Shotokan for self defence.

[Danny T]

Here's a recent stabbing attack in a subway;

In that situation, my MMA/Bjj training would be far more beneficial and effective than my TMA/Karate training. Hence why people question the latter's effectiveness in a self defense situation.

This is the reason you get so much flak Hanzou.
You say, people question the effectiveness of Karate training in a self defense situation because your training was lacking.
The video shows two in a grappling situation. Yes at this point a good ground fighting skill would be a good skill to have. What happen prior to getting to this point? What skill set would have been better? How about an ability to defuse the situation? What was the argument about? What happen for the situation to get to the point of the two subjects struggling on the ground? Were there other skills that could have been utilized prior to it becoming a struggle on the ground? Could the skill sets developed from a karate training background have been effective prior to flopping on the ground?

 

[Hanzou]

This is the reason you get so much flak Hanzou.

Flak for what? Pointing out that Karate is lacking when it comes to ground fighting, and that lack can be detrimental or deadly in a self defense situation?

You say, people question the effectiveness of Karate training in a self defense situation because your training was lacking.
The video shows two in a grappling situation. Yes at this point a good ground fighting skill would be a good skill to have. What happen prior to getting to this point? What skill set would have been better? How about an ability to defuse the situation? What was the argument about? What happen for the situation to get to the point of the two subjects struggling on the ground? Were there other skills that could have been utilized prior to it becoming a struggle on the ground? Could the skill sets developed from a karate training background have been effective prior to flopping on the ground?

Perhaps, but the difference is that MMA has an answer for all the steps in that scenario. Karate's answer stops as soon as the fight hits the pavement.

 

[Paul_D]

What is a 'self protein'?

Self protection.

Bloody spell checker! Why does modern technology make it feel like a battle of wills trying to get something to type what you want to say, rather than what it thinks you might mean ;-)

 

[Steve]

Ok so we have one opinion for and one opinion against. And my opinion is i haven't seen any evidence that Shotokan or their training methods work in self defence.

so i suppose both opinions are equally valid at this point.

who has actually trained in shotokan? Maybe that's an okay place to start.


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[Hanzou]

who has actually trained in shotokan? Maybe that's an okay place to start.


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I did, for the better part of a decade.

Of course many here don't like my opinion about it.

 

[K-man]

Flak for what? Pointing out that Karate is lacking when it comes to ground fighting, and that lack can be detrimental or deadly in a self defense situation?

Perhaps, but the difference is that MMA has an answer for all the steps in that scenario. Karate's answer stops as soon as the fight hits the pavement.

What rubbish! Our training tonight was almost entirely on the ground although primarily focused on getting up from the ground. Where you get this notion that karate is purely a stand up martial art just shows how much your karate training was lacking, not that karate is lacking.

 

[Steve]

What rubbish! Our training tonight was almost entirely on the ground although primarily focused on getting up from the ground. Where you get this notion that karate is purely a stand up martial art just shows how much your karate training was lacking, not that karate is lacking.

You're,training in karate now? I thought you were aikido and Krav Maga.

 

[Hanzou]

What rubbish! Our training tonight was almost entirely on the ground although primarily focused on getting up from the ground. Where you get this notion that karate is purely a stand up martial art just shows how much your karate training was lacking, not that karate is lacking.

Don't you actively cross-train with Bjj, Aikido, and Krav Maga stylists?

In that case you'd be quite correct. My sensei didn't train with Bjj, Aikido, and Krav Maga people. He thought Shotokan had all the answers for everything.

 

[Paul_D]

Karate's answer stops as soon as the fight hits the pavement.

There is groundwork in kata, if you understand kata correctly. Most instructors don't however, hence most don't teach the throws, joints locks, takedowns, chokes, groundwork etc etc within kata.

The have a strictly "everything is a block, kick or punch" approach to kata bunkai. But that is the fault of your instructors, not karate.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Flak for what?

For being too simplistic in your thinking (you looked and all you saw was two people rolling around on the ground, whilst Danny T was able to see the bigger picture) and jumping to conclusions without ample justification.

Pointing out that Karate is lacking when it comes to ground fighting, and that lack can be detrimental or deadly in a self defense situation?

If Karate is lacking in groundwork BJJ is lacking in standup, which can be detrimental or deadly in a self defense situation, erroneous statements can go both ways.

Perhaps, but the difference is that MMA has an answer for all the steps in that scenario. Karate's answer stops as soon as the fight hits the pavement.

Many TMA's have answers to all of those steps. Unless it is taught with a self defence mindset MMA's answer doesn't even begin until the fighting stage.

 

[Mephisto]

There is groundwork in kata, if you understand kata correctly. Most instructors don't however, hence most don't teach the throws, joints locks, takedowns, chokes, groundwork etc etc within kata.

The have a strictly "everything is a block, kick or punch" approach to kata bunkai. But that is the fault of your instructors, not karate.

I really question the "karate has grappling" argument. Perhaps it has some stand up joint locks, but ground fighting? I'll admit I'm skeptical because I've never seen it. I've seen numerous karate demos, videos clips, and been to a few schools. Never seen any grappling. To me it seems like the claim is a modern attempt to make karate more practical and marketable. Was anyone doing karate grappling in the 1970s and 1980s? It's like in FMA where guys say all FMA trains all ranges, and other arts think they need to add in skill sets to remain relevant rather than sticking with what they're good at and meant for.

For being too simplistic in your thinking (you looked and all you saw was two people rolling around on the ground, whilst Danny T was able to see the bigger picture) and jumping to conclusions without ample justification.



If Karate is lacking in groundwork BJJ is lacking in standup, which can be detrimental or deadly in a self defense situation, erroneous statements can go both ways.



Many TMA's have answers to all of those steps. Unless it is taught with a self defence mindset MMA's answer doesn't even begin until the fighting stage.

The fight in the video involved ground grappling so it's a fair assessment for him to say bjj would have helped. It's also fair to say karate may have helped prior to the ground fight, it's also fair to say if the guy had a gun or 5 friends he would be better off too.
bjj has a fair bit of standup, more so than karate has groundwork. Of course bjj stand up is grappling, with some self defense combatives thrown into the gjj curriculum.
As for TMA has answers to all steps preceding the ground fight scenario? I don't think traditional arts taught how to diffuse a fight, these arts come from different times and cultures where our modern approach to situational awReness and diffusion would not necessarily apply. I'd argue that any street smarts training in a TMA is a modern addition and this not traditional. Also many arts can be classified as TMA so you can't really say all or most TMA would prepare you for the events leading up to a fight.

 

[Danny T]

Flak for what? Pointing out that Karate is lacking when it comes to ground fighting, and that lack can be detrimental or deadly in a self defense situation?

No, it is the constant pointing out that your karate is lacking so all karate is lacking.

Perhaps, but the difference is that MMA has an answer for all the steps in that scenario. Karate's answer stops as soon as the fight hits the pavement.

And again here, your point is that ALL karate lacks ground skills. It is about how different individuals and schools actually train.

Also I could very easily do as you often do and make the statement that BJJ styles don't do self defense or any type of de-escalation training even in the face of knowing others who have done so in their training because I have never done any self-defense or de-escalation training in the BJJ training I have received.

 

[Tez3]

I really question the "karate has grappling" argument.

My style of karate has ground fighting, something that doesn't surprise people who know who the founder of Wado Ryu was.

 

[Zero]

I actually do deescalation and awareness. And a lot of what i see in training I have issues with.

This is great. Do you do this as part of our outside your bjj training? Is it with your bjj trainers but outside of the core curriculum or completely separate "SD" training?

Again, while I have found this pre-cursor and situational awareness training more present in the traditional karate styles rather than the muay thai or mma clubs or clubs focusing solely on sport I have trained at and visited, I would acknowledge that this situational SD training is not so much a part of the traditional karate style curriculum I have trained in but more so in the approach taken by the particular sensei's I have trained with. There are plenty of traditional schools that do not focus on precursor/situational/environmental training. However, that said, I think on the whole the reason that this may be found more often in traditional schools is that they have the ability to have a broader scope of focus, rather than sports schools where (i) the primary drive is for practitioners to be the best they can be in that sport and to do well in tournaments and / or (ii) there is simply no interest in the SD element.

 

[Paul_D]

I really question the "karate has grappling" argument. Perhaps it has some stand up joint locks, but ground fighting? I'll admit I'm skeptical because I've never seen it.

Morio Hiagonna tells us the tale of a meeting in the 1930s where Jigoro Kano (founder of Judo) and Chojun Miyagi (founder of Goju-Ryu karate) discussed grappling and groundwork in karate:

“When they spoke later Kano Sensei asked, "Are there ne-waza (ground fighting techniques) in karate?" Miyagi explained that there are, along with nage waza (throwing techniques), shime waza (choking techniques) and gyaku waza (joint locking techniques). He then demonstrated some examples explaining the continual importance of harmonizing and focusing the breath. Kano was surprised to find that karate was much more than just punching and kicking techniques, but that it encompassed the depth of a complete martial art." – The History of Karate, Okinawan Goju-Ryu, Morio Hiagonna

 

[Zero]

Perhaps, but the difference is that MMA has an answer for all the steps in that scenario. Karate's answer stops as soon as the fight hits the pavement.

The thing is, does MMA provide you with an answer for avoiding that situation in the first place?
Seems to be the key question that needs to be answered here.

 

[Mephisto]

I think it's fairly common for Gracie jujitsu to include some combatives and self defense training. Is it common to all bjj? probably not. But I'd say it's common among gjj, so with that in mind is say gjj is a good place to go train bjj with a self defense mindset.

The same goes for karate guys that emphasize realism and grappling. Some exemplary schools may train realistically and bring in a rbsd element, but on the whole I don't think this is the case. I'm sure you can find one school that trains hard or trains realistically within a system. But if 99% of a system does not train realistically is that system worth recommending for self defense for the minority of schools that may be training realistically?

 

[Mephisto]

Morio Hiagonna tells us the tale of a meeting in the 1930s where Jigoro Kano (founder of Judo) and Chojun Miyagi (founder of Goju-Ryu karate) discussed grappling and groundwork in karate:

“When they spoke later Kano Sensei asked, "Are there ne-waza (ground fighting techniques) in karate?" Miyagi explained that there are, along with nage waza (throwing techniques), shime waza (choking techniques) and gyaku waza (joint locking techniques). He then demonstrated some examples explaining the continual importance of harmonizing and focusing the breath. Kano was surprised to find that karate was much more than just punching and kicking techniques, but that it encompassed the depth of a complete martial art." – The History of Karate, Okinawan Goju-Ryu, Morio Hiagonna

That's a good starting point. But was Hiagonna sensei just saying that to sound relevant? If he was able to show some of throwing, joint locking, and choking, was it standing or on the ground? Was it one of few often overlooked techniques in goju? If it's so common, can you link some video? I'm learning here and just asking questions, hopefully I'm coming off as to smarmy

 

[Zero]

As for TMA has answers to all steps preceding the ground fight scenario? I don't think traditional arts taught how to diffuse a fight, these arts come from different times and cultures where our modern approach to situational awReness and diffusion would not necessarily apply. I'd argue that any street smarts training in a TMA is a modern addition and this not traditional. Also many arts can be classified as TMA so you can't really say all or most TMA would prepare you for the events leading up to a fight.

This is interesting...I would acknowledge that the modern approach to SD/situational awareness may well be different and of course suited to the "modern" environment or societal "norms". But why would not traditional arts going back many years, even many centuries, not contain or at least have ancillary training or discussion on diffusion and avoidance? Particularly if one was living in an era where the criminal/punitive sanction for killing another may be lesser or non-existent compared to today and in a society where the open wearing of weapons may have been common place and acceptable.
...In those circumstances I would have thought it just as, if not more, important than now days to be aware of one's environment and how to nicely talk down that big Manchu carrying the guando over his shoulder and hassling you out for your deep fried bean curd in the back alley of Guizhou??

Would love some input from TMA guys on this...

 

[Hanzou]

There is groundwork in kata, if you understand kata correctly.

Could you provide some evidence of this, or is this simply more examples of modern Karatekas making up move sets from pre-existing kata movements?