dogs even ferrets sometimes. What to do when granny gets mad losing at dominoes and the darts players go on the rampage!How not to bash your head on the low beamed ceiling or how to catch an American visitor when he's passed out after being conned into drinking a yard of ale and eating a bag of pork scratchings or Nobby's Nuts (they're the Aussies fault btw)
We don't do bar fights where we are sadly (no bars) really so can't evaluate any videos with techniques in for bar fighting, sounds fun though!
OK, now that's just wrong. I saw Harry Potter. I am NOT eating anything called "Nobbys Nuts".
chinto
Senior Master
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2007
- Messages
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hmmm I would not say a choke makes you in a better place legally. In a lot of Jurisdictions initiating a choke or strangle is considered DEADLY FORCE! Also some states have specific laws against choking some one. I know my state does. ( It is also considered it Deadly Force!) So not only do you have his friends now jumping in, they legally can use Deadly Force, IE shoot you, knife you ... and it is legal!! Please consider looking into the laws of your state. I am NOT an attorney, so this is NOT legal advise! just Common sense! I very much agree stay out of bars and places you will end up in that kind of thing easily.
