K
Kimpatsu
Guest
What would you like to know? Note that the insistence on proper use of terminology is a Shorinji Kenshi trait.
:soapbox:
Shorinji Kempo???
- Thread starter D.Cobb
- Start date
:soapbox:
I'm curious about specifically which arts went into it and what the "schools" within it are--it sounds like there are different systems taught in it, like with the Bujinkan.
K
Kimpatsu
Guest
Unlike the Bujinkan, Shorinji Kempo is a codified art, with a very well organised syllabus. Kaiso also took disparate techniques and organised them into families according to common characteristics; for example, all nuki waza are classified as Ryo-ken, and all gyaku waza as Ryuka-ken.
The main style of punching and kicking are derived from Giwamonken kung fu. In addition, there are elements from Byakuren (White Lotus) and Kakuritsu (White Crane) styles.
HTH.
Konbanwa (Ohayo Gozaimasu ) Kehoe-san,
Sumimasen Gomennasai for my reply, I do not mean it to be negative. Please read with patience.
I do not know (Wakarimasen) a lot about the Japanese Language. (* Written or Spoken *)
I do not know a lot about the Japanese Culture.
I have worked with Japanese Citizens here in the US almost every day for the last three years. Yes, one would think, I would have learned more.
What I have learned is that the Japanese and the Americans and the rest of the world are not that different. You can instruct them, or guide them to learn. You cannot force them.I do not remember the story word for word, with the moral being "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink."
I think we have this lesson here also. You wish to force or to make everyone step in line or to drink the water when you discuss your art.
Education, many times, is learned at different rates for different people, and by different cultures. If you were to guide someone down the road of enlightenment or education and they were insulting you then you would not be held in contempt by your peers for either ignoring of for replying with your own comments be they insults or not. Yet, if the person, is still asking questions, even though you believe you might have answered the question a 1000 times, it means they just do not get it or are not ready to accept the premise or issues you are presenting. Sometimes it is better to allow them to sit back and absorb it, or to try different words.
i.e. Many times at work, I have to take changes in front of a management board to have the decide if we should implement this in production next week or not. If one was to talk to the people who make the decisions before the meeting so they feel like they know what is going on, they will more than likely be on your side and the idea / program approved. If one was to surprise them then they will put their backs up, and if they do not have time to ask the right questions or to get comfortable or time to absorb the idea, they will reject what has been presented, just because.
I do not wish to seem like someone telling anyone how to teach. I am only offering my experiences for you to review and to absorb, and use if one was to think they might help.
One of the other things, I have found while working with the Japanese, is the avoidance of blame and negative words and comments. Such as You Failed or that is wrong. I have found comments like, I believe that does not meet the expectations of GMPT, or I can see how you might think the requirements said this, yet this is what we really wanted, to be much more enlightening. I also apply this to Americans. I get lots of things done. I recently took over another project, (* Working both at the same time *) and I applied what I learned from the first to the second, and within a couple of weeks the Team was moving forward with me at the helm and we had less meetings that were more productive with better attendance, and everyone was doing well. My Apologies, just quoting more of my personal experiences.
I wish you luck
Doumo Arigato Gozaimashita
:asian:
K
Kimpatsu
Guest
Relativism doesn't apply here. As Richard Dawkins wrote: "I think it's important to realize that when two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong."
Japanese is the lingua franca of Shorinji Kempo, so the terms used herein are not American, they are Japanese. And the telling point is that when Americans use the terms "gi" and "kempoka", they do not use them in the belief that these are Americanised words; they mistakenly think that these are genuine Japanese words. But the words are not, and those who speak them are simply wrong.
Japanese is the lingua franca of Shorinji Kempo, so the terms used herein are not American, they are Japanese. And the telling point is that when Americans use the terms "gi" and "kempoka", they do not use them in the belief that these are Americanised words; they mistakenly think that these are genuine Japanese words. But the words are not, and those who speak them are simply wrong.
so where'd gi come from?
(perhaps I missed it further up in the thread)
(perhaps I missed it further up in the thread)
Tony,
Relativism - any theory holding that criteria of judgement are relative, varying with individuals and their environments.
If the person believes they are Japanese words then yes they need to be educated, to the fact that at best they are Amercan Slang.
The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, as long as you are only thinking two dimensional. If you put a 15000 meter tall mountain in the middle then it might be shortest for the person to travel to go around, since they cannot go through something solid. And sometimes, you can make an arguement and have no one understand your point. In the end your message cannot get out if you do not communicate at a level that peopel are willing to listen too, or understand.
As to something being simply wrong. Prove to me any one thing that is absolutely 100% wrong or even 100% right, I will show you a formula with too few variables to properly define the model.
Yes, a form a relativism, or philosphy, or mathematics, or applied physics, you choose.
You state in Shorinji Kempo, these are the terms. And that it is the way it must be. Example, from yourself. You stated that these words Shorinji Kempo, came from Chinese. Where did the Chinese words come from? Who decided what was the proper way to spell or say these words? Was it decided over time as cultures shifted or was it decided like many of the words in the English language by a bunch of drunk scholars at Oxford England? or the fact that the term e-mail was being used so much by the french they created a new word in FRENCH just for this subject. I tell you the English and French languages have grown. From my experiences with the Japanese they do not have Kanji (Spelling) terms for all terms in engineering. Even when the Japanese talk amongst themsleves they use English or even German Terms to communicate. Why? Because they became accepted, since there own language did not have the proper terms. Another example, Tidal Wave. Everyone knows what I mean, yet it is a wrong word, that has been used for many years. Numerous people have switch to Tsunami for this word better represents the actual meaning. Yet, in Japanese they use Torque an english term when discussing engineering terms.
So, are you trying to tell me I am wrong becuase this is the way it has to be becuase this is the way you were taught?
This is fine. This is your belief and or faith then. More Power to you. Just do not expect me to listen to you, if you do not have an open mind.
And thanks for the Arguement, I have enjoyed it so far.
With Respect to you and your beliefs
... in Japanese culture, although tolerated more in America, it is still not "acceptable" by all. Rich, I find you extremely tolerant of an ethnocentric attitude where "correction" is being offered so rudely.
I think your perceptions and the people you work with are much more the norm, and my experience also. Your post clearly shows your awareness of the niceties of communication, and polite manners.
Somehow I found my hackles rising at the correction offered by you Kimpatsu. It is not what you said, nor am I questioning your knowledge or experience, rather I am somewhat uncomfortabe with how you chose to express yourself in this medium. Given your profession I know you have the fund of knowledge and resources to communicate clearly ... that is not the issue. Rather there is a superior and somewhat condesending attitude communicated in your writing. Is this intentional? I assume and hope not. I am not even comfortable relating this to you on this medium. I do appreciate your extensive knowledge of Shorinji-Kempo, which is a part of my history, but not my primary system of Martial Arts. I say this to let you know that it is not what you are saying that is somewhat offensive, but how you are saying it.
Lighten up a little unless you just like the conflict and that is part of the secondary gain for your posting. Then again, others may not take offense.
I will back off and just be a reader learning more about a piece of my own Art's history.
I also want to know about Nightingale's question about gi?
I think your perceptions and the people you work with are much more the norm, and my experience also. Your post clearly shows your awareness of the niceties of communication, and polite manners.
Somehow I found my hackles rising at the correction offered by you Kimpatsu. It is not what you said, nor am I questioning your knowledge or experience, rather I am somewhat uncomfortabe with how you chose to express yourself in this medium. Given your profession I know you have the fund of knowledge and resources to communicate clearly ... that is not the issue. Rather there is a superior and somewhat condesending attitude communicated in your writing. Is this intentional? I assume and hope not. I am not even comfortable relating this to you on this medium. I do appreciate your extensive knowledge of Shorinji-Kempo, which is a part of my history, but not my primary system of Martial Arts. I say this to let you know that it is not what you are saying that is somewhat offensive, but how you are saying it.
Lighten up a little unless you just like the conflict and that is part of the secondary gain for your posting. Then again, others may not take offense.
I will back off and just be a reader learning more about a piece of my own Art's history.
I also want to know about Nightingale's question about gi?
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
OK, I've got the Japanese lesson now. Thank you. I am not offended by Kimpatsu's correction of the (somewhat) common American misuse of "ka" and several other Japanese-isms. Enough of this language discussion already.
Can we talk about Shorinji Kempo? How did Shorinji Kempo evolve to include so many Jujitsu techniques? The art seems a good blend of Shaolin style striking and Jujitsu joint locks and throws. Can anyone shed some light on this.
Can we talk about Shorinji Kempo? How did Shorinji Kempo evolve to include so many Jujitsu techniques? The art seems a good blend of Shaolin style striking and Jujitsu joint locks and throws. Can anyone shed some light on this.
K
Kimpatsu
Guest
Rich, if this is American slang, how come it's itallicised in text? It's viewed as Japanese, so it is WRONG, plain and simple.
You want to talk about Shorinji Kempo? Fine: first learn the correct terminology.
Then ask your questions.
You want to talk about Shorinji Kempo? Fine: first learn the correct terminology.
Then ask your questions.
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
Kimpatsu: We have been discussing terminology for several days now. We have learned our lesson. Can we talk about Shorinji Kempo now?
um... what he said.
Kimpatsu... have you ever heard the expression about catching more flies with honey? (although why anyone would want to catch flies, I have no idea) People will be much more likely to listen to your message if it isn't delivered with quite as much attitude. In order to teach someone something, you must first establish a rapport with your student. If someone doesn't like you, they are much less likely to listen to anything you have to say. Your attitude towards other MartialTalk members has, frankly, discouraged me from looking much further into Shorinji Kempo.
-Nightingale
kenmpoka
Blue Belt
Mr. Billings,
I believe Tony is referring to the common usage of "Gi" as oppose to the more proper way "Do-Gi" .
Salute,
.... I understand. It does not help that KI International and Doshin's web sites use the abbreviated version. Another of those "common usage" things.
The americanism of it is 'Uniform' and specifically "Jacket" and "Pants" (traditional, contact, or elastic.) Geez go figure?
Thanks,
-MB
The americanism of it is 'Uniform' and specifically "Jacket" and "Pants" (traditional, contact, or elastic.) Geez go figure?
Thanks,
-MB
kenmpoka
Blue Belt
What can I tell you my friend. Some are picky!!!
Osu, (let's start one on this now)
lol...
just as long as nobody reposts Gou Ronin's essay on "Smurf Words"
just as long as nobody reposts Gou Ronin's essay on "Smurf Words"
K
Kimpatsu
Guest
"Smurf words"?
kenmpoka
Blue Belt
Gou aka Dougie is in check. Don't worry about him. Love to see him some day face to face.LOL
"In" joke concerning a former member and his humor. (I think)
:asian:
K
Kimpatsu
Guest
Ah.
Thank you.
