Saw my first real example of a TKD parent, and it wasn't pretty

mrt2

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Happened last night at the high belt testing at my TKD school. Brown belts, purple belts and green belts were testing, including quite a few children. I don't know if it was summer vacation or what, but it wasn't an especially strong group. After the test, instead of the usual belt ceremony and group picture, the head instructor thanked everybody for participating, and said those who passed would be awarded their new belts in class, and he would individually inform a small number of students who failed, and would be given an opportunity to re test the end of next week.

One Dad got right up in my teacher's face, accusing him of favoritism, or politics, or something. When my teacher tried to tell him why the boy failed (a number of things, but the most significant was, the boy forgot his yellow belt form, which isn't acceptable for a brown belt under any circumstances). But the Dad and the boy both started yelling at the teacher (I guess the boy forgot all that TKD stuff like Respect, Courtesy, Perseverance, and Self control, as well as a children's rule never to interrupt an adult conversation), and the whole thing ended with the Dad saying he was pulling his boy out of class and expected a refund for any advance fees paid.

My take is, man, these stage parents need to get a grip. It isn't fun to see your kid fail, but despite what some think, a belt promotion isn't a participation trophy. It is actually a good thing if your instructor doesn't promote everybody who shows up. That shows that if you do get promoted, it actually means something.
 
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mrt2

mrt2

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It happens. I've seen more than one parent take their little prodigy and leave after I assured them they wouldn't be getting a black belt at 9.

I realize all these kids is what keeps the doors open, so I suppose that is what a professional TKD teacher needs to deal with. And maybe these schools have themselves to blame for recruiting young kids. It stands to reason that parents get antsy wondering when TKD will turn their little genius into a killing machine, but the truth is, people come into any activity with different abilities. And especially younger students won't always have the concentration to bring their A game every time.
 

Mark Lynn

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Happened last night at the high belt testing at my TKD school. Brown belts, purple belts and green belts were testing, including quite a few children. I don't know if it was summer vacation or what, but it wasn't an especially strong group. After the test, instead of the usual belt ceremony and group picture, the head instructor thanked everybody for participating, and said those who passed would be awarded their new belts in class, and he would individually inform a small number of students who failed, and would be given an opportunity to re test the end of next week.

Was this a belt test only for the school, or was it several schools testing at your school like an organizational exam?

One Dad got right up in my teacher's face, accusing him of favoritism, or politics, or something. When my teacher tried to tell him why the boy failed (a number of things, but the most significant was, the boy forgot his yellow belt form, which isn't acceptable for a brown belt under any circumstances). But the Dad and the boy both started yelling at the teacher (I guess the boy forgot all that TKD stuff like Respect, Courtesy, Perseverance, and Self control, as well as a children's rule never to interrupt an adult conversation), and the whole thing ended with the Dad saying he was pulling his boy out of class and expected a refund for any advance fees paid.

First off the behavior of the boy and his dad is totally wrong, and I'd gladly have them leave after that. In fact it wouldn't be because the dad wanted to leave, it'd be because they were removed from the school and their money would be refunded. Make an example of them to everyone else; remain clam, polite, respectful, but make the point that you (not meaning the OP) are the chief instructor and that behavior is not tolerated and not approved of in his school and show them the door along with a fairly quick refund. You don't want families like that no matter how green their money is.

I disagree with forgetting the kata part though. In the big scheme of things on my exams, forgetting a kata much less a low kata isn't something I would flunk a student for. I mean if their higher forms looked good and you've seen the student perform the kata in class over and over again then they have a brain lock on the exam I don't it as a big deal. If the sparring was good, one steps, basics, etc. etc. were all good then it's obvious the student had a brain lock, then to me that wouldn't be an issue.

However if the other areas were suffering and they weren't really prepared for the exam then that might be the straw that brakes the camel's back.

My take is, man, these stage parents need to get a grip. It isn't fun to see your kid fail, but despite what some think, a belt promotion isn't a participation trophy. It is actually a good thing if your instructor doesn't promote everybody who shows up. That shows that if you do get promoted, it actually means something.

I get your point but rather than fail a student I just don't let them test. Like my last test (last week) I kept telling everyone about the upcoming exam and some corrected what I wanted and some were just to far behind and wouldn't be able to get ready in time. Finally I told the whole class I'm looking at these three students, the rest will have to wait until the next test in a couple of months. Sure enough one boy comes up to me afterwards and asks about testing I told him he wouldn't test this time but...... I would help him get ready for the next test if he put forth the effort. Since then he has been working harder so he can catch up to his sister who tested.

I realize all these kids is what keeps the doors open, so I suppose that is what a professional TKD teacher needs to deal with.

Any professional teacher/coach regardless of the activity sometimes has to deal with parents such as this kid's It's not just TKD. It can be other sports as well.

Thankfully I've never had to have this problem with any of my students parents.

And maybe these schools have themselves to blame for recruiting young kids. It stands to reason that parents get antsy wondering when TKD will turn their little genius into a killing machine, but the truth is, people come into any activity with different abilities.

I don't think the school's to blame for recruiting young kids. I think the schools (not necessarily this one but schools in general) to blame for possibly other things but not for teaching young kids. Young kids are the future of the arts it's how or what we teach them that is a problem.

However parents want to see their child progress, the student wants to progress, they both want approval from others and higher authorities. They want to belong, they want to feel special. Belt exams should do that to some degree. By passing the exam they see progress, they get approval from friends, family, and most importantly from their instructor as well. They passed a goal so they feel special.

So parents do want to see their kids progress, but in my experience it's not because they are "getting antsy wondering when TKD will turn their little genius into a killing machine".

Students do come into my school with all sorts of different abilities and goals, its up to me as the head instructor to help the student reach them.

And especially younger students won't always have the concentration to bring their A game every time.

True and that is why, my students earn their rank in class overall rather than a pass fail exam such as what you witnessed (or took art in).
 

Hanzou

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I failed my blue belt test in Shotokan when I was 10. Even though I didn't deserve the belt because I royally screwed up in multiple places, I was crushed for several days afterwards.

It also made me work harder and get my blue belt a few months later. These parents don't know the damage they're doing to their kids by not allowing them to experience failure.
 
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mrt2

mrt2

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Was this a belt test only for the school, or was it several schools testing at your school like an organizational exam?



First off the behavior of the boy and his dad is totally wrong, and I'd gladly have them leave after that. In fact it wouldn't be because the dad wanted to leave, it'd be because they were removed from the school and their money would be refunded. Make an example of them to everyone else; remain clam, polite, respectful, but make the point that you (not meaning the OP) are the chief instructor and that behavior is not tolerated and not approved of in his school and show them the door along with a fairly quick refund. You don't want families like that no matter how green their money is.

I disagree with forgetting the kata part though. In the big scheme of things on my exams, forgetting a kata much less a low kata isn't something I would flunk a student for. I mean if their higher forms looked good and you've seen the student perform the kata in class over and over again then they have a brain lock on the exam I don't it as a big deal. If the sparring was good, one steps, basics, etc. etc. were all good then it's obvious the student had a brain lock, then to me that wouldn't be an issue.

However if the other areas were suffering and they weren't really prepared for the exam then that might be the straw that brakes the camel's back.



I get your point but rather than fail a student I just don't let them test. Like my last test (last week) I kept telling everyone about the upcoming exam and some corrected what I wanted and some were just to far behind and wouldn't be able to get ready in time. Finally I told the whole class I'm looking at these three students, the rest will have to wait until the next test in a couple of months. Sure enough one boy comes up to me afterwards and asks about testing I told him he wouldn't test this time but...... I would help him get ready for the next test if he put forth the effort. Since then he has been working harder so he can catch up to his sister who tested.



Any professional teacher/coach regardless of the activity sometimes has to deal with parents such as this kid's It's not just TKD. It can be other sports as well.

Thankfully I've never had to have this problem with any of my students parents.



I don't think the school's to blame for recruiting young kids. I think the schools (not necessarily this one but schools in general) to blame for possibly other things but not for teaching young kids. Young kids are the future of the arts it's how or what we teach them that is a problem.

However parents want to see their child progress, the student wants to progress, they both want approval from others and higher authorities. They want to belong, they want to feel special. Belt exams should do that to some degree. By passing the exam they see progress, they get approval from friends, family, and most importantly from their instructor as well. They passed a goal so they feel special.

So parents do want to see their kids progress, but in my experience it's not because they are "getting antsy wondering when TKD will turn their little genius into a killing machine".

Students do come into my school with all sorts of different abilities and goals, its up to me as the head instructor to help the student reach them.



True and that is why, my students earn their rank in class overall rather than a pass fail exam such as what you witnessed (or took art in).
I actually agree with this. But it isn't my call.
 

Headhunter

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Ah you've got to love stupid parents who can't even spell martial arts thinking they know everything.

I have to say though the kids who failed can retest at the end of the next week? They're not going to learn much in a week
 

Hanzou

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Frankly, once that kid started yelling at the instructor for not getting a belt, I would have kicked him out of the school before his father pulled him out. That level of disrespect has no place in the training hall. Sadly though, I know a lot of instructors have to keep the lights on and put up with that nonsense.

Relson probably would have headbutted the dad and the kid.
 
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mrt2

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Ah you've got to love stupid parents who can't even spell martial arts thinking they know everything.

I have to say though the kids who failed can retest at the end of the next week? They're not going to learn much in a week
Well, if it was just a brain freeze, then a week of practice should be able to correct the problem. If the problem goes deeper, than maybe a couple of months or more might be needed.
 
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mrt2

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Frankly, once that kid started yelling at the instructor for not getting a belt, I would have kicked him out of the school before his father pulled him out. That level of disrespect has no place in the training hall. Sadly though, I know a lot of instructors have to keep the lights on and put up with that nonsense.

Relson probably would have headbutted the dad and the kid.
That sort of crap would not have happened 35 or 40 years ago.
 

Mark Lynn

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I failed my blue belt test in Shotokan when I was 10. Even though I didn't deserve the belt because I royally screwed up in multiple places, I was crushed for several days afterwards.

It also made me work harder and get my blue belt a few months later. These parents don't know the damage they're doing to their kids by not allowing them to experience failure.

I agree that parents not allowing their kids to experience failure is wrong.

Belt exams are different in my eyes. Granted I have a small school so I can conduct my exams on board I set up or by myself, meaning I don't have to run multi school exams. However I believe in making the students earn their belts in class and the test is more of a promotion than a test, like a piano recital (in a sense, for comparison),showing the family, friends, what the student has learned and what they can do.

In class the students fail constantly learning their techniques, over and over they fail, and they learn to deal with it and then they learn to succeed as they get better. This goes for kata, basics, etc. etc. as an instructor I know where my students ability is at and when they meet my standards then they test.

However not all students are the same, this became apparent to me as I started teaching and I got more students in who had special needs. I have students with all sorts of learning challenges, who face all sorts of challenges outside of my class of which I'm not aware of. I have students who have a hard time with any type of negative correction, I have students with attention problems, physical and balance issues, for me to try and fit everyone into the same mold I can't do.

So for me to fail a student that has put forth hard effort in class and overcome some huge obstacles in life, just to get to the point where they are in front of family and friends and then fail them because they screwed up on a kata, is wrong. Or as one child I had break down during the test because he saw another child walk in holding their father's hand (his dad was out of town on business a lot and gone that day) and it choked him up (he then freaked out every little kid on the exam and they all broke down weeping). That's just not me. If they can't pass the exam they won't be there. Parents know where I'm coming from and they understand about the different and difficult challenges these kids face, and they know if their child isn't testing they aren't ready.

In my experience the parents appreciate me with holding the students if they aren't ready, rather than putting them up in front of everyone to see them fail. My student who is trying to catch up to his sister is one such student. He has some learning challenges and physical issues, I've had to explain to him four times that he is not ready for the test (tomorrow will probably be #5 and Saturday #6 and so on), yet I tell him I'll help him get ready for the test and then during class I'll encourage him and show him some extra attention with this is what I want to see for you to test. This way he is proud of what he is doing and tries harder to please me so he can test. In the end there won't be a question of him passing cause I'll know what he went through to test.

However if any parent or child ever talked to me like that parent and child did in the OP's post they wouldn't be in my school.
 

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Mark Lynn - great posts, man!

As for the kid/dad - I'm of the midset that failures should be rare because an instructor should know his students well enough to not test them before he is fairly certain they are gonna str8up OWN IT out there. The flip side to that - I also think failure should be rare because the PARENT should also be training, sitting in on their kid's class, working with their kid at home, and know exactly where their kid is proficiency wise. Martial Artists raise better Martial Artists (imho). Too many parents want to drop the kid off and let someone else prepare them for surviving violence which..... is kinda THEIR job. Just sayin.

The behavior, albeit emotionally charged, is unacceptable. I like to hope that when I heard "I'm taking my kid out of your class" I could just smile and say "yes sir, you are" and not "heck, if I was you, I'd beat me up right now. You should totally do that!" :-D
 

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Feel so bad for the child.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Happened last night at the high belt testing at my TKD school. Brown belts, purple belts and green belts were testing, including quite a few children. I don't know if it was summer vacation or what, but it wasn't an especially strong group. After the test, instead of the usual belt ceremony and group picture, the head instructor thanked everybody for participating, and said those who passed would be awarded their new belts in class, and he would individually inform a small number of students who failed, and would be given an opportunity to re test the end of next week.

One Dad got right up in my teacher's face, accusing him of favoritism, or politics, or something. When my teacher tried to tell him why the boy failed (a number of things, but the most significant was, the boy forgot his yellow belt form, which isn't acceptable for a brown belt under any circumstances). But the Dad and the boy both started yelling at the teacher (I guess the boy forgot all that TKD stuff like Respect, Courtesy, Perseverance, and Self control, as well as a children's rule never to interrupt an adult conversation), and the whole thing ended with the Dad saying he was pulling his boy out of class and expected a refund for any advance fees paid.

My take is, man, these stage parents need to get a grip. It isn't fun to see your kid fail, but despite what some think, a belt promotion isn't a participation trophy. It is actually a good thing if your instructor doesn't promote everybody who shows up. That shows that if you do get promoted, it actually means something.
Im commenting to specifically disagree with one thing you stated: a children's role to never interrupt a grown ups conversation.

I don't like that word never. In an emergency, they need to know they can speak up. I also disagree with the sentiment. It teaches kids they are inferior because of their age (unless you also had a rule that grown ups shouldnt interrupt a childs comversation, but them id imagine the rule would just be "never interrupt people"). I would agree that they should be polite about it, but they have every right to make their opinion heard, especially in a conversation about them, like this one (and i would bet if the kid was supporting his instructor and trying to calm his dad down, you wouldnt have brought up that idea at all).
 

Buka

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Years ago I had a father come in to pick up his son. It was ten minutes before class ended. He was drunk, sat down on the bench and promptly lit up a cigarette.

The happy ending is the boy grew up to be a pretty well adjusted man.
 

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Wow. I've never, in my life, seen someone do that in a TKD school. Argue with the teacher about whether a student passed or not? And at brown belt, when presumably they've been at your school for at least, what, 1.5-3 years? That sounds like your school may have a problem with getting the families to buy into the school culture.
 

WaterGal

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Mark Lynn - great posts, man!

As for the kid/dad - I'm of the midset that failures should be rare because an instructor should know his students well enough to not test them before he is fairly certain they are gonna str8up OWN IT out there.

I think there's basically two mindsets about testing, which I've seen in different styles/schools. One is that you should set students up for success by only letting them test when they've demonstrated that they're ready and otherwise making them wait until next time. That way, the test is really just testing that they can perform under pressure, and lets the students demonstrate what they've learned to themselves, their parents and the other students. The other mindset is that learning to accept failure is part of growth, so all students should test regularly and each time a bunch of them will fail and that's okay and part of the learning process. I think both approaches have some validity to them, but I think the latter risks making the students feel bad about themselves and want to quit if it's not handled right. Which, it sounds like, is what happened in this case.
 

Buka

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Why? The child was mouthing off as well

Yes, I know. But it's because of the way he was raised, by an A-hole to BE an A-hole. Poor kid had no chance.
 

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