Shotokan for self defence.

[drop bear]

Hanzou, You've showed nothing to prove that your standard MMA gyms teach any SD beyond the normal MMA curriculum, aside from your Krav Maga instructor. I'll ask again, if MMA gyms teaching SD, awareness, and de-escalation are a minority, how is that any different or better to you than your opinion that quality TMA schools are a minority?

If you are getting de-escalation and situational awareness from a. Martial arts school. You are almost always going to the wrong place.

sorry. Lets put it this way. Martial arts qualification is not a reference for good de-escalation.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I

Rhee Tae Kwon Do - Perth Western Australia

I do believe earlier on that page they label themselves as a "superior" form of self defense because they're not a sport.

Why is it so hard to believe that if you specialize in self defense rather than adding it as an afterthought you might be better at it. You do know that the purpose of a website is to advertise your art right?

II'm also pretty sure this school doesn't practice sparring either.

And once again you jump to erroneous conclusions based on a lack of knowledge and preconceived notions:

From the region of the website: (where i started out):

From a different region:

 

[K-man]

Yeah, I'm talking about ground fighting. It started from this quote from Paul D;



I'm well aware of the hip throws, and foot sweeps in karate. I'm talking about the above where the claim is that there's ground work/newaza in kata. Considering that every kata I learned was on my feet, I highly doubt this claim.

There are no karate kata for fighting on the ground that I have heard of. You might be able to use some of the combinations on the ground but that's about it, very limited. However there is still a reasonable amount of ground work in general Goju training.

 

[S33KR]

Hello, I'm new here. I was skimming through the conversation. Primarily the first and current pages.

I have no experience with Shotokan at all. But my instructor told me a story about a Shotokan guy who visited the school he was studying at at the time. (This was probably 30 or more years ago.) He said the guy participated in a friendly sparring match with the other students and absolutely dominated everyone.

He said the guy was just so fast that he was all over you before you had time to process it. He said that even though the guy was using the same techniques over and over (front kick, straight and reverse punch) he was so fast at getting off the line and so precise with his attacks, that it didn't matter.

So my point I guess, is judging from this story (and the credibility of my instructor) that yeah, Shotokan definitely has self defense applications.

I feel like the primary weapon that any martial art employs is intent. If you train Shotokan or any other martial with the intention of getting out of the situation as quickly as possible through what ever means necessary, it will probably serve you well in a self defense scenario. But its unfair to say that any martial art will be effective in 100% of the situations. Maybe the guys has a knife, or gun. Or a friend with a gun, or a car and he's going to run you over. You never know.

And on another note, when does self defense stop being self defense and it starts being fighting or a life/death sparring match. If the guy has had some experience formally or from his buddies on the street and he squares up with you it will change the mechanics of self defense techniques. I say this to validate MMA's usefulness.

Just my two cents though.

 

[drop bear]

Why is it so hard to believe that if you specialize in self defense rather than adding it as an afterthought you might be better at it. You do know that the purpose of a website is to advertise your art right?

because self defence is not a definable thing with any sort of proven pathway to reach it.

It would be like specifically training for happiness.

 

[Paul_D]

because self defence is not a definable thing with any sort of proven pathway to reach it.

It would be like specifically training for happiness.

I don't think that's true at all. Goeff Thompsons Dead or Alive: The Ultimate Self Protection Handbook is full of the SD skills. My wife thinks Martial Arts is a "load of bollocks" but she has used the skills in it that book to kill situations dead at the "interview" stage. I myself have used them on a number of occasions to stop incidents progressing to the "fight" stage.

You can train The Fence, and pre-emptive striking form The Fence, Threat & Awareness Evaluation (Coopers colour codes), Verbal De-Escalation, you can run training drills where you simulate arguments in bars and then afterwards discuss what happened that went well and what happened that went badly (i.e. you hit pre-emptively, but could you have walked away? or yo walked away and he jumped you should yo have hit pre-emptively etc etc) You can run drill where you go to a cash machine and a mugger comes p to you with a knife, and again dissect and analysis afterwards yo can practice keeping a loved one safe/getting them to safety, you can teach your students the relevant laws in their area and test them on them so they know in a criss what then can act and what they can /cant do (so that they are not worried about waiting until it's too late before they attack for fear of legal troubles). You can familiarise your students with the rituals of violence so that they know what to look out for, you can run drill with 2 or 3 or more attackers so you can practice positioning yourself so you don't get surrounded, practising taking out the first one or two guys and then verbally intimidating the third/rest into leaving, you can teach the skills to get back up off the ground as quickly as possible if you end up there (rather than staying there looking for locks etc). The Suzy Lamplaugh Trust has some fabulous information on keeping yourself safe at home, at work, travelling on trains/buses, out in public, on nights out, etc

The list goes on and on, but I'm boring myself now too Point is, there are plenty of practical definable SD skills which can be practised and can produce results.

 

[Zero]

I'm curious as to why that's considered "sport fighting guy" language for self defense when this TKD school which is non-competitive says the exact same thing;



Rhee Tae Kwon Do - Perth Western Australia

I do believe earlier on that page they label themselves as a "superior" form of self defense because they're not a sport. I'm also pretty sure this school doesn't practice sparring either.

So just curious; Is it only outlandish when sport MA or MMA makes such self-defense claims?

OK, Hanzou, clearly you just do not want to answer a very specific question put to you - do those schools focus on the "soft skills" of SD, being situational awareness, de-escalation, etc? You continually evade this. In fact, to be clear, the specific question put to you and which you have continued to evade was not to provide various links to websites but to advise me (I) whether your school trains in such or (II) if you had personally seen/experienced other mma schools doing so?

I do not understand why you continue to dance around this? But that's your free choice to do so.

None of the website links you have provided have shown evidence of focusing on the important pre-cursor "soft side" of SD and even if they did, that would not amount to much as I am after what you have experienced or seen first hand. What you experience in a school and what you are offered is not always reflective of the website blog...

Dros and myself keep asking you a very simply and precise question which you have yet to even respond to or answer.

 

[Zero]

because self defence is not a definable thing with any sort of proven pathway to reach it.

It would be like specifically training for happiness.

Sorry Drop bear, I just can't agree with that. For the reasons stated by Paul-D and more so.

SD is something you can absolutely train, drill and prepare for, both on the tool kits of physical responses, the mental state and approach when faced with and in a situation and the mental state in avoiding or minimising your chances of experiencing an SD situation in the first place. There are several pathways, including taking appropriate SD classes or specific and appropriate training in addition to your regular MA curriculum, attending seminars on the mental aspects and also there is much literature to digest on this subject as well. much of SD is simply adapting your and your loved ones' approach to life and behaviour when out and about and (to a lesser (but also important) degree) when in the home.

As a small example, my old sensei who is a LEO told me that more fatalities in home burglaries and break-ins are inflicted by improvised weapons picked up in the house than by guns etc carried by the perps, ie more people are killed in their home by their own kitchen knife left in the drying rack than by a weapon taken to the scene. My sensei advised me to always put away all knives, sharp bladed items, etc in the kitchen and about the house every night before going to bed and when having visitors and trades people in the house. I passed this on to the girl who is now my wife. I do not keep my sharp blades, cross bows, katana etc on display these days. This is one simple example.

When you say "proven" pathways, that is a somewhat harder proposition and threshold. But I think it is clear that people that have drilled and kept up appropriate training, then they have successfully come through a violent situation. There are examples, listed in books such as The Gift of Fear where people have followed the training and/or ingested the written guidance, and avoided what would have been a very hairy situation. I think there is enough empirical evidence and examples that show there are various "proven" pathways so that SD can be approach specifically rather than only in an ad hoc, haphazard manner which you may be suggesting.

(I say "appropriate" as while, like MA schools in general, there are some very good SD teachers and syllabuses, there are also some very laughable and down-right dangerous (to the students, that is) SD teachers and classes.

 

[drop bear]

I don't think that's true at all. Goeff Thompsons Dead or Alive: The Ultimate Self Protection Handbook is full of the SD skills. My wife thinks Martial Arts is a "load of bollocks" but she has used the skills in it that book to kill situations dead at the "interview" stage. I myself have used them on a number of occasions to stop incidents progressing to the "fight" stage.

You can train The Fence, and pre-emptive striking form The Fence, Threat & Awareness Evaluation (Coopers colour codes), Verbal De-Escalation, you can run training drills where you simulate arguments in bars and then afterwards discuss what happened that went well and what happened that went badly (i.e. you hit pre-emptively, but could you have walked away? or yo walked away and he jumped you should yo have hit pre-emptively etc etc) You can run drill where you go to a cash machine and a mugger comes p to you with a knife, and again dissect and analysis afterwards yo can practice keeping a loved one safe/getting them to safety, you can teach your students the relevant laws in their area and test them on them so they know in a criss what then can act and what they can /cant do (so that they are not worried about waiting until it's too late before they attack for fear of legal troubles). You can familiarise your students with the rituals of violence so that they know what to look out for, you can run drill with 2 or 3 or more attackers so you can practice positioning yourself so you don't get surrounded, practising taking out the first one or two guys and then verbally intimidating the third/rest into leaving, you can teach the skills to get back up off the ground as quickly as possible if you end up there (rather than staying there looking for locks etc). The Suzy Lamplaugh Trust has some fabulous information on keeping yourself safe at home, at work, travelling on trains/buses, out in public, on nights out, etc

The list goes on and on, but I'm boring myself now too Point is, there are plenty of practical definable SD skills which can be practised and can produce results.

none of that is self defence. Self defence is what I define it to be.

But seriously there is a difference on training a specific skill set. Like not to be surrounded. And this vague idea of training self defence.

As far as anecdotes i punched a guy once in self defence to great success and i had a friend who punched a guy as well. But what have I proven In regards to training methods and their relation to self defence?

If saying i did this successfully or that is really good. Then all training has been shown to be able to be practiced and produce results.

 

[drop bear]

Sorry Drop bear, I just can't agree with that. For the reasons stated by Paul-D and more so.

SD is something you can absolutely train, drill and prepare for, both on the tool kits of physical responses, the mental state and approach when faced with and in a situation and the mental state in avoiding or minimising your chances of experiencing an SD situation in the first place. There are several pathways, including taking appropriate SD classes or specific and appropriate training in addition to your regular MA curriculum, attending seminars on the mental aspects and also there is much literature to digest on this subject as well. much of SD is simply adapting your and your loved ones' approach to life and behaviour when out and about and (to a lesser (but also important) degree) when in the home.

As a small example, my old sensei who is a LEO told me that more fatalities in home burglaries and break-ins are inflicted by improvised weapons picked up in the house than by guns etc carried by the perps, ie more people are killed in their home by their own kitchen knife left in the drying rack than by a weapon taken to the scene. My sensei advised me to always put away all knives, sharp bladed items, etc in the kitchen and about the house every night before going to bed and when having visitors and trades people in the house. I passed this on to the girl who is now my wife. I do not keep my sharp blades, cross bows, katana etc on display these days. This is one simple example.

When you say "proven" pathways, that is a somewhat harder proposition and threshold. But I think it is clear that people that have drilled and kept up appropriate training, then they have successfully come through a violent situation. There are examples, listed in books such as The Gift of Fear where people have followed the training and/or ingested the written guidance, and avoided what would have been a very hairy situation. I think there is enough empirical evidence and examples that show there are various "proven" pathways so that SD can be approach specifically rather than only in an ad hoc, haphazard manner which you may be suggesting.

(I say "appropriate" as while, like MA schools in general, there are some very good SD teachers and syllabuses, there are also some very laughable and down-right dangerous (to the students, that is) SD teachers and classes.

That guy from the mma bashing thread. Developed his system through self defence success.

 

[Zero]

If you are getting de-escalation and situational awareness from a. Martial arts school. You are almost always going to the wrong place.

sorry. Lets put it this way. Martial arts qualification is not a reference for good de-escalation.

Maybe on the whole I would say you are correct, but again, this depends totally on who you are training with and who your sensei is and what their background and interests are. I would say real world experience which has lead to additional concerted thought and application of these principles makes one hell of a good reference for de-escalation and situational awareness skills.

I have obtained my best and most real world applicable SD training (and which I have put into practice in real situations), both physical and mental, from my goju ryu club. From the head fight coach/sensei that is also a LEO and from the senior jujitsu guy that also trains at our club and that just happens to run his own successful SD school (I say "successful" in that he seems to get a decent amount of students, mainly from security guard outfits, and makes a living out of this). I must say in all honesty though that the teachings of most use and which I have found most "accessible" have come from the sensei who is a LEO who puts a lot of thought into this kind of thing and has used this for years on the beat and in defusing potentially very bad situations between inmates and in the holding pens, rather than the jujitsu guy with the SD school....

 

[drop bear]

Maybe on the whole I would say you are correct, but again, this depends totally on who you are training with and who your sensei is and what their background and interests are. I would say real world experience which has lead to additional concerted thought and application of these principles makes one hell of a good reference for de-escalation and situational awareness skills.

I have obtained my best and most real world applicable SD training (and which I have put into practice in real situations), both physical and mental, from my goju ryu club. From the head fight coach/sensei that is also a LEO and from the senior jujitsu guy that also trains at our club and that just happens to run his own successful SD school. I must say in all honesty though that the teachings of most use have come from the sensei who is a LEO who puts a lot of thought into this kind of thing and has used this for years on the beat and in defusing potentially very bad situations between inmates and in the holding pens, rather than the jujitsu guy with the SD school....

Ok this guy has same proof that validates his system. Now I am not dying your system doesn't work. But objectively I cant see how your argument is better than his as to why.

 

[drop bear]

Ok. I have thought up a simple way of explaining my issue here.

If I train specifically to run I will be faster than someone who trains football.

To support this I have beaten people in running races.

 

[K-man]

You're,training in karate now? I thought you were aikido and Krav Maga.

As we have established earlier, you don't read my posts and you haven't bothered checking my profile. Goju is my primary art. I started with Japanese Goju and if I hadn't discovered Okinawan Goju I would probably believe karate was much like Hanzou describes. I started my Goju school about 9 or 10 years ago so you might say I have accumulated a small understanding of karate over the past 30 plus years.

 

[Hanzou]

Why is it so hard to believe that if you specialize in self defense rather than adding it as an afterthought you might be better at it. You do know that the purpose of a website is to advertise your art right?

That TKD school specializes in self-defense? According to their website they specialize in several things, not just self defense.

And once again you jump to erroneous conclusions based on a lack of knowledge and preconceived notions:

I never said I was certain about that aspect. Just FYI.

 

[Hanzou]

There are no karate kata for fighting on the ground that I have heard of. You might be able to use some of the combinations on the ground but that's about it, very limited. However there is still a reasonable amount of ground work in general Goju training.

Well thank you for clearing that up. I figured there was no ground fighting hidden in the kata of karate.

As for Goju, could you provide some examples of ground work within the system? I'm very interested in seeing some examples of karate ground fighting.

 

[Hanzou]

OK, Hanzou, clearly you just do not want to answer a very specific question put to you - do those schools focus on the "soft skills" of SD, being situational awareness, de-escalation, etc? You continually evade this. In fact, to be clear, the specific question put to you and which you have continued to evade was not to provide various links to websites but to advise me (I) whether your school trains in such or (II) if you had personally seen/experienced other mma schools doing so?

I do not understand why you continue to dance around this? But that's your free choice to do so.

None of the website links you have provided have shown evidence of focusing on the important pre-cursor "soft side" of SD and even if they did, that would not amount to much as I am after what you have experienced or seen first hand. What you experience in a school and what you are offered is not always reflective of the website blog...

Dros and myself keep asking you a very simply and precise question which you have yet to even respond to or answer.

The original question was if those MMA schools offer situational awareness. That was after you asked if MMA or Bjj training could teach you how to avoid a fight altogether. Now you're asking me if MMA/Bjj offers the soft side of SD, which is quite different than what you asked before.

This line of questioning is fairly irrelevant. If a MA school/gym says they offer self defense, that should really be the end of the discussion. Both of those examples I offered state that they do teach self defense. My Gjj school offers self defense courses, and thanks to the combatives wave that swept through the Gracie systems recently, all Gjj schools now offer self defense training.

Now, if you feel that those self defense offerings are sub par, that's your opinion. There's been plenty of examples where people who practice sport MA have done perfectly fine in self defense situations. That really wasn't the point that started all of this. The point was that my current training gives me an answer if the fight hits the ground as it did in that subway stabbing situation. My former Shotokan training (and frankly many traditional MAs) did not.

 

[K-man]

Well thank you for clearing that up. I figured there was no ground fighting hidden in the kata of karate.

As for Goju, could you provide some examples of ground work within the system? I'm very interested in seeing some examples of karate ground fighting.

Not really and I'm certainly not going looking all over Youtube. Basically for me it is the same as I teach in Krav so pretty much anything you see in Krav ground work will cover it. There is nothing about working to achieve submission. Years ago we we training more like you see in MMA today, because we were in a competition based system. Now our ground work is more designed to protect you if you are on the ground and how to escape the grappler if you are taken to the ground.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

because self defence is not a definable thing

Sure it is. The problem is that different people are using different definitions without spelling them out, which confuses the discussion. We'd probably have more light and less heat in these discussions if everybody spelled out exactly which definition they were using at the current moment.

...with any sort of proven pathway to reach it.

Eh, depends on how stringent you're going to be about the meaning of "proven." There's no practical or ethical way to do rigorous scientific studies on the matter. However, once we've agreed on which definition of self-defense we are discussing, we can assemble reasonable evidence for or against certain approaches to certain aspects of that goal.

 

[Hanzou]

Not really and I'm certainly not going looking all over Youtube. Basically for me it is the same as I teach in Krav so pretty much anything you see in Krav ground work will cover it. There is nothing about working to achieve submission. Years ago we we training more like you see in MMA today, because we were in a competition based system. Now our ground work is more designed to protect you if you are on the ground and how to escape the grappler if you are taken to the ground.

Not working to achieve a submission? Are you guys not learning chokes or locks in order to disable a threat? Then what are you working to achieve?