what sword manufactures

Manny

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I want to buy a japenese sword, don't know at this moment if a real katana (sharp blade) for cutting or an iaito (dull blade).

Maybe I will learn some iaido because kenjutsu it's not available at this time.

I would like to buy a good sword but not an expencive one, my budget is not so high and I want something functional or entry level sword and have no experience in swords what manufeacturers can you advise me to check?

Manny
 

Carol

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Try some classes with a bokken and then see what you think before making the investment.
 

Senjojutsu

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Not belittling members here and their knowledge - but two places with much more extensive discussions on vendors/purchasing criteria:

SwordForum.com - Japanese Swordsmanship Arts forum:

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16

Kendo World - Iaido forum:

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/3-Iaido

Starting out with purchasing a live blade, maybe you should think about that one some more. :duh:

Even the JSA traditions that "do it that way and train only with shinkens" in reality - when you read the fine story print - maybe not with their Day One students.
 

Featherstone

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Yeah, I wouldn't make the first purchase the sharp purchase. It's like that first new knife, however a cut from the knife shouldn't be fatal, where as the sword.. welll I've seen a few oops by people. Look into Iato, they aren't sharp. Find an instructor if possible, not videos or a book.
casiberia/hanwei has some good deals and they make a decent sword if you are dead set on blades, otherwise go wood! hehe

Good luck
 

pgsmith

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Hey Manny,
I'm afraid you're trying to find a simple answer to a very involved and complicated question. It is nowhere near as simple as this or that manufacturer is what you want. There are a large number of questions that make one manufacturer preferable to another. Questions such as what are you going to use it for? If it's for daily practice, then an iaito is what you're looking for. If you're planning on getting a better iaito in a year or so, then an inexpensive Chinese made steel iaito may fit your need. If you're planning on taking a trip to Japan to practice, or are planning on keeping your iaito for several years, then a more expensive but much better made Japanese manufactured iaito is what you need. There are quite a number of other questions that go into deciding on a user sword, which is why you'll invariably hear the response "ask your sensei" since he presumably knows a lot more than you about swords, and about what you will need for your practice.

The only alternative is to spend a good amount of time educating yourself about the various uses of swords as far as training is concerned, and the pros and cons of the various manufaturers. Then you can hopefully learn enough to make your own decisions based upon what you expect to do with your sword. The fora that John gave you links for are a good place to start.

Good luck,
 

Ken Morgan

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Didn't we already go through all this with Manny a while back? Hasn't he looked into all this already? Isn't he a senior, well ranked MA in another art already? I think we hashed all this out already, hence my brief reply above. IMHO I think he knows what he's getting himself into.
 

pgsmith

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Didn't we already go through all this with Manny a while back?
Heck I don't know! Most of the time, I can't even remember what I had for breakfast, never mind a while ago. :)
 
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Manny

Manny

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Hey Manny,
I'm afraid you're trying to find a simple answer to a very involved and complicated question. It is nowhere near as simple as this or that manufacturer is what you want. There are a large number of questions that make one manufacturer preferable to another. Questions such as what are you going to use it for? If it's for daily practice, then an iaito is what you're looking for. If you're planning on getting a better iaito in a year or so, then an inexpensive Chinese made steel iaito may fit your need. If you're planning on taking a trip to Japan to practice, or are planning on keeping your iaito for several years, then a more expensive but much better made Japanese manufactured iaito is what you need. There are quite a number of other questions that go into deciding on a user sword, which is why you'll invariably hear the response "ask your sensei" since he presumably knows a lot more than you about swords, and about what you will need for your practice.

The only alternative is to spend a good amount of time educating yourself about the various uses of swords as far as training is concerned, and the pros and cons of the various manufaturers. Then you can hopefully learn enough to make your own decisions based upon what you expect to do with your sword. The fora that John gave you links for are a good place to start.

Good luck,

Thank you ery much for you reply, you are such a gentelman. Yes I am a second dan black belt in TKD, yes I am a senior instructor,also I am a orange belt in kenpo karate, however responding to Mr. Ken Morgan I have not any experience in kobudo or the use of weapons, well talking about firearms I have and practiced with shotgun,pistols and rifles but talking about swords I don't know a thing that's why I come here with my questions.

Sincer I saw the tv show Shogun ( a few weeks ago) by James Clavel I got enamored with the katana, I would like to learn kenjutsu or iaido, right now I don't have the time but will in a near future however I love the katana.

It's very dificult to get one in my country because I have to have a permition from the army to import the katana and the army simply does not give this permition but only walthy men, however there are some folks who import the katanas (don't ask me how but they do) and want to buy a katana.

Offcourse a good japanese katana cost so much for my wallte but think I can but a decent one to work with it and to feel like a shogun. So that's why I am asking about not so expencive ones, I don't wana a el cheapo katana, I want a decent one.

I don't think for the moment to get involved in tamishegiri (forgive my spelling) but maybe a katana for the show and for practicing iaido or kenjutsu will be a nice thing to have.

Manny
 

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Manny, in all honesty, what you are asking for does not exist in the sword world. Cheap and quality are mutually exclusive concepts.

You get swords that are poor quality and expensive but you will see a unicorn before you see a good sword for a cheap price.

Of course it all depends on what you want it for. If you just want to 'role play' being a 'samurai' then any old non-sharp piece of tat will do. If you are looking to enter into study of a JSA then you will need to buy the best you can afford and not a live-blade either.

If you stick with it then a live-blade can come later {a couple of years down the line}.

For a guide-line to price, my iaito was £450 (I got it a couple of hundred pounds cheaper because Tozando had a blade the right size in stock from a canceled order). You can get 'starter' iaito from Tozando for much less but the quality difference is quite marked.

As I always say when this question comes up, if you are serious, buy the best you can afford. It will save you money in the long run as you will not end up buying two or three swords you 'grow out of'.
 

Bruno@MT

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Personally, I'd say don't buy a real iaito now, and definitely not a katana.
But a wallhanger if you want to look at a sword without training with it.

Don't use a real iaito or katana without proper training because one of the following will happen:
1) you will destroy the blade.
2) you will injure yourself or someone else
3) you will learn crappy technique, of the level we see regularly on youtube and laugh about because it sucks SO bad it is beyond redemption.

I don't want to talk negatively, but your experience in TKD or Karate or other arts gives you absolutely no basis from which to work a sword. Of course you could buy an iaito for the looks and then learn to use it later on with an instructor, but don't try to learn sword by yourself.
 

Chris Parker

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Yeah, I'm with Bruno et al here. If you are interested in learning Kenjutsu, Iaido, or similar, that is your first step: learn the art.

That means find an instructor, and follow their advice. And you will probably find that the advice is to use a bokken first, and then later get into other weapons if that system uses them. For example, a number of sword systems only ever use bokken, others will use fukuro shinai (a shinai covered with leather), and others will use a combination of different tools for different parts of their syllabus.

If you are looking to buy a sword first, you are going about it backwards. You really don't want to buy a sword, outlay a few hundred dollars on it, only to have an instructor tell you that it's either a) not used in that school, or b) not to be used in his classes! And so you know, I inspect every weapon that students bring in from outside before it is allowed to be used, and that's just the wooden ones!

First step is to find an instructor. If you don't have one, you can't learn swordsmanship. So there's no point getting a sword unless you just want to look at it.
 
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Manny

Manny

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I don't want to talk negatively, but your experience in TKD or Karate or other arts gives you absolutely no basis from which to work a sword. Of course you could buy an iaito for the looks and then learn to use it later on with an instructor, but don't try to learn sword by yourself.

You are right, in fact I wrote in this post that I have not experience in kobudo and sword that's why I am here trying to understand certain things about the japanese sword.

I want to have japanese sword classes not right now but in a near future I think the art of iaido and kenjutsu are formidable.

Manny
 

pgsmith

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It will save you money in the long run as you will not end up buying two or three swords you 'grow out of'.
But it gives you such a good excuse to buy a new sword! :)
 

jonpalombi

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You are right, in fact I wrote in this post that I have not experience in kobudo and sword that's why I am here trying to understand certain things about the japanese sword.

I want to have japanese sword classes not right now but in a near future I think the art of iaido and kenjutsu are formidable.

Manny

Buenos Dias Manny,

I agree with much of what has been posted in this thread, starting with Ken's initial statement. Since you have yet to enroll in formal classes... this must come further down the road. Be very careful of self-training, however, as this can lead to many problems. Study is great and the more you read and watch, the more you will understand. Just be wary of developing bad habits and learning incorrect movements or assimilating incorrect postures, as they are a ***** to unlearn, later on.

Carol made a sensible suggestion, about starting with a good quality bokken. If you do end up studying kenjutsu, you will need to have one, anyway. Stay away form the bargain bokken from martial arts suppliers, though. They are poorly cut and balanced. Also, they are made of inferior Chinese oak, not Japanese oak (which has been selected by an expert). Better than nothing, of course but you will only end up upgrading for one that is properly crafted, after some point. I would recommend shiro kashi (Japanese white oak) or sunuke (a beautiful light-chocolate Japanese hard wood). I have a Japanese-made sunuke bokken that is an absolute dream!!!

Most of my bokuto are made by Sensei Kim Taylor of Sei Do Kai in Canada and also, from Kingfisher Woodworks LLC in Vermont. Sensei Taylor makes bokken from an assortment of wonderful exotic hardwoods (as well as oak and hickory). I own 18 of the SDK-style aikido bokken and have 2 more on the way!

Yeah, I fully admit it... I have bokken fever!!! Brad, from Kingfisher, is quite the mad scientist and his products are working tools, that are also incredible works of art. Kingfisher only uses Appalachian hickory of the highest grades. I own 6 now and a wonderful "enhanced" hickory jo. Check out these links:

http://www.tozandoshop.com/BOKKEN_s/17.htm

http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_bokuto_singles.html

http://kingfisherwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=kf&Category_Code=stb

Hasta luego, Jon Palombi
 
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Daniel Sullivan

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Be very careful of self-training, however, as this can lead to many problems. Study is great and the more you read and watch, the more you will understand. Just be wary of developing bad habits and learning incorrect movements or assimilating incorrect postures, as they are a ***** to unlearn, later on.

I had a student who came to me after years of self training and fully expected to excel. And he could have too, but he became frustrated that his years of backyard practice would all have to be unlearned and correct technique learned. Too much work for him and he, for whatever reason, has a ridiculously strong emotional investement in his years of backyard training with wallhangars.

Daniel.
 

Grenadier

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The bad news:

There aren't going to be any under $100.00 swords out there that would be safe to use, period. Those swords are going to have rat tail tangs that are poorly welded onto the blade, resulting in a potential sharp missile that could fly out, should the mekugi (pegs) break or slip out.

The good news:

You can find good blades for cutting purposes, at a reasonable price. Paul Chen's "Practical Plus" line of katanas are well-respected, along with Kris Cutlery's blades, as well as Cheness. These should run from about 250-400, depending on what model, accessories, etc.

At this point, it's not a smart thing to buy a really nice sword, such as a Bugei, Howard Clark, etc. No need to use a 1200+ blade in a way that could get it ruined by an inexperienced cutter, until the skills progress to the point where you will know exactly what you need.

Once you're ready to use a live blade, print out the specs on several of the swords from the various manufacturers, and ask your sensei which one would be the best fit.
 

pgsmith

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Paul Chen's "Practical Plus" line of katanas are well-respected, along with Kris Cutlery's blades, as well as Cheness.
I've got to make a comment about this. Not to be picky, but just to clarify for others that may be reading this thread. Hanwei's "practical" line, Kris Cutlery's, and Cheness blades are tolerated if they happen to be one that is well built, and after being thoroughly checked by the instructor. I know of no legitimate instructor of the Japanese sword arts that "respects" those in the least. They are cheaply made tools wherein many corners are cut in order to reach the low price point. While many of them can be considered suitable for occassional use, many of the same model are unsuitable for any actual use. Problems that I've found in the last couple of years are blades not aligned with the tsuka (hard to see for someone not very familiar with swords), cracked tsuka, loose tsuka, cracked kashira, loose fuchi, warped saya.

My personal opinion is that I would much rather have students stick with using dojo swords, inexpensive ones that I've purchased and thoroughly gone over, while saving for a decent sword. If they go out and buy their own inexpensive sword, then I've got to find the time to take it all apart and give it a good going over, and they take the chance of it being unsuitable for use and then they're stuck with an expensive wall decoration.
 

Ken Morgan

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Agreed, I wouldn’t allow a Chen sword to be used in the dojo, I’ve yet to see one good enough for iaido practice, and if it’s not good enough for iaido practice, you can be damn sure it’s not good enough for cutting practice.

Cutting is the most overrated MA skill out there. Give me a $10 machete and 30 minutes and I can have an absolute beginner cutting multiple mats with ease. After a half dozen cuts, and having to clean up a few thousand pieces of tatami from the dojo floor, it’s really not fun anymore.

All that being said, if you practice sword, after some “real” training with a “real” teacher, use a “good” blade and do some cutting. If anything it will prove to you that the techniques you learned in class actually do work. Honestly, it’s a friggn three foot long razor blade, did you really expect anything different???
 

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