Right to bear firearms only?

[geezer]

Hey all you Second Amendment/"right to bear arms" fanatics. What is the current state of the right to bear arms other than firearms for self-defense? In my state, any legal resident (except convicted felons without their rights restored) can carry firearms, openly or concealed, without a permit, in most places without any permit required.

I recently returned from a martial arts seminar in Texas, and discovered that they have fairly unrestrictive gun laws as well. But in there, as in my state, weapons other thatn firearms are often illegal to carry ...depending on a variety of differing state, county and local regulations. In fact the host instructor at the Texas seminar told me of an acquaintance who was taken into custody for having an "ASP" collapsable baton visible on the back seat of his car, apparently in violation of a local county ordinance. On the other hand if it had been a gun, he would have been OK since he had the necessary concealed carry permit.

Curious. So batons, knives and martial arts weapons carried for self defense may be restricted without controversy or court challenge, while semi-automatic firearms are totally protected? How does that jibe with the Constitution? I'm sure that at the time of the Revolutionaty war, clubs and bladed weapons were an important back-up to a musket that was slow to re-load. But today such weapons are are not legit for defense? What gives ...where's the logic there? And if there's isn't a constitutional right to carry a club or Ka-Bar, is there really a right to bear arms at all? Just wondering.

 

[elder999]

Hey all you Second Amendment/"right to bear arms" fanatics. What is the current state of the right to bear arms other than firearms for self-defense? In my state, any legal resident (except convicted felons without their rights restored) can carry firearms, openly or concealed, without a permit, in most places without any permit required.

I recently returned from a martial arts seminar in Texas, and discovered that they have fairly unrestrictive gun laws as well. But in there, as in my state, weapons other thatn firearms are often illegal to carry ...depending on a variety of differing state, county and local regulations. In fact the host instructor at the Texas seminar told me of an acquaintance who was taken into custody for having an "ASP" collapsable baton visible on the back seat of his car, apparently in violation of a local county ordinance. On the other hand if it had been a gun, he would have been OK since he had the necessary concealed carry permit.

Curious. So batons, knives and martial arts weapons carried for self defense may be restricted without controversy or court challenge, while semi-automatic firearms are totally protected? How does that jibe with the Constitution? I'm sure that at the time of the Revolutionaty war, clubs and bladed weapons were an important back-up to a musket that was slow to re-load. But today such weapons are are not legit for defense? What gives ...where's the logic there? And if there's isn't a constitutional right to carry a club or Ka-Bar, is there really a right to bear arms at all? Just wondering.

I actually alluded to this in my pen thread, and was going to post further about it. Here in New Mexico, I can openly carry a 3' sword, a pistol, a machete, a baton,or a shotgun with two bandeliers of shells-though any of those just might get me some law enforcement attnetion, except maybe the pistol. I also have a concealed carry permit, but it doesn't allow me to carry a knife or anything besides pistols of specific calibers concealed.

 

[jks9199]

There are actually no provisions in Virginia law to provide a permit for carrying any concealed weapon from the list on 18.2-308 or related code sections other than a gun. (I looked into it once, years ago. Still would kind of like to see someone push the idea of a CCW for a knife...)

One comment: possession of lots of those items, with a few exceptions like martial arts training, is illegal in and of itself... so you probably won't convince a judge to give you permit for a switchblade or brass knuckles, for example.

By the way -- I'll rep the first person to post and tell me a particular glaringly not covered item from that code section...

 

[elder999]

By the way -- I'll rep the first person to post and tell me a particular glaringly not covered item from that code section...

Taser/stun-gun.

Crossbow pistol ( :lol: )

Blowgun ( :lfao: )

Just plain darts.

 

[Takai]

While this comes from the perspective of "assault weapons" (I hate using that PC phrase!) I think that it gives a really nice view on the 2nd Amendment.

http://communities.washingtontimes....ism-institute/2012/jul/28/ban-assault-rifles/

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Curious. So batons, knives and martial arts weapons carried for self defense may be restricted without controversy or court challenge, while semi-automatic firearms are totally protected? How does that jibe with the Constitution? I'm sure that at the time of the Revolutionaty war, clubs and bladed weapons were an important back-up to a musket that was slow to re-load. But today such weapons are are not legit for defense? What gives ...where's the logic there? And if there's isn't a constitutional right to carry a club or Ka-Bar, is there really a right to bear arms at all? Just wondering.

I would not automatically presume that there is not a Constitutional right to bear 'arms' of all sorts, not just firearms.

However, there are several issues here that may influence this.

In no particular order:

* People and groups challenge laws for constitutionality. The NRA is one such group, and it has consistently championed the right to bear firearms, not swords or clubs or other self-defense weapons. Why? I dunno, but I'd guess that it's because they do not care. What group has challenged state or local nunchacku laws up to the Supreme Court? No challenge, no finding.

* The SCOTUS considers many things when they examine laws for constitutionality. One of those things is the original meaning of the law or amendment when it was passed by Congress. We have the Federalist papers and various other means of determining that when the Framers of the Bill of Rights said 'arms', they meant firearms specifically. It would appear that at the time of the 2nd Amendment, historically 'arms' mean guns and not swords. So there's that.

So I would not necessarily say that there isn't a constitutional right to carry a Ka-Bar. There may be such a right. But no Ka-Bar Lover Association has arisen to challenge laws against carrying such things. You could always start one if it is something you feel strongly about.

 

[geezer]

I would not automatically presume that there is not a Constitutional right to bear 'arms' of all sorts, not just firearms...

...There may be such a right. But no Ka-Bar Lover Association has arisen to challenge laws against carrying such things. You could always start one if it is something you feel strongly about.

That pretty well sums it up from my perspective as well. And no, I don't feel strongly enough about this issue to make it into a personal crusade. I was just pointing out the inconsistency of protecting semi-automatic rifles for defense while outlawing (in certain jurisdictions) simple clubs and knives.

There are plenty of other glaring inconsistencies in the law. Just the way it is. Back in my younger days, I used to get annoyed, feeling that inconsistent and illogical application of the law just breeds contempt for the law. Nowadays, I just shrug and get on with my life.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

That pretty well sums it up from my perspective as well. And no, I don't feel strongly enough about this issue to make it into a personal crusade. I was just pointing out the inconsistency of protecting semi-automatic rifles for defense while outlawing (in certain jurisdictions) simple clubs and knives.

There are plenty of other glaring inconsistencies in the law. Just the way it is. Back in my younger days, I used to get annoyed, feeling that inconsistent and illogical application of the law just breeds contempt for the law. Nowadays, I just shrug and get on with my life.

It is not the job of the government to ensure that it observes all our rights. It is the job of the citizens to ensure that the government does not encroach illegally on those rights. We, not them. Waiting for things to become fair is probably not going to work out very well, I'd opine.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Good points Bill.

In Illinois we currently do not have a concealed carry law. I do believe we are the only state in the Union that doesn't allow this now (though please correct me if I am wrong). Also Shuriken are illegal for some reason, though I've never hear of anyone enforcing that law as I do believe no one actually cares about them. State Law here also allows an individual to carry a knife that has a blade of less than 4 inches and may be spring assited but not spring loaded.

 

[blindsage]

I've been saying this for years. I understand what Bill is saying, but I still find it extremely hypocritical that gun rights folks have such a hard on for protecting those rights, but not for any other type of weapon, and I especially find it strange on a martial arts website that uber gun rights folks leave it at that. It leads me to believe even more that most gun rights activist aren't that way because of any philosophical bent, but more because they just like their guns, and all the 2nd amendment argument stuff is mostly a convenient intellectual argument rather than any really deeply held belief.

 

[rickster]

US citizens have the "right" for "free speech", however, just like arms, this right, or freedom, is confined within responsibility and the laws enforcing that responsibility.

Using "free speech", we have the right to speak out, but we are confined to the responsibility and law. For example we cannot yell "fire", in a public domain if there isn't one.

Firearm owners do not like government to instill more restrictions, as each restriction is passed, leaves pre-empt for yet another restriction

Other weapons cannot be included with firearm laws because such weapons are more readily available than firearms. (I know, firearms can be obtained easy illegally, but there is certain restrictions-laws, that most abide by)

Lawmakers tend to believe that there are more restrictions in obtaining a firearm than that of other weapons- that of which are more commonly found

CCP courses and such are on the up-rise as this allows private citizens to have their gun while under responsible guidelines

The "right" to bear arms, is not merely a right, but more of a responsibility and a freedom. More likely, a "responsible freedom"

 

[blindsage]

Other weapons cannot be included with firearm laws because such weapons are more readily available than firearms. (I know, firearms can be obtained easy illegally, but there is certain restrictions-laws, that most abide by)

Lawmakers tend to believe that there are more restrictions in obtaining a firearm than that of other weapons- that of which are more commonly found

You mean like nunchuks and swords. Yup, I find them laying around all over the place.

 

[Blindside]

I've been saying this for years. I understand what Bill is saying, but I still find it extremely hypocritical that gun rights folks have such a hard on for protecting those rights, but not for any other type of weapon, and I especially find it strange on a martial arts website that uber gun rights folks leave it at that. It leads me to believe even more that most gun rights activist aren't that way because of any philosophical bent, but more because they just like their guns, and all the 2nd amendment argument stuff is mostly a convenient intellectual argument rather than any really deeply held belief.

I suspect it has to do with how much infringement on the subject there is, firearms have historically had quite a bit of control on what is possible to own/carry etc, hence the advocacy of an organization. I can open carry a sword here in Washington, heck you can do it in Seattle which is more restrictive than the state on many carry issues. There are organizations that do argue for the right to have knives and other bladed items, like the AKTI (American Knife and Tool Institute) and Knife Rights. I haven't heard of a "sword rights" organization, probably because there is little perceived need.

I think you are correct when you say that many 2nd amendment advocates are more about guns than other weapons, but the NRA has certainly shown support for protection of other weapons as well, particularly knives.

 

[rickster]

You mean like nunchuks and swords. Yup, I find them laying around all over the place.

No silly...although nunchakus and swords can be obtained easier than firearms

 

[Aiki Lee]

So, if I'm following this right, some of you live in States or other areas where you can walk around with swords and other weapons and not be arrested for it? I live in the wrong State.

 

[Blindside]

So, if I'm following this right, some of you live in States or other areas where you can walk around with swords and other weapons and not be arrested for it? I live in the wrong State.

Just like we can open carry a firearm, but you can expect to have a nice conversation with an officer.

And yes, you do.

 

[rickster]

So, if I'm following this right, some of you live in States or other areas where you can walk around with swords and other weapons and not be arrested for it? I live in the wrong State.

Clarify what you mean by "walk around"

 

[pgsmith]

I live in the wrong State.

No, you're fine where you are. There's too many people coming down to Texas as it is!
I walk around with a sword on a lot. Sometimes I walk around with a shotgun. Of course, I live in an unincorporated area, and my nearest neighbor is about a quarter mile away across the creek.

 

[Carol]

So, if I'm following this right, some of you live in States or other areas where you can walk around with swords and other weapons and not be arrested for it? I live in the wrong State.

Yup. New Hampshire recently reacted all of their knife carry laws. Doesn't matter what you carry, how long the blade is, double edged, single edged, switchblade, sword cane, all legal. Open carry of firearms is legal too, in fact one fellow (William Kostric) near me has earned his 15 minutes of fame by open carrying in a VERY noticeable thigh holster when the President was in town, carrying a sign about watering the tree of liberty. He was watched closely by the local constqbulry...and even talked to on more than one occason, but never arrested. On another occasion, he open carried a sidearm in a more discreet holster (without the signage) during another presidential visit and stood 20 or 30 feet from the motorcade...and no one cared.

 

[geezer]

Yup. New Hampshire recently reacted all of their knife carry laws. Doesn't matter what you carry, how long the blade is, double edged, single edged, switchblade, sword cane, all legal. Open carry of firearms is legal too, in fact one fellow (William Kostric) near me has earned his 15 minutes of fame by open carrying in a VERY noticeable thigh holster when the President was in town, carrying a sign about watering the tree of liberty. He was watched closely by the local constqbulry...and even talked to on more than one occason, but never arrested. On another occasion, he open carried a sidearm in a more discreet holster (without the signage) during another presidential visit and stood 20 or 30 feet from the motorcade...and no one cared.

Carrying a gun near the presidential motorcade? I'm sure the people who matter cared plenty. Back in 2009 a man with a military style semi-automatic rifle slung over his shoulder showed up to protest outside the venue where the President was speaking here in Phoenix. He refused to leave and was allowed to stay since he was apparently correct in he assertion that he was violating no law. Being the first guy to pull a stunt like that he garnered a lot of media attention. Nowadays, sure he'd get less public attention, but I'm equally sure that in all such cases involving high profile political figures these guys are being watched like a hawk by the LEOs charged with security, especially after the Gabby Giffords shooting. And that's as it should be.

Now that bit about NH retracting restrictive laws against knives and swords is very interesting. Always did like NH. Not the cold winters or the blackflies that nearly ate me alive one June on Cannon mountain about 40 years ago, but in general it's a very cool place.