Self Defense Myths

[Xue Sheng]

Interesting podcast from Martial Journeys.

Martial Journeys of Madison
Episode 27: Self Defense Myths

Thought you might find it interesting and thought it might start some discussion.

 

[Steve]

Interesting podcast from Martial Journeys.

Martial Journeys of Madison
Episode 27: Self Defense Myths

Thought you might find it interesting and thought it might start some discussion.

What did you find interesting? What are your thoughts?

 

[Xue Sheng]

What did you find interesting? What are your thoughts?

Not something I really want to get into, since my experience on MT tells me it will go south and I do not wish to get into that aspect of online forums again.

But I thought others might find it interesting and I was hoping it would generate discussion for the folks of MT.

However I will say I agree with much of it and the ground fighting bit I knew about the police study it was based on a few years back. That one I thought might be of interest to folks a well

 

[Steve]

Not something I really want to get into, since my experience on MT tells me it will go bad. But I thought others might find it interesting and I was hoping it would generate discussion for the folks of MT.

However I will say I agree with much of it and the ground fighting bit I knew about the police study it was based on a few years back. That one I thought might be of interest to folks a well

Hmm... so you're posting it, don't want to share your own views, and think it "will go bad?" Come on, man.

For anyone who doesn't have 30 minutes to spare, the podcast lists several common myths. Below are the ones I caught:

1. We live in the most violent times in history.
2. Teaching kids to mistrust all adults is a bad idea.
3. Sexual assault myths
4. Bad guys always have a weapon.
5. A woman can't win against a man.
6. Technique always beats strength.
7. Sparring is the same as self defense
8. Some techniques work every time.
9. The groin kick
10. Most fights go to the ground
11. Self defense is any violent encounter outside of training.
12. Adrenaline myths
13. Yelling fire to overcome the bystander effect.

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

overall really good, just a few comments on some of the points

• known strangers is also a good concept to help differentiate
• it good to watch for un common attacks but if people also have things built up in their head of fearing x attack its still good to give them the peace of mind on it
• on weapons she brings up a good point cause much of violence goes un reported, as for most reported assaults (depending on how you break things down in categories) weapons are introduced 25-30% of the time
• good point on technique (skill of technique) and weight, however i often feel there is a third piece that often goes un recognized - selection of technique such as an elbow cover to a punch vs a parry
• the overlap and difference of sparring vs violence
• if youre going to hit the groin hit it again and again and move on to something else
• a small study i saw on you tube fight encounters found about 25% both parties go to the ground still fighting, but shes right on the myth
• love it, most real self defense has little fighting moves
• adrenaline in encounter, people think they will rise to the occasion when in fact we fall to our training
• good store of bystander affect - medium rich enviroments are better. Help is ok to yell but at a long range the the H and P sound fall apart and people hear EL, so No and Fire do work better for getting peoples attention at long range

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hmm... so you're posting it, don't want to share your own views, and think it "will go bad?" Come on, man.

For anyone who doesn't have 30 minutes to spare, the podcast lists several common myths. Below are the ones I caught:

1. We live in the most violent times in history.
2. Teaching kids to mistrust all adults is a bad idea.
3. Sexual assault myths
4. Bad guys always have a weapon.
5. A woman can't win against a man.
6. Technique always beats strength.
7. Sparring is the same as self defense
8. Some techniques work every time.
9. The groin kick
10. Most fights go to the ground
11. Self defense is any violent encounter outside of training.
12. Adrenaline myths
13. Yelling fire to overcome the bystander effect.

Yup, and your proving my point.

Why is it necessary for my views at all, are the folks here not capable of having a conversation about it without me....if not, oh well, if so, enjoy

 

[Steve]

Yup, and your proving my point.

Why is it necessary for my views at all, are the folks here not capable of having a conversation about it without me....if not, oh well, if so, enjoy

LOL. It's self fulfilling, like going on a first date and saying, "I'm not interested in dating and I'm sure this isn't going to go very well." Not with that attitude, Mister.

 

[Steve]

Things that stood out to me:

1. We live in the most violent times in history. - I agree, and liked her points about teaching kids and adults techniques they'll probably never need to use.
2. Teaching kids to mistrust all adults is a bad idea. - Great points here, too.
3. Sexual assault myths - And here. We've had a lot of informative discussions on the topic here from some very knowledgeable people.
4. Bad guys always have a weapon. - I've never heard this, but I guess it's a variation on the "What if" scenarios often presented. What if there's a knife? What if you're fighting on a cliff?
5. A woman can't win against a man. - Yup. Good points here.
6. Technique always beats strength. - Yup.
7. Sparring is the same as self defense - This got a little squirrelly for me, mainly because I'm not sure how she was defining "sparring." She seems to refer to everything outside of an assault as sparring. But I do agree with her point that training isn't self defense. I've said many times that nothing is self defense accept self defense. So, everything will involve some kind of transfer of learning. The keys to success are how similar one's skill set is to the new context, and how skilled one is in that skill set.
8. Some techniques work every time. - Seems like common sense.
9. The groin kick - yeah, more common sense.
10. Most fights go to the ground - Good points that we've heard before. But while it's true that the LAPD study doesn't support the claim that "most fights go to the ground" it also doesn't refute the claim. So, sure, we can say that it's not necessarily true that most fights go to the ground, but the reality is that we don't keep that kind of statistical data, so it's impossible to say either way. Simply put, most fights MIGHT go to the ground... or they MIGHT NOT. We don't really know beyond anecdotal information.
    
    So, if you're basing your entire self defense training on the idea that all fights to go the ground, or the inverse, you're not doing so based on actual data. But that doesn't mean you're wrong or right.
11. Self defense is any violent encounter outside of training. - This is a good way to think about self defense. But I'm inclined to agree because, as I've said many times, fighting skills are probably the least important self defense "skill", if being safe is one's goal. Context matters, of course.
12. Adrenaline myths - Hadn't ever heard that some folks train techniques hoping/banking on them working only if they're amped up on adrenaline. That sounds like a terrible idea.
13. Yelling fire to overcome the bystander effect. - haven't thought much about this.

 

[Buka]

Things that stood out to me:

1. We live in the most violent times in history. - I agree, and liked her points about teaching kids and adults techniques they'll probably never need to use.
2. Teaching kids to mistrust all adults is a bad idea. - Great points here, too.
3. Sexual assault myths - And here. We've had a lot of informative discussions on the topic here from some very knowledgeable people.
4. Bad guys always have a weapon. - I've never heard this, but I guess it's a variation on the "What if" scenarios often presented. What if there's a knife? What if you're fighting on a cliff?
5. A woman can't win against a man. - Yup. Good points here.
6. Technique always beats strength. - Yup.
7. Sparring is the same as self defense - This got a little squirrelly for me, mainly because I'm not sure how she was defining "sparring." She seems to refer to everything outside of an assault as sparring. But I do agree with her point that training isn't self defense. I've said many times that nothing is self defense accept self defense. So, everything will involve some kind of transfer of learning. The keys to success are how similar one's skill set is to the new context, and how skilled one is in that skill set.
8. Some techniques work every time. - Seems like common sense.
9. The groin kick - yeah, more common sense.
10. Most fights go to the ground - Good points that we've heard before. But while it's true that the LAPD study doesn't support the claim that "most fights go to the ground" it also doesn't refute the claim. So, sure, we can say that it's not necessarily true that most fights go to the ground, but the reality is that we don't keep that kind of statistical data, so it's impossible to say either way. Simply put, most fights MIGHT go to the ground... or they MIGHT NOT. We don't really know beyond anecdotal information.
    
    So, if you're basing your entire self defense training on the idea that all fights to go the ground, or the inverse, you're not doing so based on actual data. But that doesn't mean you're wrong or right.
11. Self defense is any violent encounter outside of training. - This is a good way to think about self defense. But I'm inclined to agree because, as I've said many times, fighting skills are probably the least important self defense "skill", if being safe is one's goal. Context matters, of course.
12. Adrenaline myths - Hadn't ever heard that some folks train techniques hoping/banking on them working only if they're amped up on adrenaline. That sounds like a terrible idea.
13. Yelling fire to overcome the bystander effect. - haven't thought much about this.

I have to wait until later to listen to it, my wife is working on the computer and phone right now. And since my phone no longer lets me do MT, I have to use my laptop.

I did listen to the first minute and a half when my wife walked out to her truck to get something. Liked what I heard. But, Steve, your post might confuse any who haven't listened to the audio.

When you said "We live in the most violent times in history. - I agree, and liked her points about teaching kids and adults techniques they'll probably never need to use."

I know you and I both agree with her comment about that we are NOT living in the most violent times.

Just read different, not trying to nitpick. Apologies if it seems so.

 

[Steve]

I have to wait until later to listen to it, my wife is working on the computer and phone right now. And since my phone no longer lets me do MT, I have to use my laptop.

I did listen to the first minute and a half when my wife walked out to her truck to get something. Liked what I heard. But, Steve, your post might confuse any who haven't listened to the audio.

When you said "We live in the most violent times in history. - I agree, and liked her points about teaching kids and adults techniques they'll probably never need to use."

I know you and I both agree with her comment about that we are NOT living in the most violent times.

Just read different, not trying to nitpick. Apologies if it seems so.

Sorry, it's just the opposite. The myth is that we live in the most violent times in history. The gist is that things are actually far safer now than at any other time in history, though we do have more awareness of violence. My bad. That does come across as confusing.

 

[Buka]

Sorry, it's just the opposite. The myth is that we live in the most violent times in history. The gist is that things are actually far safer now than at any other time in history, though we do have more awareness of violence. My bad. That does come across as confusing.

I agree. But we might very well be living in the oddest time in recent history. Or at least in the last hundred years.

It's so odd. A year ago if I saw somebody outside wearing a mask I'd perceive a probable immediate danger.
And if I were working I'd approach immediately

Now, when I see someone without a mask I run the other way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

6. Technique always beats strength. - Yup.

Disagree! Strength and speed defeat all techniques.

Example:

Strength - If you can control your opponent's arms together, none of his techniques will work on you.
Speed - If your punch is faster than you opponent's blocking, you can knock him down by 1 punch.

 

[Steve]

Disagree! Strength and speed defeat all techniques.

Example:

Strength - If you can control your opponent's arms together, none of his techniques will work on you.
Speed - If your punch is faster than you opponent's blocking, you can knock him down by 1 punch.

To all, I'm sorry to have confused the issue. What I posted were the myths. I.e., it is a myth that technique always beats strength. So, when I said, "Yup." I intended to say, "Yes, I agree that this is a myth." I can see now how confusing my initial post was.

 

[drop bear]

It is an issue in the way self defense is presented that the concept of these myths appear in the first place.

Where people have to get their knowledge of self defence second hand they rely on these stories to act as knowledge.

Some are true. Some are not and context matters.

They are not really myths Exept in the way they are delivered. Without context, depth or personal expertise in the subject.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I agree. But we might very well be living in the oddest time in recent history. Or at least in the last hundred years.

It's so odd. A year ago if I saw somebody outside wearing a mask I'd perceive a probable immediate danger.
And if I were working I'd approach immediately

Now, when I see someone without a mask I run the other way.

So you still approach those with a mask. Nothing changed.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Hmm... so you're posting it, don't want to share your own views, and think it "will go bad?" Come on, man.

For anyone who doesn't have 30 minutes to spare, the podcast lists several common myths. Below are the ones I caught:

1. 
   
2. Teaching kids to mistrust all adults is a bad idea.

Haven't yet listened, but just want clarification on this one. Is it suggesting that the myth is teaching kids to mistrust all adults is bad-meaning in reality the right thing to do is teach kids to mistrust all adults? Or is it suggesting the opposite, and there's an accident double-negative(kinda) in there?

If it's the first, I'd have to disagree with that. Kids should know to distrust most strangers. But not all adults. If they're lost and see a police officer they should absolutely go up to him to ask him for help. Or go into a store and find a worker to ask if they can call for their mom. Or if they're baseball coach comes over to say hi, that's okay and they're allowed to talk to him. Or trust that they can meet with their teacher without anything bad happening, or their family members.

What they should do is teach kids to avoid going places alone with adults (even some trusted ones) without your parents knowledge/permission. And that they should be the one initiating contact if they are lost, with someone clearly marked as an employee of wherever they are, not the random guy who asks "are you lost? Come with me". But there is a very big line between "all adults shouldn't be trusted" and "be careful around strangers".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Now, when I see someone without a mask I run the other way.

A: Dear master! What's the most effective self-defense technique?
B: Take off your mask and cough.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This seems like as good a place as any to post this.

 

[Buka]

So you still approach those with a mask. Nothing changed.

No. I don't approach anybody. Not working and might not ever work again.

 

[Steve]

Haven't yet listened, but just want clarification on this one. Is it suggesting that the myth is teaching kids to mistrust all adults is bad-meaning in reality the right thing to do is teach kids to mistrust all adults? Or is it suggesting the opposite, and there's an accident double-negative(kinda) in there?

If it's the first, I'd have to disagree with that. Kids should know to distrust most strangers. But not all adults. If they're lost and see a police officer they should absolutely go up to him to ask him for help. Or go into a store and find a worker to ask if they can call for their mom. Or if they're baseball coach comes over to say hi, that's okay and they're allowed to talk to him. Or trust that they can meet with their teacher without anything bad happening, or their family members.

What they should do is teach kids to avoid going places alone with adults (even some trusted ones) without your parents knowledge/permission. And that they should be the one initiating contact if they are lost, with someone clearly marked as an employee of wherever they are, not the random guy who asks "are you lost? Come with me". But there is a very big line between "all adults shouldn't be trusted" and "be careful around strangers".

LOL. I really screwed that up.

It was talking about the myth of Stranger Danger. The gist being that teaching kids to mistrust all adults is actually a terrible idea, and that we should instead be teaching them to differentiate between adults who can be trusted and those who cannot. She also mentioned that, as is the case with sexual assault, most of the crimes involving the kids are done by people known and trusted by the kids and often also by the parents. Relatives, family friends, etc...

As a side note, I read your last paragraph and kept thinking about John Mulaney's stand up segment on stranger danger and how Detective J.J. Bittenbinder emphasized never being taken to a SECONDARY LOCATION.