Sai breaking sword

[Tez3]

I was tempted to reply to the Karate Jutsu thread but better not to encourage PG to post any more disinformation and butcher history in specific art forums. Please just stop trying to impress us with knowledge you don`t have, there is no need.

He needs 'Fortitude', first episode tonight....wow it was cold, made our bit of snow look like summer!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This weapon is designed to break sword.

 

[Chris Parker]

Was not sure how to articulate my thought on that one. Basically I mean certain points on the sword (if even possible) where one could perhaps damage the weapon beyond use.

Okay… while a sword will have structurally weaker areas, it doesn't have "pressure points"… but I get what you were meaning now.

I see. Well anyway, moving on from that, I don't see the sai being taught in that many martial arts schools and while I do think it would be a fun and interesting weapon to learn I don't see it as all that practical. Most dojos from what I've seen like to teach stick fighting since sticks are easy to find and knife fighting. Now as for sai vs sword, that would be interesting although which would win, I would think that would depend on whose using them.

Er… okay…

Look, here's the first thing. Sai are a weapon from Okinawa (there are similar weapons in a number of Indo-Chinese systems, for the record), so are associated with Ryukyu Kobudo… as a result, if the art being taught in the dojo you were at didn't teach Ryukyu Kobudo, there's no reason to expect to find sai being taught there. In other words, the vast majority of systems, not being Ryukyu Kobudo, would have no reason to teach a weapon not part of their art. I teach Japanese traditional arts… no sai there… I also train Kenjutsu… no sai… Iaido… no sai… Kyudo… no sai… modern RBSD-style self defence… no sai… I've trained in other Japanese Koryu systems… no sai… Aikido… no sai… Boxing… no sai… BJJ… no sai… TKD… no sai… I've got some experience and exposure to Wing Chun… no sai… one of my students also trains in Choi Lay Fut… no sai… I did a form of Karate years back… no sai… but we occasional delved into some Ryukyu Kobudo… sai! So, can I say that sai aren't being taught in many dojo? No, I can say that most dojo teach what their system is…

As far as practical, it's not meant to be a practical weapon in todays world… that's not why you train with it. Expecting practicality from such training is simply missing the entire point of the training in the first place. Most dojo teaching stick fighting? Again, that's found in some Aikido dojo, my Ninjutsu dojo, some Wing Chun kwoon… but how it's presented is quite different in each. And sometimes it's got nothing to do with "practicality"…

Sai vs sword? Yeah… that's not the real question…

Most of the dojos I've been to don't. I never said that most dojos don't teach them, just not the ones I've seen.

What arts are being taught in those dojo, though? That's the real question… otherwise it's like going to ten different classes of languages (French, Italian, German, Spanish, Russian, Mandarin, Vietnamese, English, Portuguese, and Swedish), then saying that not many classes teach Japanese.

I consider a weapon practical if its something that you're going to have with you in the first place. That being said, a weapon that you're either likely to be carrying with you or a weapon that is easy to find I consider more practical that weapons that don't fall into either of those categories. Therefore I consider sticks to be practical, they're easy to find, anything from broken chair legs to pool sticks to baseball bats, to tree branches, the list goes on. In some cases you might be carrying a stick like object such as an umbrella. Sais on the other hand I don't consider that practical because most people I know don't carry sais on a regular basis and its not something that you're likely to find otherwise.

Yeah… that's not the real way to determine practicality, of course… I mean… if we're looking at stick fighting, what's the intended opponent? What length stick? What weight? Is it a light stick used, lending itself to fast, whippy strikes, or a heavier, blunt force object?

Here's the thing… what you're talking about is simply whether or not you have access to a particular, specific tool… but the fact is that the training in sai can have principles that cross-over quite well to any of the sticks you're talking about… which can make the study "practical"… but, importantly, that's not why you train with them.

I once trained at this dojo that taught all sorts of weapons although the weapons they taught were of japanese and okinawan origin, they did not teach weapons from other cultures.

Yeah… this isn't feeling particularly good…

And yes they did teach the sai, of all the twenty plus martial arts schools that I've visited or trained at they were the only place that taught the sai.

But what arts were taught at the schools that didn't teach sai? Were they teaching systems that would have had you expect sai, or not?

Anyway, most of the weapons including the sai, they did not get too in depth with the training.

What do you know of sai training (outside of the one school you were visiting)? There's a reason I ask…

It was not like the sword, which they also taught of course, and which has entire art forms developed entirely to its use. The sai and lots of the other weapons they taught they more or less just taught as add ons to otherwise unarmed martial arts.

Traditionally speaking, no system teaches both sai and sword (other than modern created, eclectic arts)… those that do tend to be mongrel arts, trying to do everything they think a "martial art school" should cover, without any of the actual basis in the areas they're trying to teach. These schools are the ones whose videos have those of us with some experience cringing when we watch them…

Some of the martial arts styles taught at that place were Shorin Ryu, Aikido, and AikiJutsu and many of the weapons were taught as add ons.

Okay… Shorin Ryu does have some Kobudo aspects as part of it's teachings, so that's most likely where the use of sai comes from there… Aikido, depending on lineage, sometimes has Jo and sword, but neither are really the "use" of the weapons, more an application of the principles of Aiki expressed with those items (to "extend" the techniques, and monitor angles and so on)… "Aikijutsu", if we're dealing with Daito Ryu, gets complicated… if we're not dealing with Daito Ryu, it gets into very questionable areas…

The idea of having all of these under the one roof is rather odd as well, I have to say… and doesn't usually point to any depth in anything…

I have never seen a Aikido school or a Aikijutsu school that taught the Sai and if I did I would question their legitimacy

Absolutely.

 

[donald1]

iv practiced sai only for about a 2 or 3(at least 2 1/2) so my knowledge is quite lacking, but im curious to how they are doing this? are the striking the sword or maybe catching it with one of the prongs then breaking it? personally i dont think a sai can break a sword(just guessing, never practiced sword vs sai)

 

[Tez3]

A lot of things including Bokken and Bo can break a poorly forged sword. Poorly forged metal can also 'break' a Sai.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Well how about this, would this work?

 

[PhotonGuy]

I have never seen a Aikido school or a Aikijutsu school that taught the Sai and if I did I would question their legitimacy

The place that I know of that teaches the Sai, Aikido and Aikijutsu are just some of the arts they teach. They also teach Shorin Ryu, Kobujutsu, Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu, and Iaido.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well how about this, would this work?

Sure. In the extremely unrealistic and hyper-controlled setting they show. Otherwise? Not so much.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[Grenadier]

Well how about this, would this work?

This is a terrible video.

First, and foremost, look at the "quality" of the sai he's using... Those look like a junk pair that I've told many a student to simply send to the recycling center.

Next, look at his technique. When he inverts the sai, and claims that he can stick the point into sword wielder's neck, his wrist angle is at a terrible position, and has very little support to it. If anything, his other strikes lack support, and would be pretty weak.

Regarding the original question, as to whether or not a sai could catch a swung katana, trap and damage it, that's not going to be very practical. Someone swinging a katana in earnest, is going to generate quite a bit of force, and trying to catch a katana blade in the guard of the sai will result in that momentum being absorbed by something. Guess where that momentum is going to end up?

Imagine how would it feel having a steel guard of a sai rammed into the hand that you're using to hold it? That's also why it's not exactly a ideal thing to try to catch any large weapon with the guard of the sai.

 

[Grenadier]

I see. Well anyway, moving on from that, I don't see the sai being taught in that many martial arts schools

Saijutsu is usually taught with Okinawan Kobudo. You're not going to find many schools that teach Kobudo, and the ones that do will primarily focus more on bojustu. Furthermore, it's not going to be easy to find a decent saijutsu instructor.

and while I do think it would be a fun and interesting weapon to learn I don't see it as all that practical.

This is why it's usually best to study a system first, and then see how practical it can be. It's no different than the person who claims that Tae Kwon Do is impractical because of all of the kicking, or claiming that Boxing is impractical because of all of the punching.

Most dojos from what I've seen like to teach stick fighting since sticks are easy to find and knife fighting.

Sticks are easy to find, but how many well-balanced rokushaku will you randomly find on the street? How many well-crafted Kali / Escrima sticks will you randomly find? Finding a 5' long, 3/4" diameter broomstick made out of a light weight wood isn't the same thing as finding a well-balanced, 1" diameter bo made of hickory.

Studying a weapons system means that you're learning how to use the weapon itself, and not a much different would-be facsimile. Think about it this way... If you learned a Japanese sword art, such as Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, would that make it "practical" because you can find inexpensive machete's in any Wal-Mart?

 

[Dirty Dog]

This is a terrible video.

Oh yeah... neither one of them knows how to do something as basic as hold their weapon properly. The guy with the katana thinks it's a baseball bat.

 

[Transk53]

This weapon is designed to break sword.

What is that made off. Silver coloured steel?

 

[Xue Sheng]

The place that I know of that teaches the Sai, Aikido and Aikijutsu are just some of the arts they teach. They also teach Shorin Ryu, Kobujutsu, Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu, and Iaido.

Unless they have multiple teachers that teach individual styles I would question their legitimacy as well

 

[Mephisto]

Well how about this, would this work?

Finally! A video that shows me what to do when I'm being choked whike holding both of my sai! I've been in this situation so many times.

Seriously PG? Why are you posting this crap? Do you really think these guys are legitimate authority on weapons?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Finally! A video that shows me what to do when I'm being choked whike holding both of my sai! I've been in this situation so many times.

Seriously PG? Why are you posting this crap? Do you really think these guys are legitimate authority on weapons?

I meant the part where he traps the sword with one sai and then attempts to break the sword with the other sai. The choking part you can skip.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Unless they have multiple teachers that teach individual styles I would question their legitimacy as well

I could post a link to their website if you want.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I meant the part where he traps the sword with one sai and then attempts to break the sword with the other sai. The choking part you can skip.

You can ignore that part too, unless you're hopelessly mired in delusion and fantasy.
TMNT is a fun kids show. It's not a particularly good source for martial arts info.

 

[Mephisto]

I meant the part where he traps the sword with one sai and then attempts to break the sword with the other sai. The choking part you can skip.

My sarcasm still stands. All of the video is crap. The sai sword breaking technique cannot be martial arts "gold" while the double sai choke defense complete crap. Is this video is why you started the thread? Next time link the video first, that way we can realize the kind of delusion were dealing with.

Edit: haha dirty dog just said the same thing whike I was typing this

 

[Xue Sheng]

I could post a link to their website if you want.

Not necessary, I'm not looking for a school

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What is that made off. Silver coloured steel?

It usually is made from solid steel. Sometime it's square shape.