short comings of Ken/mpo

[JTKenpo]

First off this didn't have to be about Kenpo it could be about any art but since I study Kenpo thats what it is about. Every art has it's short comings or things they don't deal with well or at all.

What do you feel the short comings of Kenpo / Kempo are?

I'll start.

I feel that skk is great out of the box, it has immediate self-defense application. What I find is not there are checks, I never had a skk teacher show me how to check with a hand or leg. I also feel that the principles, theories, and concepts are not laid out or presented for those advanced students. Of course principles, theories and concepts are there regardless of the teacher but you must find them for your self. I equate this to a knock out artist (boxer or mma doesn't matter). He doesn't need to know the physics behind a knock out to perform it but the physics are still there.

I also feel that ak is so analytical that a beginner with no prior ma knowledge would have trouble using the material in a timely fashion. I thiink it is a great graduate course but not for the beginner. I feel that they would get too wrapped up in concept too early.

Your thoughts?

 

[terryl965]

With my art to many young instructors just teaching the sport and trying to make people believe it will help on the street. We just need to get back to the roots of the Art of TKD.

 

[Twin Fist]

I assume you mean the arts descended from Chow?

I dont know that the STYLES per se have weakness in them.

weaknesses in styles comes from the people teaching them.

 

[terryl965]

Twin Fist you are right the weakness comes from those teaching the art, so lets call a spade a spade. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Josh Oakley]

First off this didn't have to be about Kenpo it could be about any art but since I study Kenpo thats what it is about. Every art has it's short comings or things they don't deal with well or at all.

What do you feel the short comings of Kenpo / Kempo are?

I'll start.

I feel that skk is great out of the box, it has immediate self-defense application. What I find is not there are checks, I never had a skk teacher show me how to check with a hand or leg. I also feel that the principles, theories, and concepts are not laid out or presented for those advanced students. Of course principles, theories and concepts are there regardless of the teacher but you must find them for your self. I equate this to a knock out artist (boxer or mma doesn't matter). He doesn't need to know the physics behind a knock out to perform it but the physics are still there.

I also feel that ak is so analytical that a beginner with no prior ma knowledge would have trouble using the material in a timely fashion. I thiink it is a great graduate course but not for the beginner. I feel that they would get too wrapped up in concept too early.

Your thoughts?

Wow. SKK's the art I teach and I get into at least arm checks by yellow belt.

 

[JTKenpo]

I assume you mean the arts descended from Chow?

I dont know that the STYLES per se have weakness in them.

weaknesses in styles comes from the people teaching them.

So you feel that every style teaches the practitioner to deal with all phases and it is the teachers lack of understanding that creates the weakness? Interesting. Kempo / Kenpo gives a healthy dose of knife defenses? Grappling situations? BJJ handles multiple attacks well? TKD can be applied in an elevator?

 

[JTKenpo]

Wow. SKK's the art I teach and I get into at least arm checks by yellow belt.

Now that I have broadened my horizons beyond skk I teach checks, but was never taught them in the system by anyone that didn't have a background in something else.

 

[kidswarrior]

So you feel that every style teaches the practitioner to deal with all phases and it is the teachers lack of understanding that creates the weakness? Interesting. Kempo / Kenpo gives a healthy dose of knife defenses? Grappling situations? BJJ handles multiple attacks well? TKD can be applied in an elevator?

Well we went from Ken/mpo to other arts here, but you raise some interesting points about the arts mentioned, and certainly the general perception of their weaknesses (though I learned a plethora of knife defenses in kempo, I don't know what happens on a broad scale).

But I think these potential weaknesses go back to the teacher. If I find my 'art'--that is, the instruction I've received from a teacher--is lacking, it's up to me to fill in the gaps in a way that fits with the strategic principles of the art. This is why I don't follow the 'pure, sacred art' paradigm much anymore. Seems to me every 'art' changes as soon as it's learned by another individual. It's that individual who ultimately becomes responsible for passing on a system that will work in the ways it claims to do (sport, SD, etc.).

 

[JTKenpo]

But I think these potential weaknesses go back to the teacher. If I find my 'art'--that is, the instruction I've received from a teacher--is lacking, it's up to me to fill in the gaps in a way that fits with the strategic principles of the art. This is why I don't follow the 'pure, sacred art' paradigm much anymore. Seems to me every 'art' changes as soon as it's learned by another individual. It's that individual who ultimately becomes responsible for passing on a system that will work in the ways it claims to do (sport, SD, etc.).

That should be in neon lights, thats exactly what I am talking about. I had hoped this would turn into a discussion about how you overcome those obstacles and make "your" art better adapted to those things that may be lacking from the "pure" art.

I left my ego at the door hoping more will do the same.

 

[marlon]

Well we went from Ken/mpo to other arts here, but you raise some interesting points about the arts mentioned, and certainly the general perception of their weaknesses (though I learned a plethora of knife defenses in kempo, I don't know what happens on a broad scale).

But I think these potential weaknesses go back to the teacher. If I find my 'art'--that is, the instruction I've received from a teacher--is lacking, it's up to me to fill in the gaps in a way that fits with the strategic principles of the art. This is why I don't follow the 'pure, sacred art' paradigm much anymore. Seems to me every 'art' changes as soon as it's learned by another individual. It's that individual who ultimately becomes responsible for passing on a system that will work in the ways it claims to do (sport, SD, etc.).

I appreciate your dedication and effort to go outside the system to fill in the blanks (9and JT's also) I have done the same. We as teachers also do that to help those we teach not have the need. So again, i say the deficiencies come from the teacher for the most part. Other things lacking in Kempo / Skk is clearly written principles and the secrecy from the Villari camp only hurts us...and a consensus on leadership and leadership thart we can respect and turn to. I have all of that with Shihan but skk as a whole lacks these things...and internal training.

REspectfully,
marlon

 

[marlon]

That should be in neon lights, thats exactly what I am talking about. I had hoped this would turn into a discussion about how you overcome those obstacles and make "your" art better adapted to those things that may be lacking from the "pure" art.

I left my ego at the door hoping more will do the same.

i love this idea and a lot of good will come of it. However, without a confirmed leader there will be many many difficulties and differences of direction from more kung fu to more karate, to more like AK to more like Kajukenbo, to more Kimo, to more Chun jr....... that's ok, just so we know what to expect
thanks JT

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[JTKenpo]

I appreciate your dedication and effort to go outside the system to fill in the blanks (9and JT's also) I have done the same. We as teachers also do that to help those we teach not have the need. So again, i say the deficiencies come from the teacher for the most part. Other things lacking in Kempo / Skk is clearly written principles and the secrecy from the Villari camp only hurts us...and a consensus on leadership and leadership thart we can respect and turn to. I have all of that with Shihan but skk as a whole lacks these things...and internal training.

REspectfully,
marlon

...and to overcome some of this I am sure that is why marlon practices tai chi and qi gong (forgive my spelling), to fill in the blanks so to say. As for the written principles thats why the threads here on mt of the skk principles, and others. Open discussion so there is no more secrecy. These are the things that people are doing to overcome. Thanks Marlon.

 

[JTKenpo]

i love this idea and a lot of good will come of it. However, without a confirmed leader there will be many many difficulties and differences of direction from more kung fu to more karate, to more like AK to more like Kajukenbo, to more Kimo, to more Chun jr....... that's ok, just so we know what to expect
thanks JT

Respectfully,
Marlon

I don't know if there should be a confirmed leader. Somedays I like chocolate some rocky road. All these other influences give us different flavors. And all these differences can give us different outlooks on the same attacks or concepts. But the goal at the end of the day is to be full and satisfied, atleast until you digest what you were given and become hungry for more.

 

[Hand Sword]

Hmmm... My answer... THE PRACTITIONERS of the styles (with a few exceptions, as with anything of course) are the shortcomings of the systems.
Politics, patch/dojo/teacher/skill level ( or lack of)/ knowledge/ etc... wars.
RIDICULOUS!!!

 

[KenpoDave]

But I think these potential weaknesses go back to the teacher. If I find my 'art'--that is, the instruction I've received from a teacher--is lacking, it's up to me to fill in the gaps in a way that fits with the strategic principles of the art. This is why I don't follow the 'pure, sacred art' paradigm much anymore. Seems to me every 'art' changes as soon as it's learned by another individual. It's that individual who ultimately becomes responsible for passing on a system that will work in the ways it claims to do (sport, SD, etc.).

Absolutely. In the teacher/student relationship, there are responsibilities on both sides. The teacher must bring everything to the mat, the student must leave nothing there.

That said, the original question was about short comings of kenpo/kempo. What I see all too often is the teacher being too quick to tailor the curriculum to fit the student, rather than molding the student. I have seen and heard of many incidences where a student will say, "I just can't make this work this way," and so the teacher immediately begins to modify. My instructor would say, "Go do it a thousand times and get back to me."

 

[marlon]

Absolutely. In the teacher/student relationship, there are responsibilities on both sides. The teacher must bring everything to the mat, the student must leave nothing there.

That said, the original question was about short comings of kenpo/kempo. What I see all too often is the teacher being too quick to tailor the curriculum to fit the student, rather than molding the student. I have seen and heard of many incidences where a student will say, "I just can't make this work this way," and so the teacher immediately begins to modify. My instructor would say, "Go do it a thousand times and get back to me."

i am always concerned about cloning myself with the students. However, when they could not make it work i went back to the basics of understadning what would make it work and then showed them again. I have not found one SKK technique as tauight to me that i have not been able to teach the students make it work. Then again, this is what lead me outside of the skk training i had recieved to understand it better. I wholly agree modifying a techniques or changing it or tailoring itn order to make it work either means you are not doing it properly or it is ineffective to begin with.

 

[tshadowchaser]

From my time in Kenpo I found that speed was the major point while putting power and directing you attack at a specific point where not emphasized

 

[exile]

I don't know if there should be a confirmed leader. Somedays I like chocolate some rocky road. All these other influences give us different flavors. And all these differences can give us different outlooks on the same attacks or concepts. But the goal at the end of the day is to be full and satisfied, atleast until you digest what you were given and become hungry for more.

I think the absence of a single leader or administrative top-down style dictator is one of the great strengths of arts such as karate and the CMAs. No one possesses enough wisdom to know in advance what will work and what not. The kind of TKD I study, teach and practice is elevator-effective precisely because it focuses on bread-and-butter CQ combat methods that exploit the resources latent in its formal patterns; to see just how much of that there is in TKD, look no further than the books of two of our members, Stuart Anslow and Simon John O'Neill, who are pioneering this kind of analysis in TKD and showing how much realistic fighting effectiveness there is in the art once you get away from the sport aspect. But as Terry keeps telling us, and truly, that sport aspect has come to monopolize people's view of the art over the past two decades, with the result that outsiders and practitioners alike tend to regard it as simply an arena contest with limited or zero SD potential. If we didn't have people like Stuart, Simon, Terry and others who dissent from that stereotype, TKD would very likely become the combat-ineffective activity that so many people mistakenly think it has to be. To my mind, this is a perfect example of why a dominating leadership imposing a unitary picture of the art and a uniform curriculum leads in the end to a loss, rather than a gain.

For a very refreshing view of why karate does not need centralized authority, check out Rob Redmond's little cameo essay 'The totalitarian politics of karate' here. IMO, what he's saying goes for every MA that doesn't want to wind up as an ineffective martial cult.

 

[Twin Fist]

So you feel that every style teaches the practitioner to deal with all phases and it is the teachers lack of understanding that creates the weakness? Interesting. Kempo / Kenpo gives a healthy dose of knife defenses? Grappling situations? BJJ handles multiple attacks well? TKD can be applied in an elevator?

yes


now, before anyone thinks i have started drinking early, lemme state this.

I really do think the essentials for self defense are in every system, people just have to learn to apply them outside the box.

I am a TKD bb, and I can do just fine in an elevator, by taking the HANDS of TKD and using them

Kenpo can be used for knife defense easily, just adapt the punch defenses for knives. the same rules apply. With grappling? easy, beat them to death BEFORE they can get thier hands on you, and POOF, kenpo handled the grappler.

BJJ people can break arms pretty well, just learn how to do it standing up

my point is that the CORE of any style can be used in any situation. Just think outsde the box

 

[KenpoDave]

yes


now, before anyone thinks i have started drinking early, lemme state this.

I really do think the essentials for self defense are in every system, people just have to learn to apply them outside the box.

I am a TKD bb, and I can do just fine in an elevator, by taking the HANDS of TKD and using them

Kenpo can be used for knife defense easily, just adapt the punch defenses for knives. the same rules apply. With grappling? easy, beat them to death BEFORE they can get thier hands on you, and POOF, kenpo handled the grappler.

BJJ people can break arms pretty well, just learn how to do it standing up

my point is that the CORE of any style can be used in any situation. Just think outsde the box

I agree to a point. I think there are some systems that are relatively new spinoffs or combinations that are not yet time-tested or proven, so it would be hard to state that all systems are complete. I also imagine that there have been more than a few systems that have died for that very reason. But I think your general concept is sound.