Shorinji Kempo???

[D.Cobb]

I have just read the September issue of Black Belt magazine, and I have a question regarding the article about Shorinji Kempo.
The article states that Doshin So lived, worked and trained in China. It says that he trained with a Shaolin master named Wen Laoshi. It goes on to say that Doshin So was permitted to succeed Laoshi as the 21st master of NORTHERN SHORINJI GIWAMONKEN SCHOOL.

My question is this, if the school is in China, founded by a Chinese person, why on earth would it have a Japanese name?

Surely as a Chinese system, it would be called either ShaoLin, or Sil Lum.

Of course this then leads to questioning the authenticity of systems called Chinese or Shaolin Kempo. Because Kempo is the Okinawan/ Japanese word, shouldn't these systems called Chinese or Shaolin Chuan Fa?

Any thoughts....

--Dave

 

[Dim Mak]

Hello Mr. Cobb,

It is definitely questionable when you see someone mix a language from one country with an art from another. I've seen this alot when someone "make up" a lineage or founds a "new" art.

I didn't read the article, but it only seems that someone would change the Chinese name to Japanese, if the lineage was passed through Japan or a Japanese instructor.

R. McLain

 

[D.Cobb]

If this were the case then, that he changed the name from the Chinese name to the Japanese name, wouldn't he then become the 1st Grandmaster of the Japanese style, instead of 21st Grandmaster of the Chinese style?

--Dave:asian:

 

[Dim Mak]

Hello,

Well, not really. Just another language for the same terminology - as long as he doesn't claim to have created anything new.

One of the Masters in my lineage, Byung In Yoon, studied Chinese Chuan-fa in Manchuria during the 1920's & 1930's. When he returned to Korea in 1945, he used the Korean term, "Kwon Bup" to describe the art. "Kwon Bup" is the Korean translation for Chuan-fa - in English it's "Fist method." Byung In Yoon didn't claim to teach anything new, but preferred to preserve what he learned from China.

I suppose the terminology can get into a sticky debate, but I think it really comes down to the intentions of the person that makes the name change.

There are so many people making false claims and "creating new styles" in the world that a name change, as mentioned in your first post above, is a natural "red flag" that something is wrong or false, though it is not always the case.

Sincerely,

Robert McLain

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
I have just read the September issue of Black Belt magazine, and I have a question regarding the article about Shorinji Kempo.
The article states that Doshin So lived, worked and trained in China. It says that he trained with a Shaolin master named Wen Laoshi. It goes on to say that Doshin So was permitted to succeed Laoshi as the 21st master of NORTHERN SHORINJI GIWAMONKEN SCHOOL.

My question is this, if the school is in China, founded by a Chinese person, why on earth would it have a Japanese name?

Surely as a Chinese system, it would be called either ShaoLin, or Sil Lum.

Of course this then leads to questioning the authenticity of systems called Chinese or Shaolin Kempo. Because Kempo is the Okinawan/ Japanese word, shouldn't these systems called Chinese or Shaolin Chuan Fa?

Any thoughts....

--Dave

Simple. "Giwamonken" is the Japanese translation of the Chinese name. We don't say "Shaolin" because we are a Japanese art, founded by a Japanese national. We wear dogi, not Chinese clothes, and all our terminology--technical terms, instructions, etc.--are in Japanese. The name itself, Shorinji Kempo, is the Japanese reading of the Chinese "Shaolin Ssu Chuan'fa".
HTH.

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
If this were the case then, that he changed the name from the Chinese name to the Japanese name, wouldn't he then become the 1st Grandmaster of the Japanese style, instead of 21st Grandmaster of the Chinese style?

--Dave:asian:

The Chinese Giwamonken school no longer exists; its systems live on in the Giwaken family of techniques and Embu of Shorinji Kempo.
I'm starting to think this may be a troll, Mr. Cobb...

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
The Chinese Giwamonken school no longer exists; its systems live on in the Giwaken family of techniques and Embu of Shorinji Kempo.
I'm starting to think this may be a troll, Mr. Cobb...

No Sir, no troll. Just someone who likes to learn by asking questions, rather than make assumptions.

Here is what I don't understand, in your previous post you said,

"Giwamonken" is the Japanese translation of the Chinese name

But in this post you state that

The Chinese Giwamonken school no longer exists

Thereby intimating that Giwamonken is in fact the Chinese term.

Which then brings me back to my original question, which was,

I have just read the September issue of Black Belt magazine, and I have a question regarding the article about Shorinji Kempo.
The article states that Doshin So lived, worked and trained in China. It says that he trained with a Shaolin master named Wen Laoshi. It goes on to say that Doshin So was permitted to succeed Laoshi as the 21st master of NORTHERN SHORINJI GIWAMONKEN SCHOOL.

My question is this, if the school is in China, founded by a Chinese person, why on earth would it have a Japanese name?

And my question directly applies to the actual term as used in the Black Belt article, I actually had the mag on my lap as I typed that question originally.

I'm assuming(which is probably a bad thing to do) that the Japanese translation would be "Giwaken". Now from what was written, I would assume that the original name may have been something like NORTHERN SHAOLIN GIWAMONKEN SCHOOL. Which would then change via translation to Shorinji Giwaken or something along those lines.
I guess the reason I find it so hard to understand is, from the western perspective, all the different styles keep their respective names, even if we westerners know the English Translation.
You know, GOJU means Hard/ Soft. JUDO means Soft Way, stuff like that, so how come the 21st Grandmaster of a Chinese Style, obviously steeped in tradition, would see fit to change the name.

And my next question in that same vein would then be, if he was indeed the 21st GM of the NSGS, and then decided to change the name, wouldn't he then become the 1st GM of Shorinji Kempo, or what ever the full name of the system is now.

Please understand, I wish no offense by this line of questioning, I just wish to learn.

I hope this makes my agenda clearer to you...

--Dave


:asian:

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
But in this post you state that Thereby intimating that Giwamonken is in fact the Chinese term.

Which then brings me back to my original question

I can't speak Chinese, and in Shorinji Kempo, all terminology is in Japanese, so I will always stick to that. If it helps "giwamondan" is the Japanese for the Boxers.

Originally posted by D.Cobb
I'm assuming(which is probably a bad thing to do) that the Japanese translation would be "Giwaken".

Giwaken is the name of a family of techniques within Shorinji Kempo, like Tennoken, Nioken, and Ryuoken.

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Now from what was written, I would assume that the original name may have been something like NORTHERN SHAOLIN GIWAMONKEN SCHOOL.

Kita Shorinji Giwamonken. You're mixing Japanese and Chinese.

Originally posted by D.Cobb
I guess the reason I find it so hard to understand is, from the western perspective, all the different styles keep their respective names, even if we westerners know the English Translation.
You know, GOJU means Hard/ Soft. JUDO means Soft Way, stuff like that, so how come the 21st Grandmaster of a Chinese Style, obviously steeped in tradition, would see fit to change the name.

He didn't "change the name"; as a Japanese, he simply pronounced the characters as they are read in Japanese. For the same reason, Osaka is called "Daiban" in Chinese.

Originally posted by D.Cobb
And my next question in that same vein would then be, if he was indeed the 21st GM of the NSGS, and then decided to change the name, wouldn't he then become the 1st GM of Shorinji Kempo, or what ever the full name of the system is now..

Shorinji Kempo is a completely new art that Kaiso started in 1947. He isn't called "Soke" because Shorinji Kempo is not an iemoto system. Kaiso became the 21st head of the Giwamonken school, but didn't teach Giwamonken, which is why the art is now defunct. Instead, Kaiso returned to Japan, and codified the Giwamonken with all the other arts he had learned, to create a new art: Shorinji Kempo.
If you have any mroe questions, feel free.

 

[arnisador]

What does this mean?

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by arnisador
What does this mean?

The iemoto system, from which the word "soke" derives, in which arts are passed through household lineages from master to apprentice.

 

[kenmpoka]

Like Mr. Kehoe explained, the name of the system was not changed, it is just pronounced in a different way in Japanese. Besides So Doshin's Martial arts background was largely in Hakkoryu Jujutsu and ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Karate-Do (with Kaiso Masayoshi Kori Hisataka). He then added teachings of Zen Buddhism to his MA training with some knowledge picked up in China.

In any case Shorinji Kempo is a fine balanced art with a strong lineage and techniques.

By the way, one of the uke in the Black Belt Magazine article, Sammy Briggs, is my senior in Shinkendo and Aikido. A fine martial artist and a Los Angeles police officer. He is very fond of his Shorinji Kempo teacher, Kuramoto Sensei.

Salute,

 

[Kimpatsu]

Gassho, Peter.
I know Sammy very well from world Taikai here in Japan.
I'd just like to point out, however, that your handle is not Japanese. I know where you're coming from, because if we say Kareteka and Aikidoka, then a practitioner of Kempo must be a Kempoka, right?
Unfortunately, "-ka" as a suffix to denote an exponent of something can only be used if the art in question is a "-do", as in Aikido or Iaido. If Karate appears to be an exception, it isn't; remember that it's short for Karatedo. (Although I had one teacher at Kyoto University who was a stickler for grammar and maintained that "karateka" was wrong; you should always say, "karatedoka".)
By contrast, a practitioner of Kempo is called a Kenshi.
HTH.
Kesshu.

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Gassho, Peter.
I know Sammy very well from world Taikai here in Japan.
I'd just like to point out, however, that your handle is not Japanese. I know where you're coming from, because if we say Kareteka and Aikidoka, then a practitioner of Kempo must be a Kempoka, right?
Unfortunately, "-ka" as a suffix to denote an exponent of something can only be used if the art in question is a "-do", as in Aikido or Iaido. If Karate appears to be an exception, it isn't; remember that it's short for Karatedo. (Although I had one teacher at Kyoto University who was a stickler for grammar and maintained that "karateka" was wrong; you should always say, "karatedoka".)
By contrast, a practitioner of Kempo is called a Kenshi.
HTH.
Kesshu.

Thank you Tony for the explanation on the usage of "Ka". I am aware of the proper usage but unfortunately in the west "Kenshi" is not recognizable. Most relate to the usage of Karate-ka and Kenpoka. How about "Kenpi"?

Domo Arigato....

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Thank you Tony for the explanation on the usage of "Ka". I am aware of the proper usage but unfortunately in the west "Kenshi" is not recognizable. Most relate to the usage of Karate-ka and Kenpoka. How about "Kenpi"?
Domo Arigato....

Surely then it's incumbent upon us to educate them? Misuse of non-Japanese like "kempoka" and "gi" set my teeth on edge. Correct use will, over time, raise people's awareness and the correct term will come to be used naturally.
Do itashimashite...
:soapbox:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
I can't speak Chinese, and in Shorinji Kempo, all terminology is in Japanese, so I will always stick to that. If it helps "giwamondan" is the Japanese for the Boxers.

Giwaken is the name of a family of techniques within Shorinji Kempo, like Tennoken, Nioken, and Ryuoken.

Kita Shorinji Giwamonken. You're mixing Japanese and Chinese.

He didn't "change the name"; as a Japanese, he simply pronounced the characters as they are read in Japanese. For the same reason, Osaka is called "Daiban" in Chinese.

Shorinji Kempo is a completely new art that Kaiso started in 1947. He isn't called "Soke" because Shorinji Kempo is not an iemoto system. Kaiso became the 21st head of the Giwamonken school, but didn't teach Giwamonken, which is why the art is now defunct. Instead, Kaiso returned to Japan, and codified the Giwamonken with all the other arts he had learned, to create a new art: Shorinji Kempo.
If you have any mroe questions, feel free.

Thank you, that explains everything. It was worth the wait.
--Dave

:asian:

See, I told you I'm not a troll!

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Like Mr. Kehoe explained, the name of the system was not changed, it is just pronounced in a different way in Japanese. Besides So Doshin's Martial arts background was largely in Hakkoryu Jujutsu and ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Karate-Do (with Kaiso Masayoshi Kori Hisataka). He then added teachings of Zen Buddhism to his MA training with some knowledge picked up in China.

In any case Shorinji Kempo is a fine balanced art with a strong lineage and techniques.

By the way, one of the uke in the Black Belt Magazine article, Sammy Briggs, is my senior in Shinkendo and Aikido. A fine martial artist and a Los Angeles police officer. He is very fond of his Shorinji Kempo teacher, Kuramoto Sensei.

Salute,

Hey, don't get me wrong, I wasn't bagging the system or the practitioners. All I have seen of either is in magazines. I don't even have an opinion of these things, because I havent been up close and personal yet.

If my wordings gave the impression that I was bagging either, then I apologize, it was not my intent.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Surely then it's incumbent upon us to educate them? Misuse of non-Japanese like "kempoka" and "gi" set my teeth on edge. Correct use will, over time, raise people's awareness and the correct term will come to be used naturally.
Do itashimashite...
:soapbox:

Actually we did for a while have a gentleman on this BB that attempted to educate those of us who would listen, but unfortunately he is no longer on here, so feel free to educate.

By the way, what is KENPI?

--Dave

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
By the way, what is KENPI?

I think it's meant to be "kenshi": a practitioner of kempo.

 

[arnisador]

One often hears Kenpoka for a practititioner of American Kenpo--I suspect that that's part of where we get Kempoka in the West.

 

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by arnisador
One often hears Kenpoka for a practititioner of American Kenpo--I suspect that that's part of where we get Kempoka in the West.

And it's still completely wrong. It's not a Japanese word.