Martial Arts Is Not Religion, An Instructor Is Not A God

[PhotonGuy]

Martial arts is not a religion and should not be used as such. I dislike it when people mix religion with the martial arts and try to push it on their students but worst of all is when an instructor demands that their students worship them like they're a god.

An instructor should be respected as any instructor should be but they should not be worshipped as if they're a god. An instructor is not a god. If I found myself in a martial arts school where the instructor was worshipped as if they're a god I would run to the nearest exit.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ok.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Martial arts is not a religion and should not be used as such. I dislike it when people mix religion with the martial arts and try to push it on their students but worst of all is when an instructor demands that their students worship them like they're a god.

An instructor should be respected as any instructor should be but they should not be worshipped as if they're a god. An instructor is not a god. If I found myself in a martial arts school where the instructor was worshipped as if they're a god I would run to the nearest exit.

Obviously, you're not an instructor

On a more serious note, my first instructor for 10 years or so was more than just a sensei. His early core students were middle and high school, then college guys, many without dads. The dojo was a special place for us and besides being Sensei, he was like the cool uncle. We kind of grew up under his wing. He was physically very formidable, yet humble and soft spoken, very approachable, comfortable with his power, not having to flaunt it. He was one of the karate pioneers in Southern California, respected by high ranking peers.

He taught us things other than just karate. A great role model in many respects. He taught us yin and yang, how to score with women (at the time, his most important lessons), basic business practices, how to live simply and in balanced harmony...but he never preached. He had our respect, but not the military kind. It was the kind freely given just because it came naturally. His ego did not demand, or even ask for it.

He was no god, but a special man and friend to us, which was even better - god never helped me get to third base. R I P, Sensei.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Martial arts is not a religion and should not be used as such. I dislike it when people mix religion with the martial arts and try to push it on their students but worst of all is when an instructor demands that their students worship them like they're a god.

An instructor should be respected as any instructor should be but they should not be worshipped as if they're a god. An instructor is not a god. If I found myself in a martial arts school where the instructor was worshipped as if they're a god I would run to the nearest exit.

I've yet to see one worshipped as a god, so I suspect there's some hyperbole involved in your statement.

Do you mean to refer to those who are seen as the sole authority and always right, by dint of being "The Instructor", and are never to be questioned?

 

[Buka]

I've yet to see one worshipped as a god, so I suspect there's some hyperbole involved in your statement.

Do you mean to refer to those who are seen as the sole authority and always right, by dint of being "The Instructor", and are never to be questioned?

Unfortunately, I have. This was some time ago at a few tournaments. Slick, Korean woman from Vermont who I only saw in all white outfits.

She would stand on a table with fifty to seventy of her brainwashed minions sitting on the floor around her while she preached to them. They would oss and bow like bobble heads, place their foreheads to the floor and oss some more.

Truly bizarre. They only came to a couple tournaments and never placed anywhere but last, I guess that’s why they stopped coming. I’ll see if I can dig up who she is and let you know.

 

[dvcochran]

Martial arts is not a religion and should not be used as such. I dislike it when people mix religion with the martial arts and try to push it on their students but worst of all is when an instructor demands that their students worship them like they're a god.

An instructor should be respected as any instructor should be but they should not be worshipped as if they're a god. An instructor is not a god. If I found myself in a martial arts school where the instructor was worshipped as if they're a god I would run to the nearest exit.

Agree, but I fault the student as much as the 'instructor'. I can't imagine it happens anymore. Most everything has been debunked.

 

[skribs]

I've yet to see one worshipped as a god, so I suspect there's some hyperbole involved in your statement.

Do you mean to refer to those who are seen as the sole authority and always right, by dint of being "The Instructor", and are never to be questioned?

His post reeks of "I saw something that made me need to rant."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Unfortunately, I have. This was some time ago at a few tournaments. Slick, Korean woman from Vermont who I only saw in all white outfits.

She would stand on a table with fifty to seventy of her brainwashed minions sitting on the floor around her while she preached to them. They would oss and bow like bobble heads, place their foreheads to the floor and oss some more.

Truly bizarre. They only came to a couple tournaments and never placed anywhere but last, I guess that’s why they stopped coming. I’ll see if I can dig up who she is and let you know.

I guess it happens. Wow.

 

[_Simon_]

Ok.

How daaaaaare you.... this post clearly belongs in one of the two "short posts" threads! Off topic much...

 

[hoshin1600]

They would oss and bow like bobble heads, place their foreheads to the floor and oss some more.

yeah but a lot of men do that anyway for women. lol

 

[hoshin1600]

Martial arts is not a religion and should not be used as such

i will take that as your opinion and disagree with the connotation of you being the universal arbiter of morality here. martial arts has been mixed with religion for a long time. i would guess all traditional Okinawan dojo have a Kamidana and clap two times to wake the spirits. there are also dojo that have a Butsudan, or Buddhist alter of sorts. what about the myth of martial arts originating from Bodhidharma to keep the monks awake during meditation and for health? there is also the complex philosophical structure of a warrior who can kill needing the grounding balance of morality to temper and justify the taking of life. how does a warrior deal with their own existential issue of facing death at every moment? war is hell, are you saying soldiers dont need a God when facing their inevitable death?
i would not be so fast to try and separate a religious framework and moral underpinning from a warrior art that teaches violence. maybe MMA or sport doesnt need religion but traditional warrior arts ,,,,,,well,,i would think twice about that. i would imagine there are countless soldiers who pray to Jesus before jumping into the fray of combat. what makes the east so different and morally repugnant to you?

however, instructors are not Gods,, true. but then, most westerners cannot comprehend the differences between eastern and western religion. the concept of a God in the sky who is all knowing and powerful was very strange to most eastern cultures for most of humanity. i would caution people on their own bias of looking at other cultures through the tinted lens of their own western religious structures.

simple answer is ,,, if you dont like the dojo dont join there. people tend to find exactly what they are looking for.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i will take that as your opinion and disagree with the connotation of you being the universal arbiter of morality here. martial arts has been mixed with religion for a long time. i would guess all traditional Okinawan dojo have a Kamidana and clap two times to wake the spirits. there are also dojo that have a Butsudan, or Buddhist alter of sorts. what about the myth of martial arts originating from Bodhidharma to keep the monks awake during meditation and for health? there is also the complex philosophical structure of a warrior who can kill needing the grounding balance of morality to temper and justify the taking of life. how does a warrior deal with their own existential issue of facing death at every moment? war is hell, are you saying soldiers dont need a God when facing their inevitable death?
i would not be so fast to try and separate a religious framework and moral underpinning from a warrior art that teaches violence. maybe MMA or sport doesnt need religion but traditional warrior arts ,,,,,,well,,i would think twice about that. i would imagine there are countless soldiers who pray to Jesus before jumping into the fray of combat. what makes the east so different and morally repugnant to you?

however, instructors are not Gods,, true. but then, most westerners cannot comprehend the differences between eastern and western religion. the concept of a God in the sky who is all knowing and powerful was very strange to most eastern cultures for most of humanity. i would caution people on their own bias of looking at other cultures through the tinted lens of their own western religious structures.

simple answer is ,,, if you dont like the dojo dont join there. people tend to find exactly what they are looking for.

I agree with your assertion that none of us gets to determine whether MA is a religion to someone. I disagree with the implicit premise that for MA to provide a moral compass and help with existential crisis, one needs religion. Philosophy fills that niche quite nicely, too.

 

[hoshin1600]

I agree with your assertion that none of us gets to determine whether MA is a religion to someone. I disagree with the implicit premise that for MA to provide a moral compass and help with existential crisis, one needs religion. Philosophy fills that niche quite nicely, too.

i didnt really mean to imply that MA today HAS to provide a compass, only that the two have been tangled for a long time and for good reason. i wouldnt throw out a baby and bathwater. . and i would question the eastern and western concepts on where religion ends and philosophy begins, i dont think that is a clear distinction. like i said eastern thought does not hold the concept of a GOD the same way westerners do.
but like i said if someone doesnt agree with the teachings of a dojo then dont go there.

but i digress, i believe, this is verging on the edge of terms of service here.

 

[hoshin1600]

i would also argue that all hierarchies are prone to tyranny of some sorts. we all know of teachers that have taken advantage of students in some form or fashion. the power dynamic lends itself to such. it doesnt have to have a religious component to it. which leads me to believe that what @PhotonGuy is really thinking and looking at is the power structure within hierarchies and how they can take advantage of students and less about philosophical belief systems.

 

[dvcochran]

i will take that as your opinion and disagree with the connotation of you being the universal arbiter of morality here. martial arts has been mixed with religion for a long time. i would guess all traditional Okinawan dojo have a Kamidana and clap two times to wake the spirits. there are also dojo that have a Butsudan, or Buddhist alter of sorts. what about the myth of martial arts originating from Bodhidharma to keep the monks awake during meditation and for health? there is also the complex philosophical structure of a warrior who can kill needing the grounding balance of morality to temper and justify the taking of life. how does a warrior deal with their own existential issue of facing death at every moment? war is hell, are you saying soldiers dont need a God when facing their inevitable death?
i would not be so fast to try and separate a religious framework and moral underpinning from a warrior art that teaches violence. maybe MMA or sport doesnt need religion but traditional warrior arts ,,,,,,well,,i would think twice about that. i would imagine there are countless soldiers who pray to Jesus before jumping into the fray of combat. what makes the east so different and morally repugnant to you?

however, instructors are not Gods,, true. but then, most westerners cannot comprehend the differences between eastern and western religion. the concept of a God in the sky who is all knowing and powerful was very strange to most eastern cultures for most of humanity. i would caution people on their own bias of looking at other cultures through the tinted lens of their own western religious structures.

simple answer is ,,, if you dont like the dojo dont join there. people tend to find exactly what they are looking for.

I agree for the most part, but that is not the way I read the OP. It is saying no Instructor is a god. That is quite different from what you are saying to me.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

The duality in this regard annoys me a bit. you find the dont question elders people, and always question people sort. Just do you, and dont do you at the same time. (because either way you are damned)

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

How daaaaaare you.... this post clearly belongs in one of the two "short posts" threads! Off topic much...

Yes.

 

[Steve]

I agree with your assertion that none of us gets to determine whether MA is a religion to someone. I disagree with the implicit premise that for MA to provide a moral compass and help with existential crisis, one needs religion. Philosophy fills that niche quite nicely, too.

Agreed. To many westerners, the idea of a Abrahamic god is also strange.

 

[drop bear]

i will take that as your opinion and disagree with the connotation of you being the universal arbiter of morality here. martial arts has been mixed with religion for a long time. i would guess all traditional Okinawan dojo have a Kamidana and clap two times to wake the spirits. there are also dojo that have a Butsudan, or Buddhist alter of sorts. what about the myth of martial arts originating from Bodhidharma to keep the monks awake during meditation and for health? there is also the complex philosophical structure of a warrior who can kill needing the grounding balance of morality to temper and justify the taking of life. how does a warrior deal with their own existential issue of facing death at every moment? war is hell, are you saying soldiers dont need a God when facing their inevitable death?
i would not be so fast to try and separate a religious framework and moral underpinning from a warrior art that teaches violence. maybe MMA or sport doesnt need religion but traditional warrior arts ,,,,,,well,,i would think twice about that. i would imagine there are countless soldiers who pray to Jesus before jumping into the fray of combat. what makes the east so different and morally repugnant to you?

however, instructors are not Gods,, true. but then, most westerners cannot comprehend the differences between eastern and western religion. the concept of a God in the sky who is all knowing and powerful was very strange to most eastern cultures for most of humanity. i would caution people on their own bias of looking at other cultures through the tinted lens of their own western religious structures.

simple answer is ,,, if you dont like the dojo dont join there. people tend to find exactly what they are looking for.

I would say a cult is in practical terms objectively a bad organization though.

There are a few basic bad practices in martial arts that could be argued away with personal choice that really should be universally frowned upon.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The teacher-students relation is a good thing. Some good tradition such as "侠 (Xia) - knight spirit" can be passed down from generation to generation this way.

I still remember when I was young, one day my long fist teacher said to all his students, "If you don't have a good reason and get into a fight, I'll beat you up after that. Also, if you have a good reason but you don't get into a fight, I'll still beat you up after that."

His 1st part is just "don't cause problem". His 2nd part was deeply rooted into my mind and that is willing to:

- fight and protect my love one,
- help the weak to fight against the strong,
- help the good to fight against the evil,
- maintain world peace,
- save the human civilization.
- ...

I believe, even in the normal school education, a normal school teacher will never teach me "侠 (Xia) - knight spirit" . IMO, MA teacher is an excellent bridge between the school teacher and the parents. He can fill in the missing part such as "侠 (Xia) - knight spirit" .