Self Defense usage of the Grappling Arts

[JP3]

What if the guns in my hand and I only shoot the other guy in his hands?

Hand to Hand combat....

Hmm...

What if you've got a gun, he's got a gun, and you shoot the gun out of the other guy's hands? Wouldn't that be more correct? I could, of course, point out that your continuing to debate this with them is sort of... hilarious? Ludicrous? But, I sense that you are a last word guy, right?

 

[JP3]

Huh. I don't remember any of that being in there.

Gerry, remember that first there was D&D, then Advanced D&D (AD&D), then AD&D itself went through editions, which amounted to substantive rules changes, expansions and complexity increasing of rules, then back the other way of the continuum to more simplicity and so forth. I heard just last month that they had sometime recently released another edition. I admit, your stuff above made me curious. Would you believe they are up to 5th Ed. AD&D now?

Editions of Dungeons & Dragons - Wikipedia

Oh, and Fried Rice has Quivering Palm technique down. So did JCVD in Bloodsport, remember.

 

[FriedRice]

Hand to Hand combat....

Hmm...

What if you've got a gun, he's got a gun, and you shoot the gun out of the other guy's hands? Wouldn't that be more correct? I could, of course, point out that your continuing to debate this with them is sort of... hilarious? Ludicrous? But, I sense that you are a last word guy, right?

You just won that title.

 

[Isaiah90]

This is a question that comes through our gym from time to time, and it is also something I have been pontificating about as well. I know that I watch a lot of videos of street fights, self defense, concealed carry, and so on. And I know that the self defense classes I listen in on frequently discourage grappling. "You are on the ground and you are dead."

Well. I get that. But it isn't always your choice. So it makes me wonder. Does your class take into account the self defense side of grappling? Mine does not, but I am thinking about learning more. Especially because I'm a concealed carrier, I want every available option before the gun. And while I am well versed in BJJ/Judo, I want to add more in the punch defense and so on. So what do you pontificate about in this area as it relates to self defense?


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When you end up on the ground, my method is to end the conflict period or recover quickly back to a standing position. Reach for a weapon if you have one or resort to foul tactics to create some distance, end conflict, or to control your attacker.

 

[now disabled]

When you end up on the ground, my method is to end the conflict period or recover quickly back to a standing position. Reach for a weapon if you have one or resort to foul tactics to create some distance, end conflict, or to control your attacker.

I do understand what you mean by foul tactics , however there are no foul tactics in a self defense situation. The rule book goes out the window

creating space yeah I get that however your getting into a martial arts context now, to me in your area of teaching stick to more basic concepts and terminology ie get away escape etc etc

I know I am maybe nit picking but ... using MA buzz words can lead to other things as guys on here who are grapplers and are skilled artists think of those things and may call you out on your concept which may be different to yours in self defense

not having a go at all just well you know

 

[drop bear]

When you end up on the ground, my method is to end the conflict period or recover quickly back to a standing position. Reach for a weapon if you have one or resort to foul tactics to create some distance, end conflict, or to control your attacker.

That is my method when I roll.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When you end up on the ground, my method is to end the conflict period or recover quickly back to a standing position. Reach for a weapon if you have one or resort to foul tactics to create some distance, end conflict, or to control your attacker.

That’s a strategy, not a method.

 

[pdg]

I have a question I've been meaning to ask for a while, and seeing as the thread has already wandered a bit I might as well ask it here...


So, almost every time the subject of SD comes up, going to the ground gets mentioned.

Then, it's said that's bad, for amongst other reasons it means rolling around in broken glass (and I've seen fecal matter, vomit, needles and other nasties mentioned too).

Where the hell do these people live???

I can (and have) walk around town with bare feet and the worst that happens is you tread on a little stone.

Around here it's possible to get a job titled "street sweeper" (although nowadays it's probably something more like "public space cleanliness technical engineer"...) It ranges from a guy with a broom to a dedicated vehicle with brushes and a big vacuum cleaner that drives around picking stuff up.

Maybe it would be a good idea to make the suggestion to your local administration, it'll surely improve any SD situation - I can supply photos to assist with lobbying if required?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have a question I've been meaning to ask for a while, and seeing as the thread has already wandered a bit I might as well ask it here...


So, almost every time the subject of SD comes up, going to the ground gets mentioned.

Then, it's said that's bad, for amongst other reasons it means rolling around in broken glass (and I've seen fecal matter, vomit, needles and other nasties mentioned too).

Where the hell do these people live???

I can (and have) walk around town with bare feet and the worst that happens is you tread on a little stone.

Around here it's possible to get a job titled "street sweeper" (although nowadays it's probably something more like "public space cleanliness technical engineer"...) It ranges from a guy with a broom to a dedicated vehicle with brushes and a big vacuum cleaner that drives around picking stuff up.

Maybe it would be a good idea to make the suggestion to your local administration, it'll surely improve any SD situation - I can supply photos to assist with lobbying if required?

Seriously, most places, outside city business/shopping districts, aren't that clean. All of those are real, but minimal, risks. The ground is a problem, but not made of lava (to borrow @drop bear's comment). Sometimes, going to the ground is actually a good idea. All else being equal, I'd prefer to end up down there. I think the wild exaggeration of the risk of being on the ground comes from early reactions to BJJ's early marketing, which often overstated its ability to defend anything.

 

[now disabled]

Seriously, most places, outside city business/shopping districts, aren't that clean. All of those are real, but minimal, risks. The ground is a problem, but not made of lava (to borrow @drop bear's comment). Sometimes, going to the ground is actually a good idea. All else being equal, I'd prefer to end up down there. I think the wild exaggeration of the risk of being on the ground comes from early reactions to BJJ's early marketing, which often overstated its ability to defend anything.

I'm the opposite I don't want to go to ground ...not because of landing in anything (the last consideration on my mind if a person was going to attack me was hang on dude gotta check there no dog crap first) it because I am not good on the ground esp now the way I am. apart really from the pins and suwari waza (which really I wouldn't count in this scenario) Aikido doesn't have the techs like bjj so I wanna stay on my feet

Yup before someone states the obvious it a flaw lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm the opposite I don't want to go to ground ...not because of landing in anything (the last consideration on my mind if a person was going to attack me was hang on dude gotta check there no dog crap first) it because I am not good on the ground esp now the way I am. apart really from the pins and suwari waza (which really I wouldn't count in this scenario) Aikido doesn't have the techs like bjj so I wanna stay on my feet

Yup before someone states the obvious it a flaw lol

Oh, I prefer to be on my feet, too, if only because I hate standing back up. I don't like the lack of mobility, additional vulnerability, and having to stand back up (did I mention I don't like having to stand back up?). I've cultivated just enough ground ability to reasonably expect to be able to handle most folks on the ground if I have to, but in most cases standing up is a much better idea. And I won't have to stand back up.

 

[now disabled]

Oh, I prefer to be on my feet, too, if only because I hate standing back up. I don't like the lack of mobility, additional vulnerability, and having to stand back up (did I mention I don't like having to stand back up?). I've cultivated just enough ground ability to reasonably expect to be able to handle most folks on the ground if I have to, but in most cases standing up is a much better idea. And I won't have to stand back up.[/QUOTE

Ah it all revealed lol thats why you really wanted the cane it to help you stand back up lol

Hey guys kick away his cane and he screwed

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ah it all revealed lol thats why you really wanted the cane it to help you stand back up lol

Hey guys kick away his cane and he screwed

And if you do it just before I put weight on it, that's very aiki.

 

[now disabled]

And if you do it just before I put weight on it, that's very aiki.

umm no it just being a b*tard and kicking poor dudes cane away

 

[Gerry Seymour]

umm no it just being a b*tard and kicking poor dudes cane away

Well, okay, so not very much in keeping with O-sensei's philosophy. But physically, very low effort and likely to produce a spectacular fall.

 

[now disabled]

Well, okay, so not very much in keeping with O-sensei's philosophy. But physically, very low effort and likely to produce a spectacular fall.

Ah but you know how to do the feather fall so ..........yeah come to think of it ...a Shioda moment ....that def getting added to the demo list

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ah but you know how to do the feather fall so ..........yeah come to think of it ...a Shioda moment ....that def getting added to the demo list

Like, agree, funny, and dislike.

 

[now disabled]

Like, agree, funny, and dislike.

I shall endeavour to work harder to gain the full set

 

[axelb]

after about 2 years at judo I had the misfortune of an attack. they tried to pull me to the ground, but that wasn't happening with a Judoka!

another incident a few years on, I was already on that ground when attacked (skateboarding) and was able to get up and move with 3 attacking me, 2 followed up re-ting l trying to grab and pull me down again, but that wasn't happening.

the ground is not a nice place to choose to be on, that's why grappling is so important, you are the one on control of who goes to the ground.
I hear this from other grapple based martial artists; you have more control on whether it goes to the ground or not when you have experience in grappling.
a common throw strategy on judo is to follow up the throw with landing on them (a classic examples, hip throws to scarf hold).
I would not want to be on the underside of that onto concrete!!! it was painful enough on the mats.

 

[TMA17]

I've been thinking a lot lately about the importance of the grappling arts for SD. Fights obviously go to the ground. A good BJJ person wants it to go to the ground, a good striker does not. Knowing both is clearly the most important approach. I took a few months off and am about to start training again. My goal is to learn some grappling, but I'm leaning towards CCW. It's very hard to find a CCW place.

I spoke to an instructor today from PSD and they offer CCW (catch can wrestling). The little research that I've done has made me really interested in learning this art. I believe it's probably one of, if not the best, grappling art to know for SD.

Philadelphia JKD Grappling and Catch Wresting

"Much like JKD itself, we take an integrated approach to grappling that consists of sensitivity in flowing with positioning, escapes, take-downs, throws, lockups and ground fighting from Combat Submission Wrestling (CSW), Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Judo, Filipino Dumog, Submission Arts Wrestling (SAW,) Catch Wrestling (Catch-as-catch-can) and WWII combatives."

As much as I love striking, realistically in a fight if you connect with your fist, good chance it's going to break. Use of elbows or palm strikes/kicks are probably better options. On the flip side, knowing a good grappling art can really help you avoid that and maintain some control.

The really good IKMA school also has a good amount of ground work incorporated into their system. It's based on wrestling and Japanese JJ. Their view is do what you can to avoid going to the ground and once on the ground they want you up as soon as possible.