I heard some people say that the sai, a fork like weapon which is perhaps best known through the character of Raphael from Ninja Turtles, has been known to snap sword blades. I don't know if this would be possible, a sai can be used to catch a sword blade but as for snapping it, from what I know sword blades were really strong as well as flexible and to catch a sword blade in a sai it would most likely become a tug of war but it would not result in a broken sword blade. I do know that in the middle ages in Europe they did have this weapon called the sword breaker which was also used to catch and in some cases break sword blades, but in the case of the blade breaking, that would be if it was one of those skinny fencing swords, not the broadswords used by the knights or for that matter a sword like the katana.
Sai breaking sword
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
- Start date
Probably no. The wielder would have to rely on pressure points, I can't see how catching a sword would be natural. It would be an act of lucky genius, but only a fleeting moment. Would probably get chopped to pieces imho.
I'm curious where you heard this? I've heard similar stories passed around whem I was a kid but I'd be surprised if there were any actual documented accounts. You'll have to do some research on this one and look for a verifiable historical account. If you can link some info on the European "sword breaker" i'd like to check it out. I've never heard of such a weapon in Europe. I've seen a few eastern martial arts movies "Crouching Tiger..." and one with Jet Li that had weapons that appeared to be designed to break a sword blade, but those were movies so the historical accuracy is questionable. I'd imagine they draw from some historical basis though.
There are all kind of odd kung fu weapons designed for various purposes. Some were battlefield weapons and others were more specialized to duels. As for the sai, I'd be surprised to learn it was actually used on a battlefield or against a sword. It seems many of the more odd traditional weapons are simply household and work objects used for self defense. I know forms exist for some of these weapons but i'm curious how much sophisticated use a weapon like the sai actually saw. We may just over romanticize it.
Here's one possible theory; It would be like plumbers carrying around piece of lead pipe in his truck and using it if he were attacked. Or construction workers using a hammer for self defense. Hundreds of years from now after pipes and hammers are no longer used, a martial arts enthusiast might be familiar with stories of pipes or hammers being used for self defense and so he picks one up and makes up a form, next thing you know hammers and pipes are remembered as a weapon rather than a tool that was more often than not used for work. Over time the martial artists training the hypothetical "hammer/pipe forms" will have to make their own hammers/pipes to use in the form as no one else uses or makes them anymore and the design of a hammer transitions to something more elegant and menacing than it actually was.
- Thread Starter
- #5
Lots of silliness here...
Best known from the ninja turtles? Seriously. If you ever wonder why so many people respond to your posts with variations of
, take a look at the statement above.Let's start with the "skinny fencing swords"... fencing means sparring with swords. People fence with rapiers. They fence with broadswords. They fence with katanas. The super flexy epee/foil/saber used in modern Olympic style fencing evolved from the small sword (well out of the middles ages you referenced) and were never used for fighting. The closest thing would be the rapier. The rapier is 1-1.5" (and some examples are even wider) across, with a diamond or flattened diamond cross section. This is extremely strong.
The European "sword breaker" (which is about as accurate as calling a fuller a "blood groove") came in at least two forms. One looked like a bowie knife with deep, narrow serrations on the spine. The other was a sort of scissors arrangement. Could you trap a blade in these, binding it long enough to create an opening to attack with your rapier? Sure. I could see that happening. Could you break the sword? No. It's not happening. There's this thing called leverage that's required to break the blade, and you simply do not have it.
Good to have my theory confirmed. I've read a bit about nunchaku and other weapons and my earlier thoughts seem to fit what I've found.Yes quite right
Interesting, if it's such a common sidearm I'm surprised I've never heard of it.
Lots of silliness here...
Best known from the ninja turtles? Seriously. If you ever wonder why so many people respond to your posts with variations of
Let's start with the "skinny fencing swords"... fencing means sparring with swords. People fence with rapiers. They fence with broadswords. They fence with katanas. The super flexy epee/foil/saber used in modern Olympic style fencing evolved from the small sword (well out of the middles ages you referenced) and were never used for fighting. The closest thing would be the rapier. The rapier is 1-1.5" (and some examples are even wider) across, with a diamond or flattened diamond cross section. This is extremely strong.
The European "sword breaker" (which is about as accurate as calling a fuller a "blood groove") came in at least two forms. One looked like a bowie knife with deep, narrow serrations on the spine. The other was a sort of scissors arrangement. Could you trap a blade in these, binding it long enough to create an opening to attack with your rapier? Sure. I could see that happening. Could you break the sword? No. It's not happening. There's this thing called leverage that's required to break the blade, and you simply do not have it.
This is the impression I get, it's got to be very hard to break a sword in the heat of battle. Still if you break the sword you've got the warrior to deal with who may draw another weapon. Trapping the weapon as dirty dog mentioned above makes more sense.
These were "off hand" weapons, primarily (as far as I know) in the later period, when the rapier would have been the prefered sword. They functioned as a dagger, so could be used to parry, cut and stab, and if you got lucky enough to trap the blade, you could certainly apply enough leverage to bind the blade and shift it off line, thus creating an opening for your own sword. The bowie style pictured was probably the least effective, (but easiest to make) because it could only trap the blade with a backhand parry, and only move the blade aside in the same direction. The "scissors" style had both edges spring out, creating a "W" shape. The wider openings in the "W" would make it easier to entrap a blade, as well as allowing it to be moved in any direction.
I still don't see them doing any actual breaking, though.
- Thread Starter
- #9
Among the general pubic sais are perhaps best known from ninja turtles. I don't think I need to point out the fact that the ninja turtles are pretend but aside from that, most people who are not involved in martial arts, and even lots of people who are involved in martial arts might not know what a sai is. It is not one of the more well known weapons in martial arts such as swords, nunchucks, or throwing stars. Most people however, whether they're into martial arts or not, do know about ninja turtles and although they are pretend, the weapons the characters use are based on real weapons and one of the characters uses sais which, I shouldn't have to point this out either, is a real weapon. Therefore for most people, who have seen sais before, there is a good chance that they saw it in ninja turtles. Another words, its an example of a certain object being used in popular media and in this case its an object that most people will probably not be familiar with except in that particular popular media since the sai is not a commonly known weapon. That is what I was getting at when I brought up the ninja turtles but you no doubt just saw my mention of ninja turtles and decided not to take me seriously. Its too bad I should have to explain this but perhaps with you such an explanation is necessary.Best known from the ninja turtles? Seriously. If you ever wonder why so many people respond to your posts with variations of
And besides, posting stuff that people don't take seriously is not as bad as posting stuff that offends people.
In case you didn't notice, you posted this on MartialTalk. You know, a place where Martial Artists gather. Not the general public. If you were to make your little post on a forum frequented by 9 year olds, it would make perfect sense. Here, it's purely idiotic.
Posting idiocy can be offensive too.
- Thread Starter
- #11
Even lots of people who do train in the martial arts might not know what a sai is, as I said, it is not one of the more commonly known martial arts weapons.
And in case you didn't notice, as I said before, I was pointing out how in this case a martial arts weapon is used in popular media. Most people whether they're 9 years old or not are familiar with the ninja turtles. Even if they don't watch it anymore, which I stopped watching a long time ago, if I were to explain to somebody what a sai is I would mention ninja turtles because if they've ever seen a sai before that's probably where they've seen it, even if they were only 9 when they saw it. Popular media is an easy way to make a reference to something that somebody might not be familiar with.
There is nothing idiotic about mentioning how a certain object is best known through certain popular media.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hmm… honestly, it's a bit of a reach… is it possible? Maybe. Common practice? Doubtful.
Well, let's look at the make-up of a Japanese blade… they were (and are) constructed with a mixture of different carbon-content steels, with a high-carbon steel for the edge, and a lower carbon steel for the back/body. This allowed a very sharp edge, while retaining flexibility (and the ability to absorb the impact force). But the thing to realise about this structural construction is that it makes a Japanese sword very strong (against impact) straight on… but that's not how you break a sword. You do it from the side…
And, really, that's how this was supposed to work. You wouldn't get into a tug of war, you'd apply a very sharp twist once you had the blade trapped. It was this side-ways torque against the weaker (non-reinforced) angle of the blade that caused enough pressure to snap it… but you really needed to get the angle, the position on the blade, and more correct for it to work. Most likely, you might bend the blade, or jolt it out of someone's hand.
And in Japan, there was a weapon called a "hachiwari", or "kabutowari", sometimes also called a "katanawari". "Wari" has a meaning of "to break", with "hachi" and "kabuto" meaning "helmet", and "katana" obviously meaning sword… as a result, this weapon is a "helmet breaker", or a "sword breaker". But the name wasn't literal… it was meant to imply that such a weapon could be used to defeat an armed and armoured warrior.
I'm not sure what you mean by having to rely on pressure points… the tines of a sai are quite wide apart, catching a sword blade as it comes down isn't that far out of the realms of possibility… a jutte has a much narrower tine (kagi), and was designed specifically to allow catching a blade.
Was not sure how to articulate my thought on that one. Basically I mean certain points on the sword (if even possible) where one could perhaps damage the weapon beyond use.
- Thread Starter
- #15
So instead of a good, intelligent response all I get is Captain Picard AND Commander Riker. You know something, your posts remind me a bit of Sensei John Kreese, is that how you teach? But as I posted once before, I shouldn't take your posts seriously and I shouldn't let them get to me, its just not worth it.
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- Thread Starter
- #16
That's what I thought.
That makes more sense. I've also heard of people being able to disarm swordsmen with whips but I don't know how possible that would be in real life, seems like something you would only see in the movies.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Well, speaking of odd traditional weapons.... and hammers being remembered as a weapon rather than a tool
Chinese meteor hammer
Chinese Melon Hammers
sorry, could not resist, just had to throw that out there
- Thread Starter
- #18
There's also the medieval war hammer which derived from the carpenter's hammer. So, hammers have already been made into weapons, although most people don't think of them first and foremost as such.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
This is a forum of martial artists I think it's reasonable to assume everyone knows what a Sai is. Not to mention anyone who doesn't know can just ask. I wouldnt say its better to post stuff that isn't taken seriously over things they offend people. Name calling and insults are unproductive but the sharing of unpopular opinions is all part of discussion. You shouldnt be afraid to offend people if you can explain your stance on a matter.
Yeah I was just using a hammer as a modern day example. It's entirely possible the war hammer preceded the hammers use as a tool. The idea of a rock on a stick as a bludgeon is pretty primitive and humans have been killing each other just as long as we've been building. So who knows which came first.
