Promotion, Parents, Politics, OH MY!

[legacymaa]

Fellow School Owners:

We've had a few run ins with the whole "my child is entitled to this" and " why is child A getting to test but child B isn't?!" nonsense lately.

What is your approach to handling parents who threaten to pull their students out if they do not test on X date or get Y award/recognition?

I'm not in the business of giving away belts and I am certainly not in the business of humiliating kids by putting them up to test when they're clearly not ready. I've had group meetings with parents to explain how we try to have the kids sit at their ranks a little while so they really work on their katas and learn the requirements for the next belt thoroughly so they feel completely confident in their skills both in the form of practical application (real world) and for advancement to their Dan ranking before an impartial board of examiners.

 

[Ironbear24]

Parents are the worst thing ever when it comes to a kids training.

 

[Danny T]

What image does your school put forth as to the importance of testing and rank? If rank is put forth as being one of the most important aspect for training then you will probably have a lot of parents and students wanting to test or gain rank as soon as possible. If rank is but a part of the journey and is not important then there will probably less concern about it. Is your policy clearly stated and presented to all students (and parents)?

It seldom happens with us but it has happened. The way I handle it is, "Mom/Dad if in your profession martial art opinion feel your child is ready for testing then I will certainly yield to your greater expertise. The only concern I have is how are you going to handle with your child the disappointment and embarrassment your child will go through if he/she does not display the knowledge and skills to successfully met the requirements of this test at this time? We don't want to set your child up to come out feeling he/she failed..., do you want that? We are constantly evaluating our students and we invite students to test when we know they will be successful. We do this because we honestly feel one of our jobs is to strengthen your child's confidence and esteem by having them showcase their skills not to have them disappointed or embarrassed by having them do something as important as testing when they are not ready for it."

In all honesty we've had more parents (especially at the lower levels) feel if their child didn't perform perfectly then we 'gave' their child a pass on a test. These parents think we make it too easy to pass the test when their child had excellent performances for the level they are testing.

 

[Buka]

What is your approach to handling parents who threaten to pull their students out if they do not test on X date or get Y award/recognition?

I've always asked them to leave. In all cases word spread in a positive way.

 

[lklawson]

Fellow School Owners:

We've had a few run ins with the whole "my child is entitled to this" and " why is child A getting to test but child B isn't?!" nonsense lately.

What is your approach to handling parents who threaten to pull their students out if they do not test on X date or get Y award/recognition?

I'm not in the business of giving away belts and I am certainly not in the business of humiliating kids by putting them up to test when they're clearly not ready. I've had group meetings with parents to explain how we try to have the kids sit at their ranks a little while so they really work on their katas and learn the requirements for the next belt thoroughly so they feel completely confident in their skills both in the form of practical application (real world) and for advancement to their Dan ranking before an impartial board of examiners.

Never had a problem with it. If the kid wants to test, then tell him whether or not you think he's ready. If he's not ready but still insists, let him test. Use a specific testing form which grades each technique and requirement along with a total required passing score and notes about which, if any, segments of the test are required for passing (if he doesn't know the chokes but aces the rest of the test, he still fails). File it away, regardless of pass/fail. If the parents complain, then show them the test and explain that Little Johnny was advised not to test yet but that he insisted and show them which parts of the test he performed poorly on.

The parents may still throw a fit and leave but, well, life sucks and Martial Arts schools have a remarkably high turnover rate anyway.

If they stay, then they'll at least understand what is required of the student to grade for his next belt.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Andrew Green]

Have very clear and defined requirements, possibly including attendance requirements. If your requirements are something they can't see you're going to have trouble. But if you can say "in order to test you need at least 30 classes and your son has only attended 17" it's easier to explain.

 

[Dirty Dog]

We have rarely had this issue come up, in large part because kids NEVER test all that often. We're very clear up front that there are not going to be any 10 year old black belts in our program, and that it takes 6-8 years on average to earn 1st Dan.
On the rare occasion that it has come up, we've shown the parent WHY the child isn't ready to test.
We have ranks within ranks. Students line up in order of rank. Within a given belt rank, their seniority is determined by who got the belt first. But they can move up by challenging the person ahead of them. The people are given a mini-test and the winner becomes (or remains) the senior of the two.
If your little martial arts prodigy isn't one of the top at their rank, they're not testing. If they are, but there is a reason why we're not letting them test (behavior, for example) then odds are we're going to tell the parent long before it occurs to them to ask.
If the person one step ahead of them is testing, and they're not, we will tell the parent exactly what standard(s) they're not meeting. Standards are no secret. Every student is given a copy.
On the one occasion this issue arose in the last couple years, I pulled her child and the next senior student off with her and ran them through a mini test, filming them both with Coaches Eye. I then used the slow mo and frame by frame modes to show her side by side comparisons of the two. Things that were obvious deficiencies to us were not noticeable to her. After the side by side, she understood why he wasn't testing.
People who think tests are done based on the calendar are told plainly that we test by knowledge, not dates.
After that, if they choose to leave, then that's fine. We're obviously not the right school for them.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't run a school so I'm not the best source for such advice. However, if quality matters to you, I'd say let them take their kid and go, good riddance.

I'm also of the belief that martial arts is often not the best subject upon which to build a business, for just such reasons. But that's just me.

 

[Tez3]

Sadly this is an issue with any sport and activity children are involved in. My friend who runs a Cheer academy has this with parents who want their offspring to move up to the next group, most parents though just want their children to enjoy what they do and that's true of most parents everywhere. It's just the vocal few who spoil it and make you groan 'parents'! I've seen the pushy parents in martial arts, Cub Scouts, Guiding, Pony Club ( where we were offered twice what our pony was worth by a parent whose child had been beaten by our daughter in a gymkhana), swimming classes etc etc. I had a parent of a Cub Scout who was moaning her precious boy wasn't getting his badges quick enough, I told her she could buy all the badges if she wished but it would only be cheating her son of the experience of actually earning them. We've had parents of martial arts students wanting their child to get through the belts as soon as possible ( we don't do child black belts) so we told them to go buy the belts from a sports shop if they were that desperate, we'd carry on teaching and the kids would grade once a year as usual if ready for their next belt. We are a club though not a business, we have very few overheads.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Before sending people out the door, try a system of stripes for attendance; so, that when a parent asks why, you can show them the kid isn't even close to ranking. Secondly, you can break yellow belt into two or even several ranks. We bought camouflage belts and called it dragon belt, and the little kids never knew. Then you fill their belts up with attendance tape, and you can even throw a layer of tape across the layer of tape. After that belt is trashed, award them a yellow belt, and trash that belt too. You can then have a big ceremony for the half yellow have orange belt. The sky is the limit, here.

 

[lklawson]

I'm also of the belief that martial arts is often not the best subject upon which to build a business, for just such reasons. But that's just me.

Nah. It's perfectly fine to run martial arts as a business. The problem that you're referencing here is that of customer expectations. In Europe, particularly during Medieval and Renaissance, martial arts schools and professional instructors absolutely thrived. But they were teaching students how to fight and kill and the students knew that. They taught children and adults. Famous instructors were hired to teach the wealthy and their children. Challenge matches were "normal" and accepted, though there's some debate over exactly how common they were.

Even in post-Renaissance, Colonial and Industrial Revolution, Europe, martial arts schools and professional instructors thrived, again, for the same reasons with the same basic clientele. The number and type of students actually expanded with an increasingly large middle class and an increase in the popularity of English boxing and French Savate. The arts which were taught changed over the years, of course, but the paradigm remained the same: "We're teaching you how to fight."

But that is not as socially accepted today. Today parents are often aghast at the idea of teaching Little Johnny to fight. And the martial arts community doesn't do any favors to itself there either because it has, by and large, accepted that and promoted the idea that martial arts, at the core, isn't about fighting, per se. Instead the community has promoted the idea that martial arts, at the core, are about self discipline, self confidence, comradery, enlightenment, or some other touchy-feely new age-y thing. Yes, martial arts practice can be used to instill values and self discipline is a requirement for advancement in the arts. But when the community has sold their product as those things, that's what parents expect. But those things are hard to put metrics on. And humans LOVE metrics. The only metrics that most people understand in martial arts are belt grades. <sigh>

So, to sum up, it's about managing expectations. Make it clear to parents and students exactly what your product is. You're teaching a physical skill and in order to advance in this physical skill, certain benchmarks must be met. Then clearly document exactly what those benchmarks are.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[WaterGal]

I can't say we've had this problem. The kids will get upset sometimes if their friends get to test and they don't, but usually we can have a sit-down with them and their parents and explain to them whey they're not ready to test.

Sometimes if a kid isn't ready, the parents will be like "well if little Johnny practices a lot this week can you check him again and see if he's ready to test?". If the kid is close to ready, we'll go along with that, though usually when we check them again, they're still not ready. The parents are a little disappointed, but they'll accept that.

We have a had a few kids who didn't want to do the work and then would get upset that they couldn't get a new belt, and ended up quitting for that reason. My feeling about that is "good riddance".

Edit: We do have a... basically a review list of what's on each test available in the school. So if anybody questions why they can't test, we can show them what the problem is.

 

[Buka]

I always had long talks with parents when they signed up their kids. We had been around a while so most of them knew through other parents what was up, but I explained anyway. Told them that if their child asked about a test, anything about a test, it was an automatic six months longer than it would have been. No exceptions. I explained that they were not here to wear pretty belts, they were here to train Martial Arts, develop character, become ladies and gentlemen and learn contact fighting. Lots of contact fighting. I told them to expect nosebleeds, and if they were against nosebleeds, black eyes or contact fighting in general, this was not the place for their children. I asked them to come watch the kids spar before signing up their child. Most did. (and signed them up, anyway)

I told parents that their child would not be bullied here, no matter how introverted or shy they were, because the higher ranked kids, the stronger, more athletic kids all took the weaker ones under their wing and helped them every day. This was part of their requirements for advancement in rank. (worked well, too)

I also told them when there was test, their child was welcome to take the test even if they weren't qualified by enough time training - just for practice to see what it was like. I told them there wasn't any fees for testing. I also told them that one of our rules was "everybody flunks at least one test on their way up, whether they deserve to or not." I know that's not fair, but I don't care, life ain't fair, either. Same rules applied for adults. If any student didn't like the rules, there was a list by the door of every other dojo in the area. I always encouraged them to check them all out.

But there are some parents who turn into the "parents from hell". They usually start out as the parents who are there everyday, ostensibly to pick up their kids, but they start coming earlier every day, chatting with everyone and feeling at home. They tend to help out with everything, glad to do so. After years of them being around the dojo, I sometimes I felt like THEY felt as if they worked there. Those are the ones you have to watch out for. And it's always a mother as opposed to a father. I do not know why that is so, but it has been that way with everyone I know who runs a dojo, and that is a considerable number. And the one that suffers is the child, only the child. Damn shame.

I don't teach kids anymore, except for the occasional class. And a lot of what I said might not fly anymore, different people, different times. Some of my students who have gone on to teaching still use some of the methods, some do not. That is their prerogative, one they have earned.

 

[GiYu - Todd]

Fellow School Owners:

We've had a few run ins with the whole "my child is entitled to this" and " why is child A getting to test but child B isn't?!" nonsense lately.

What is your approach to handling parents who threaten to pull their students out if they do not test on X date or get Y award/recognition?

We had a parent about 6 months ago insist that her new white-belt child was the best student in class and wanted him to test for multiple ranks at once so he could skip ahead. We had several discussions attempting to convince her that he was just an average student (nice kid, but not that physically skilled), and likely wouldn't pass the higher tests, and that he should just relax and focus on developing his skills.

Further, she didn't like that we don't give black belts in the kid's class. Once our kids complete through brown belt, they are allowed (with parents permission) to transfer to the adult class as a green belt and continue their training with the adults through dan level. The basic movements are the same, but the "intent" in the adult class is much more intense (and realistic).

She eventually left and went to a competitor that offers a "guaranteed black belt" in only 12 months... for around $12,000.

Fortunately, we haven't had too many parents like that... or at least they left before their child started.

 

[Buka]

We had a parent about 6 months ago insist that her new white-belt child was the best student in class and wanted him to test for multiple ranks at once so he could skip ahead. We had several discussions attempting to convince her that he was just an average student (nice kid, but not that physically skilled), and likely wouldn't pass the higher tests, and that he should just relax and focus on developing his skills.

Further, she didn't like that we don't give black belts in the kid's class. Once our kids complete through brown belt, they are allowed (with parents permission) to transfer to the adult class as a green belt and continue their training with the adults through dan level. The basic movements are the same, but the "intent" in the adult class is much more intense (and realistic).

She eventually left and went to a competitor that offers a "guaranteed black belt" in only 12 months... for around $12,000.

Fortunately, we haven't had too many parents like that... or at least they left before their child started.

You know, I hate to say this, but if I could get about fifty of those parents to give me twelve grand for black belts I just might hand them out like candy. Hell, I might even gift wrap the suckers.

 

[Touch Of Death]

You know, I hate to say this, but if I could get about fifty of those parents to give me twelve grand for black belts I just might hand them out like candy. Hell, I might even gift wrap the suckers.

I have just purchased a fifth degree ranking from Master E. Bay.

 

[legacymaa]

Sifu Says...

Worth the read. My $.02 on the topic. Interesting post, Todd. My Sifu did the same thing if a student asked about promotion. Six more months minimum to the time you wait. Great policy! Let me know if I have a future in blog posting or if I better stick to using these hands for blocking. ;-)

 

[Buka]

Why wait for a baby black belt! Now, you, too, can be the proud mama of a second dan! And you don't even have to wait for the birth! Our new TNT (Third Nidan Trimester) program can be yours for the ridiculously low price of Six thousand dollars, plus tax. (five thousand cash, U.S. dollars only, please)

 

[legacymaa]

TNT... This was the first thing I saw upon opening my email and was not disappointed. Hahaha. That is brilliant!!!

 

[mograph]

The recommendation to grade on specific criteria fits with my experience teaching graphics at a college. With a specific grading rubric, grade challenges can be discussed calmly and specifically. Basically, if I follow the rubric, it's my backup in case of a challenge. "You did this well, but you needed to work on this."

I was never challenged, but that may have been because the rubric (expectations) was given to the student along with the assignment, and with the grade after marking. No "black box" here.

Now, this does limit my flexibility. In a dojo, I may think twice about such a tight rubric. "Character" (for example) might be hard to include on a MA rubric, and it might be an important criteria for grading, so YMMV.