promotion to BB

[Jdokan]

Interested in opinions...
My son has been studying for 10 years (all kenpo)...
I am requiring for black; combo's 1-20, & 20 of punch, club, etc...each can be a derivitive of the combo...standard stuff for most East Coast BB's...Here's the change...I am keeping each of the kata 1-6 but not the pinions....(3-5)...By this I mean as a requirement for BB....If he wants to learn 3-5...fine...but not required...

What are peoples thoughts??
I say be brutally honest...but after reading recent posts...I do expect frankness....(& I don't even know Frank )

 

[JTKenpo]

Interested in opinions...
My son has been studying for 10 years (all kenpo)...
I am requiring for black; combo's 1-20, & 20 of punch, club, etc...each can be a derivitive of the combo...standard stuff for most East Coast BB's...Here's the change...I am keeping each of the kata 1-6 but not the pinions....(3-5)...By this I mean as a requirement for BB....If he wants to learn 3-5...fine...but not required...

What are peoples thoughts??
I say be brutally honest...but after reading recent posts...I do expect frankness....(& I don't even know Frank )

I still find a lot of relevence in 3-5 pinan and still teach them. Occasionally I think to myself that there is just too much material in the system I teach from white to black but then someone once told me a story of a gentlemen walking into a school and asking how long it took for the average person to get their black belt, without skipping a beat the instructor answered an average person doesn't get their black belt.

my 2 cents

 

[terryl965]

Not a Kenpo guy but why take something out that has been there?

 

[almost a ghost]

Personally, 5 pinan was my favorite of the system, even among the "cool" BB forms. I really enjoy the bunkai of the first set of movements of 5 pinan and overall felt like more of the well rounded of the forms I did, at least for my mindset. Even though I don't study SKK anymore I still go over it once in a blue moon for nostaglia, I cringe when I see people butcher it.

I also think cutting forms out the system is the way to go, I always felt there where too much to the point of redundancy which caused a lack of bunkai application exploration. I wouldn't overload my students with the standard combos plus specific defenses against other types of attack. At BB left I'd expect them not only be be able to which Combo/DM would work best against say a grab or club but also how to modify the DM to work against it while still maintaining the overall structure of the technique.

 

[kosho]

Hello,
I hope this finds you well. First, If you feel as his teacher he is Black Belt level, and has under gone what you teach to that level, then thats GREAT. I know other 4th and up SKK teachers who also do not teach all the katas in that system to Black Belt.

Myself I teach all the kata's 1-5 P, 1-5 K and many others to the Rank of Black Belt. I get crap for it as I teach to much to Black Belt. From other people. But thats my choice and my students have not issues with it.
about, 20 kata's to black belt. 6 - 8 years of training to BB. at 3 days a week in the dojo.

I think that If you can sign your name to the Cert: and Have no issues with it. Then who cares what others think. GOOD for YOU.

I may get Crap for what I posted here, again What ever.

Kosho

 

[Jdokan]

I still find a lot of relevence in 3-5 pinan and still teach them. Occasionally I think to myself that there is just too much material in the system I teach from white to black but then someone once told me a story of a gentlemen walking into a school and asking how long it took for the average person to get their black belt, without skipping a beat the instructor answered an average person doesn't get their black belt.

my 2 cents

Awesome!!!! Love this quote....

I don't want to throw them away in entirety...just for under Black....They wilkl still be part of the corriculum for him.....I do find value in the them...actually kinda like'm myself....I am exploring having less material practiced for longer periods of time...He has another 40+ years of practicing.....

 

[JTKenpo]

Awesome!!!! Love this quote....

I don't want to throw them away in entirety...just for under Black....They wilkl still be part of the corriculum for him.....I do find value in the them...actually kinda like'm myself....I am exploring having less material practiced for longer periods of time...He has another 40+ years of practicing.....

There will always be pros and cons for more or less material. As long as YOU are happy with what you are doing.

 

[Jdokan]

Appreciate the comments...
I am satisfied with the requirements...As far as I'm concerned he already operates at BB level...In his own school he would have already had his BB...I guess you're tougher on your own than strangers....
Anyways...again thanks for the input....

 

[kenpo3631]

someone once told me a story of a gentlemen walking into a school and asking how long it took for the average person to get their black belt, without skipping a beat the instructor answered an average person doesn't get their black belt.

I've heard that story too. My "$0.02 cents" is that it is a stupid comment to make. I say this because isn't the black belt just an end to justify the means? People come to learn martial arts to better themselves and through the process of learning the art not only do they earn a black belt in the system but in life as well. As instructors we a charged with leading these people down the path of success. When they fail ,we fail. So it shouldn't matter whether you have 10 forms (katas) or 2. The curriculum should be set up for so it is easily learnt and retained. We shouldn't be bound by some notion that because we came up through the ranks and had a million things to learn that it's the right way. Especially if you are a commercial school owner. I was told by my current instructor that he asked Huk Planas about the order that the Parker techniques should be taught (because the old curriculum sheets say on the top "in the order to be taught") and the reply was, "it doesn't matter". Heck I know schools that teach only the techniques that are in the Parker Kenpo forms and have the others as options. I guess it all boils down to what you feel is right for your students and your school, or whether you as bound by an organization or association. :asian:

 

[JTKenpo]

I've heard that story too. My "$0.02 cents" is that it is a stupid comment to make. I say this because isn't the black belt just an end to justify the means? People come to learn martial arts to better themselves and through the process of learning the art not only do they earn a black belt in the system but in life as well. As instructors we a charged with leading these people down the path of success. When they fail ,we fail. So it shouldn't matter whether you have 10 forms (katas) or 2. The curriculum should be set up for so it is easily learnt and retained. We shouldn't be bound by some notion that because we came up through the ranks and had a million things to learn that it's the right way. Especially if you are a commercial school owner. I was told by my current instructor that he asked Huk Planas about the order that the Parker techniques should be taught (because the old curriculum sheets say on the top "in the order to be taught") and the reply was, "it doesn't matter". Heck I know schools that teach only the techniques that are in the Parker Kenpo forms and have the others as options. I guess it all boils down to what you feel is right for your students and your school, or whether you as bound by an organization or association. :asian:

Interesting post, and you are right you shouldn't be bound by what you learned as to what you teach your students. But what does that have to do with the quote? You are entitled not to like it or agree with it and it is not always the teachers shortcomings that cause someone not to make it to black belt. So again what does that have to do with the price of onions?

 

[RevIV]

well I told you before, I stopped requiring 2-5 pinan awhile ago. Hey, will I be seeing you this weekend?

 

[kenpo3631]

Interesting post, and you are right you shouldn't be bound by what you learned as to what you teach your students. But what does that have to do with the quote? You are entitled not to like it or agree with it and it is not always the teachers shortcomings that cause someone not to make it to black belt. So again what does that have to do with the price of onions?

You missed my point. I guess I wasn't clear enough?

The quote was:

without skipping a beat the instructor answered an average person doesn't get their black belt.

I replied with:

that it is a stupid comment to make

Then I went on to explain my reason why I thought it was a stupid comment. Part of my answer was the following:

People come to learn martial arts to better themselves and through the process of learning the art not only do they earn a black belt in the system but in life as well.

In lamens terms, it's not about us JT it's about them. Let me ask you this. Do you believe my statement or are you on board with the person who said "an average person doesn't get their black belt" ?


I find the end of your reply interesting particularly the part when you said:

You are entitled not to like it or agree with it and it is not always the teachers shortcomings that cause someone not to make it to black belt.

There is some truth to that, due to lack of physical or mental disability. However and I'll say it again, the black belt just an end to justify the means in which we improve peoples lives regardless of how much or how little of the information we give them. If we fail in getting them to thier ultimate goal, then we failed as an instructor. I have Mr. Parker on video saying (I'm para-phrasing) "the belt test is not only a test for the students but it's also a test to see how well the instructors ability is to teach those students."

 

[JTKenpo]

You missed my point. I guess I wasn't clear enough?

The quote was:



I replied with:



Then I went on to explain my reason why I thought it was a stupid comment. Part of my answer was the following:



In lamens terms, it's not about us JT it's about them. Let me ask you this. Do you believe my statement or are you on board with the person who said "an average person doesn't get their black belt" ?


I find the end of your reply interesting particularly the part when you said:




There is some truth to that, due to lack of physical or mental disability. However and I'll say it again, the black belt just an end to justify the means in which we improve peoples lives regardless of how much or how little of the information we give them. If we fail in getting them to thier ultimate goal, then we failed as an instructor. I have Mr. Parker on video saying (I'm para-phrasing) "the belt test is not only a test for the students but it's also a test to see how well the instructors ability is to teach those students."

If by not make it to black belt you mean they fail the test then absolutely it falls on the instructor, but people come in and out of the ma all the time and for many different reasons. Sometimes people get all they are going to get out of the ma (or need out of them) before they reach bb, some fall by the way side because of money, time, family matters all different reasons.

I don't completely agree that it is just about the student and not the teacher. Once I started teaching I gained insight into the ma much more quickly and more frequently. Teaching makes you look at the "same old" material in a different light. Is that selfish, I don't think so. As for the average person not getting there bb, I agree with that sorry. Now that doesn't mean that the bb is only for the super gifted. Extraordinary doesn't have to mean physical prowess, but the ability to see things through long periods of time and hard work is not the norm, IMO. I don't believe that the curriculum should be laid out so that it is easy to retain and learn, there should be hard work involved if not then it means little.

 

[RevIV]

The average person should not get a BB without putting in above average time. If everyone should get a black belt why test? Why not just give them a black belt when they sign up. it must be the belt that gives them confidence.? A lot of the commercial schools around here do graduations now, not tests.. sounds like a party I was invited to last June where a kid "graduated" kindergarten, or the other one where he "graduated" from middle school... big whoop - talk about mediocracy. Get a real diploma from H.S. or college and I will come to that party. When people start talking about the instructor failing I feel like im at a EFC or a NAPMA conference -- "talk nice, dont tell them they did anything wrong, and for god sakes dont test them - kids now a days have a enough stress - just let them take there 28 classes and give them a belt" thats crap... for those who do not get the 28 class comment - 8-10 classes a month - 3 months - 28 classes = new belt. 4 belts a year, black belt in 3 years no matter if they are poor, average or exceptional students. Now I have had students who def. fall below the average level and they EARNED their black belts but it took them close to 7 or 8 years. They stuck it out and showed their black belt character.
example 2: 5 kids in a class. all come to the same classes - 4 of them are excelling and the last one is falling behind.. I take that person to the side and help him a little extra and they still do not get better. I later find out that the other 4 were practicing (weird concept) and the other one only did his karate in class. Must be my fault that he does not excell.

 

[kenpo3631]

Hmmmm, I see your point guys.

But if those that achieve black belt are so extra-ordinary, why is it you still see black belts that look like cr@p?

Who is to blame for that? After all don't black belt practitioners get held to a higher standard?

Is it that the instructor sucks?

What is it then?

 

[kenpo3631]

IMO. I don't believe that the curriculum should be laid out so that it is easy to retain and learn, there should be hard work involved if not then it means little.

IMO, the ease in which one retains the material is a direct result of how it is passed on from teacher to student. Do you agree?

 

[JTKenpo]

Hmmmm, I see your point guys.

But if those that achieve black belt are so extra-ordinary, why is it you still see black belts that look like cr@p?

Who is to blame for that? After all don't black belt practitioners get held to a higher standard?

Is it that the instructor sucks?

What is it then?

Again, there are a meriad of reasons behind it. If you have someone that physically can not do more but tries harder then anyone do you hold them back?

 

[JTKenpo]

IMO, the ease in which one retains the material is a direct result of how it is passed on from teacher to student. Do you agree?

I believe that to be one scenario, but some people retain material easier then others and that has nothing to do with the teacher.

I don't think you are wrong here Lance I just believe it is only one side to a multisided issue.

 

[kenpo3631]

Again, there are a meriad of reasons behind it. If you have someone that physically can not do more but tries harder then anyone do you hold them back?

So is then the black belt just a metaphor for success?

 

[JTKenpo]

So is then the black belt just a metaphor for success?

I wish.