Shotokan for self defence.

[Hanzou]

OK, so that was an article on the website, which is nice to see. But I couldn't see anything on curriculum on the website and/or if SD and these concepts are trained in at the actual club. So question the value of that to support your claim. Again, do you focus on this at your club, or have you actually witnessed this at other mma clubs? Next please.

Did you see the second link? My point is yes there are MMA gyms out there that practice situational awareness.

As to my school, we're Gjj, and we do have a self defense class, and a class for women where situational awareness is taught.

 

[Hanzou]

I'd be willing to bet that the bulk of the situational awareness training comes from the Krav Maga instructors:

Urban Warriors Academy MMA Gym London Krav Maga London Our Coaches Mixed Martial Arts London

Check the second link. All Bjj buddy. However, it shouldn't be surprising that a Mixed Martial Arts gym would teach a mixture of martial arts.

Nor have we claimed that Karateka are astounding grapplers. Basic level of grappling will never fly in a competitive environment.

You're the only one claiming Karate Grappling to be on the same level as Judo or BJJ. Wrestling isnt as refined or complex as Judo or BJJ, should it not be discussed for SD either?

What are we considering basic level here? White belt level Judo or Bjj? High school Freshman level Wrestling? Exactly how basic are we talking here? Anything lower than that is "learning from book" level grappling.

 

[Drose427]

Did you see the second link? My point is yes there are MMA gyms out there that practice situational awareness.

As to my school, we're Gjj, and we do have a self defense class, and a class for women where situational awareness is taught.

but its not the majority. If you say TMA is bad for RBSD because good schools are a minority, how can you praise MMA for SD when SD focused MMA schools are also a minority?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If your claim is that there is a competent level of grappling and ground fighting in karate, then karate should be competitive with the other grappling styles out there. If it isn't, then that means that it isn't widely taught, or refined on any reasonable level, and really shouldn't be brought up when we discuss the importance of grappling/ground fighting in a SD situation.

Not necessarily. From what I've seen, the grappling in most karate is aimed at dealing with an untrained civilian assailant and is intended to work in conjunction with the striking aspects of karate. No one is claiming that it is sufficient for out-grappling a grappling specialist.

Think of it as comparable to the classic Gracie self-defense curriculum covering defenses against standing headlocks, throat grabs, haymaker punches, etc. That curriculum is valid for its intended purpose, but someone who only trained in those techniques would still get destroyed in the white belt division of a grappling tournament.

(BTW - I've seen plenty of evidence for grappling in karate, but not so much for actual newaza. That, I'm skeptical of.)

 

[Hanzou]

Not necessarily. From what I've seen, the grappling in most karate is aimed at dealing with an untrained civilian assailant and is intended to work in conjunction with the striking aspects of karate. No one is claiming that it is sufficient for out-grappling a grappling specialist.

Think of it as comparable to the classic Gracie self-defense curriculum covering defenses against standing headlocks, throat grabs, haymaker punches, etc. That curriculum is valid for its intended purpose, but someone who only trained in those techniques would still get destroyed in the white belt division of a grappling tournament.

(BTW - I've seen plenty of evidence for grappling in karate, but not so much for actual newaza. That, I'm skeptical of.)

Yeah, I'm talking about ground fighting. It started from this quote from Paul D;

There is groundwork in kata, if you understand kata correctly. Most instructors don't however, hence most don't teach the throws, joints locks, takedowns, chokes, groundwork etc etc within kata.

I'm well aware of the hip throws, and foot sweeps in karate. I'm talking about the above where the claim is that there's ground work/newaza in kata. Considering that every kata I learned was on my feet, I highly doubt this claim.

 

[Hanzou]

but its not the majority. If you say TMA is bad for RBSD because good schools are a minority, how can you praise MMA for SD when SD focused MMA schools are also a minority?

Really? Just about every MMA gym or Bjj school I've come across offers a self defense program of some kind. Even gyms based around promoting fighters. Self defense and women's protection classes is big business.

 

[Drose427]

Really? Just about every MMA gym or Bjj school I've come across offers a self defense program of some kind. Even gyms based around promoting fighters. Self defense and women's protection classes is big business.

Usually its nothing more than the usual MMA curriculum that theyre saying "apply for SD." Thats a far cry from De-escalation, awareness, Fighting out of common SD situations, learning how to defend yourself from a seated position. Learning disarms, how to go about multiple opponents, or RBSD in general, proper mindset, etc.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Check the second link.

Actually I didn't Check it, I was just referring to the first link. You were asked if MMA teaches situational awareness and the information in your first link suggested that the situational awareness came, not from the MMA instructors, but from the Krav Maga instructors, which is an art I believe you have also had reservations about.

 

[Hanzou]

Usually its nothing more than the usual MMA curriculum that theyre saying "apply for SD." Thats a far cry from De-escalation, awareness, Fighting out of common SD situations, learning how to defend yourself from a seated position. Learning disarms, how to go about multiple opponents, or RBSD in general, proper mindset, etc.

Shotokan and other Karate styles are RSBD systems now?

That's quite a goal post move....

 

[Zero]

Did you see the second link? My point is yes there are MMA gyms out there that practice situational awareness.

As to my school, we're Gjj, and we do have a self defense class, and a class for women where situational awareness is taught.

Jeepers(!!) Hanzou, give yourself a fighting chance! I checked the second link, I could not find any mention of situational awareness etc and all which is required so you can avoid a confrontation in the first place. What I did find was absolutely from the perspective of a sport fighting guy coming at SD. Please read following from the bjj website:

Quote: "Reality based combative & Self Defense class teaches you how to engage a wide variety of armed opponents and survive life threatening situations. This class will give the average man or woman, soldier, law enforcement officer, or security guard the tools needed to disarm and combat an assailant." Unquote.

There is nothing in here regarding avoiding becoming a victim in the first place, it is all from the mind set of "you're in the violent situation, now take it to 'em!! Kiya!" Use these great skills to survive a life threatening encounter!!

There is nothing mentioned on how to avoid this in the first place and just as importantly, nothing on how to diffuse the situation if you find yourself facing a violent altercation.

Sorry, but again, does your mma school train in this, have you witnessed it in other mma schools? ...not sure what to do with your mention that you have a self defense class for women that focuses on situational awareness. Clearly for you men with your sport fighting skills, who needs to bother about avoiding a fight in the first place?!! Take it to 'em, kiya!! hehe! Ok, on that one I am having a laugh (but I'm also crying at the same time!)

 

[Drose427]

Shotokan and other Karate styles are RSBD systems now?

That's quite a goal post move....

Your joking just proves my point..

 

[Hanzou]

Actually I didn't Check it, I was just referring to the first link.

Well go ahead and click it. That way you won't have any perceived notions of hypocrisy on my part.

 

[Hanzou]

Jeepers(!!) Hanzou, give yourself a fighting chance! I checked the second link, I could not find any mention of situational awareness etc and all which is required so you can avoid a confrontation in the first place. What I did find was absolutely from the perspective of a sport fighting guy coming at SD. Please read following from the bjj website:

Quote: "Reality based combative & Self Defense class teaches you how to engage a wide variety of armed opponents and survive life threatening situations. This class will give the average man or woman, soldier, law enforcement officer, or security guard the tools needed to disarm and combat an assailant." Unquote.

There is nothing in here regarding avoiding becoming a victim in the first place, it is all from the mind set of "you're in the violent situation, now take it to 'em!! Kiya!" Use these great skills to survive a life threatening encounter!!


There is nothing mentioned on how to avoid this in the first place and just as importantly, nothing on how to diffuse the situation if you find yourself facing a violent altercation.

Sorry, but again, does your mma school train in this, have you witnessed it in other mma schools? ...not sure what to do with your mention that you have a self defense class for women that focuses on situational awareness. Clearly for you men with your sport fighting skills, who needs to bother about avoiding a fight in the first place?!! Take it to 'em, kiya!! hehe! Ok, on that one I am having a laugh (but I'm also crying at the same time!)

I'm curious as to why that's considered "sport fighting guy" language for self defense when this TKD school which is non-competitive says the exact same thing;

Self Defence

The definition of Rhee Tae Kwon Do involves dynamic techniques of unarmed combat for self-defensive purposes, combining the skilled application of powerful punches, kicks, blocks, dodges and interceptions.

The Rhee Taekwondo practitioner uses well trained hands, arms and feet to effect the rapid immobilisation of any attacker.

Rhee Tae Kwon Do - Perth Western Australia

I do believe earlier on that page they label themselves as a "superior" form of self defense because they're not a sport. I'm also pretty sure this school doesn't practice sparring either.

So just curious; Is it only outlandish when sport MA or MMA makes such self-defense claims?

 

[Drose427]

I'm curious as to why that's considered "sport fighting guy" language for self defense when this TKD school which is non-competitive says the exact same thing;



Rhee Tae Kwon Do - Perth Western Australia

I do believe earlier on that page they label themselves as a "superior" form of self defense because they're not a sport. I'm also pretty sure this school doesn't practice sparring either.

So just curious; Is it only outlandish when sport MA or MMA makes such self-defense claims?

Of course not, but that was never the argument.

 

[Hanzou]

Of course not, but that was never the argument.

What is the argument? That MMA and other sport styles don't offer self defense? We both know that's nonsense.

The other argument is that there's groundfighting hidden within Karate kata. We both know that's nonsense as well.

 

[Drose427]

What is the argument? That MMA and other sport styles don't offer self defense? We both know that's nonsense.

The other argument is that there's groundfighting hidden within Karate kata. We both know that's nonsense as well.

Jeepers(!!) Hanzou, give yourself a fighting chance! I checked the second link, I could not find any mention of situational awareness etc and all which is required so you can avoid a confrontation in the first place. What I did find was absolutely from the perspective of a sport fighting guy coming at SD. Please read following from the bjj website:

Quote: "Reality based combative & Self Defense class teaches you how to engage a wide variety of armed opponents and survive life threatening situations. This class will give the average man or woman, soldier, law enforcement officer, or security guard the tools needed to disarm and combat an assailant." Unquote.

There is nothing in here regarding avoiding becoming a victim in the first place, it is all from the mind set of "you're in the violent situation, now take it to 'em!! Kiya!" Use these great skills to survive a life threatening encounter!!

There is nothing mentioned on how to avoid this in the first place and just as importantly, nothing on how to diffuse the situation if you find yourself facing a violent altercation.

Sorry, but again, does your mma school train in this, have you witnessed it in other mma schools? ...not sure what to do with your mention that you have a self defense class for women that focuses on situational awareness. Clearly for you men with your sport fighting skills, who needs to bother about avoiding a fight in the first place?!! Take it to 'em, kiya!! hehe! Ok, on that one I am having a laugh (but I'm also crying at the same time!)

Hanzou, You've showed nothing to prove that your standard MMA gyms teach any SD beyond the normal MMA curriculum, aside from your Krav Maga instructor. I'll ask again, if MMA gyms teaching SD, awareness, and de-escalation are a minority, how is that any different or better to you than your opinion that quality TMA schools are a minority?

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, You've showed nothing to prove that your standard MMA gyms teach any SD beyond the normal MMA curriculum, aside from your Krav Maga instructor. I'll ask again, if MMA gyms teaching SD, awareness, and de-escalation are a minority, how is that any different or better to you than your opinion that quality TMA schools are a minority?

Wait... where did I say that quality TMA schools are a minority?

 

[Drose427]

Wait... where did I say that quality TMA schools are a minority?

Seriously? You should read your own posts...you sure talk down on TMA's a lot for someone who thinks highly of them

 

[Hanzou]

Seriously? You should read your own posts...you sure talk down on TMA's a lot for someone who thinks highly of them

I do believe that the only thing I said was that Karate lacked ground fighting. Thus if a situation forced you to fight from that range (like that stabbing in the subway), karate would offer no answer for you.

MMA, Judo, Bjj, and a few other styles would.

 

[ShotoNoob]

For self defence.

Can you talk me through the non exaggerated poses used here?

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I love it when these kata videos are posted. The kata haters find everything they see as wrong; the kata fanatics uoh & goo over the very fine demonstration this sensei is putting on. Great stirring the pot piece. The sensei thinks kata is serious business. Who is he and did anybody think of contacting him?
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On the lighter side, there's reverse punch in there. Machida likes those in MMA. He's knocked several MMA opponent's around with that. Just trying to pick out a practicality among all the other objectives sought in the kata.