My First ITF Class

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I am travelling for work as I often do, this time in Mont Tremblant Quebec, and attended my first ITF class. It was more or less as I expected, and made for a nice change.

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First, after changing into track pants (since I only have a WTF dobok) I talked with the Master and he asked if I knew the difference between ITF and WTF styles. That's a ton of arguments here on this site about that question, but my response was that ITF felt the influence of General Choi, and WTF(style!) clubs felt the influence of tournament sparring. He talked of punches to the head in ITF, and was very respectful of WTF, with no talk of "real" tkd, so that was nice.

In terms of the class, there was a lot of why I would say is boxing style punching. We did punching drills culminating with jab, cross, hook, duck, hook, then turning kick. I was glad to finally do some practical punching, which we don't do in my current WTF-style club. (As an aside, my current club has a sign outside that says "kickboxing, self-defence, taekwondo" and one teenager commented that he joined in part for the kickboxing aspect. Fast forward 1 year later, we have done a few punches from the waist in a horse-riding stance in 1 class out of maybe 50, and that's it.).

Unfortunately, I somehow pulled a calf muscle. I went to spring up on a turning kick and felt a pop in my calf. Now it is tight and sore. I've never had that before. The only thing I can think of is that I was poorly hydrated, as my workplace this week lacks a bathroom, so I don't drink too much water.

One final aspect I liked is the practical kiup / breathing during a punch or kick. In this class, like at most ITF clubs I think, it was a focussed breath out like in boxing. The exagerated kiup in WTF competitions is one of my pet peeves. IMO, a kiup longer than say 1/2 second is about showboating, especially when it's accompanied by a raised hand.

In closing I really liked the ITF class and club, and I think it is more suited to me than WTF. With that said, I also like the challenge of pracitising more kicking, as we do at the WTF club I attend. All in all, I think ITF suits me well, but will continue along in WTF as it's the path I am already on.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Alright then. Is there anything you wish to discuss, or did you just want to let us in on this?

 

[tshadowchaser]

Are you planning on visiting more Schools or styles as you travel? If so will you be staying within the TKD systems or do you plan on visiting other styles?
Happy to hear you enjoyed your time at that school

 

[TrueJim]

He talked of punches to the head in ITF, and was very respectful of WTF, with no talk of "real" tkd, so that was nice.

The head of our school is a Kukkiwon 7th Dan, and when he's teaching he likes to spend a few minutes talking about taekwondo in general (often during our cool-down stretches). A couple months ago he mentioned General Choi in his lecture, and he talked about how much respect he and the other instructors at our school (the others of whom are quite young...ex-K-Tigers in their mid 20s) have for General Choi. I agree, it was very nice to hear that kind of "Hey, it's all taekwondo" kind of sentiment, especially from younger Koreans who are very thoroughly immersed in the Kukkiwon-style.

(As an aside: I think I may have already mentioned this in a previous thread: at a local 1,000+ competitor local tournament recently, our school won 3 of the 6 tournament championships. Two tournament-champs in forms and 1 in sparring. At least when it comes to Kukkiwon-style tournaments, it seems you gotta hand it to K-Tigers: they know how to teach!)

In terms of the class, there was a lot of what I would say is boxing style punching. We did punching drills culminating with jab, cross, hook, duck, hook, then turning kick.

Were these done in the air, or against targets? It sounds like fun, but I think it'd be a lot more fun against a heavy bag!

(As an aside, my current club has a sign outside that says "kickboxing, self-defence, taekwondo" and one teenager commented that he joined in part for the kickboxing aspect. Fast forward 1 year later, we have done a few punches from the waist in a horse-riding stance in 1 class out of maybe 50, and that's it.).

Out of curiosity, has the teenager stuck around?

We do punching drills from horse-riding stance all the time at our school, though candidly I think the reason is only 50% to improve our punches, and 50% to strengthen our thighs. I'm kinda thick sometimes, so it took me a while to realize that the punching drills were as much about strengthening our legs as they were about punching. Our instructors keep us in those stances for a long time.

In closing I really liked the ITF class and club, and I think it is more suited to me than WTF. With that said, I also like the challenge of practicing more kicking, as we do at the WTF club I attend. All in all, I think ITF suits me well, but will continue along in WTF as it's the path I am already on.

You know, as I understand it, in theory this is the idea of ATA schools: there's more emphasis on kicking than at ITF, and more emphasis on self-defense than at Kukkiwon/WTF. So in theory, ATA schools should be a very cool style of taekwondo; perfect for you, from what you describe! From things I've heard though, the problem is that the quality of instruction at ATA schools can be very uneven (some ATA schools are great, others not so much, supposedly). Of course that will be true in any style, but ATA has the reputation at least of having that problem more than other styles.

Here in the suburbs of northern Virginia, you can't swing a cat without hitting a taekwondo school. In my neighborhood, we have one ITF-style school, 3 Kukkiwon/WTF-style schools, and 1 ATA-style school. Maybe one of these days I ought to try a trial lesson at some of these other schools!

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Alright then. Is there anything you wish to discuss, or did you just want to let us in on this?

Discuss or ignore as you wish

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Are you planning on visiting more Schools or styles as you travel? If so will you be staying within the TKD systems or do you plan on visiting other styles?

I will try to visit other schools as I travel. I am trying to go to WTF schools when I can, but I branch out from there in my googling. I had wanted to visit a Karate school in a small PEI town, as that was the only traditional MA school I found, but the school closed for a snow storm.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Visiting other schools and other styles is a fun and instructive thing. We have a local group which, basically, tries to get together instructors and senior students from as many different schools as possible on a regular basis. It might be a sparring night, a technique night, or whatever, but it is always interesting.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

The head of our school is a Kukkiwon 7th Dan, and when he's teaching he likes to spend a few minutes talking about taekwondo in general (often during our cool-down stretches). A couple months ago he mentioned General Choi in his lecture, and he talked about how much respect he and the other instructors at our school (the others of whom are quite young...ex-K-Tigers in their mid 20s) have for General Choi.

At my previous school, the Korean Kwonjanim had young TKD graduates from Korea stay for 6 months - 1 year and teach. I asked one if they ever talk about General Choi in his studies, or whether he is just a footnote in their books. He commented that I must really know TKD to know about him, which I inferred meant he's a footnote in the TKD books at Seoul. As an aside, at the ITF club yesterday, there was a picture of General Choi, along with the TKD tenets (in French) and thanks to this site, I felt quite comfortable being in the class.

Were these done in the air, or against targets? It sounds like fun, but I think it'd be a lot more fun against a heavy bag!

Hand mitts. The ducking of punches was new to me. I had practised hooks from you tube videos but never ducking / slipping. It's definitely a weak point for me.

Out of curiosity, has the teenager stuck around?

He did. I think the school is very close for him.

We do punching drills from horse-riding stance all the time at our school, though candidly I think the reason is only 50% to improve our punches, and 50% to strengthen our thighs.

My previous school's KJN was a 2 time WTF world champion. He said tournament fighting is 90%kicks, while street is 90% hands. I thought that it was interesting that even a guy who was really good with his feet feels that punches are incredibly simple, quick, and non-committed, and hence effective.

Maybe one of these days I ought to try a trial lesson at some of these other schools!

The only problem with trying a local school is the "so are you going to join". Travelling lets me try a school that I wouldn't try if it were in my city.

 

[Jaeimseu]

At the Kukkiwon FIC in 2013 General Choi was discussed a bit by the lecturer on taekwondo history. He acknowledged General Choi, but talked about how he was a controversial figure. The topic came up in reference to the "tenets of taekwondo."

 

[Tez3]

Hand mitts. The ducking of punches was new to me. I had practised hooks from you tube videos but never ducking / slipping. It's definitely a weak point for me.

There's nothing like being smacked round the head by one when you fail to duck properly!

Thank you for the OP, I enjoy reading about other styles, how they train and what they do. It widens my perspective about martial arts as a whole.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

There's nothing like being smacked round the head by one when you fail to duck properly!

Good point, and yes I did duck once right INTO the punch.

I realise in this week's class that the style you practice in develops habits that you may not realise are suitable for your rule set, but perhaps not for other rule sets.

In my first WTF sparring as a white belt, I ducked an instructor's turning kick and he told me not to do it, because while it may work with the other low-level club members, the higher level opponents will kick me to the head even more easily the 2nd time I try ducking. So I got in the habit of never ducking - only moving or blocking. So it's good to expand the horizons!

 

[Tez3]

Good point, and yes I did duck once right INTO the punch.

There's the other one of course where you are holding the pads and your partner hits them, the pad goes straight into your face because you didn't push as they punched or if you did they hit it too hard...well that's your story anyway lol.

 

[Laplace_demon]

At the Kukkiwon FIC in 2013 General Choi was discussed a bit by the lecturer on taekwondo history. He acknowledged General Choi, but talked about how he was a controversial figure. The topic came up in reference to the "tenets of taekwondo."

Which is one of the reasons the ITF and KKW should not be inclusive and that a shared name (TKD) was unfortunate. One (ITF) credits General Choi as the founder and creator, while the other does not. Therefore the twos philosophy and account of history is radically different. There is simply no good reason for them both to be named TKD, especially given that the KKW expanded and developed techniques further, uniquely seperating themselves on technical grounds as well.

 

[Drose427]

Which is one of the reasons the ITF and KKW should not be inclusive and that a shared name (TKD) was unfortunate. One (ITF) credits General Choi as the founder and creator, while the other does not. Therefore the twos philosophy and account of history is radically different. There is simply no good reason for them both to be named TKD, especially given that the KKW expanded and developed techniques further, uniquely seperating themselves on technical grounds as well.

It isnt just those 2, technically none of the 9 kwans were doing the same thing.

They all had different backgrounds, the only commonality really was their styles were blends of korean and japanese martial arts.

We took the name TKD like many other martial arts schools in korea, but our lineage has very little to do with choi or the founders of Kukki.

Our Shorin influence is present in our our forms (we dont even do shotokan forms), and we do none of the ITF and Kukki forms that im aware of.

As jumbled up as TKD lineages can be because of all the slapping the TKD name onto schools, technically speaking since TKD was founded by several gentlemen, they varying historys arent necessarily wrong. Theyre just dofferent sides of the same coin.

If you wanna get technical, this isnt inclusive to TKD. Many Karate and Kung Fu schools are radically different but still get labeled the same.

Heck, people use the term "Jiu Jitu" to referbto BJJ and JJJ and theyre radically different as well.

At least when the 9 kwans chose to do a general label, knowing they were radically different, they had good reason for it.

 

[Laplace_demon]

If you wanna get technical, this isnt inclusive to TKD. Many Karate and Kung Fu schools are radically different but still get labeled the same.

Well that's no problem for me, since I don't stop my terminological and philosophical objections at the TKD unification.

 

[Chrisoro]

Here in Norway, we have this chain of gyms teaching Kukki-style TKD(and registering their dan ranks with the Kukkiwon), with a curriculum that includes both the traditional aspects of Kukki style TKD(the official kukki poomsae, sparring and training for WTF competition, etc), but also boxing style punches, movement and sparring(but with kicks ofcourse, so this kind of sparring is somewhat more akin to WAKO kickboxing), some escapes and counters on the ground, and a few of the more practical standing wrist and arm-locks from hapkido. I don't train in this chain, allthough I have considered it several times, and might train there in the future. Sounds like something that would fit OP perfectly.

Even though I started out in Kukki-style TKD in 1992, I considered joining an ITF club after a few years of Kukki, because of their sparring ruleset, and I even visited several in an attempt to see if it was something that would fit me, but I was scared away by how almost all the ITF representatives I met seemingly used any oportunity they got to bash what they called "WTF-style", saying that everything that I had previously learned was useless or "watered down" (even though I more than held my own in sparring once I figured out the differences in distancing), and presenting an extremely simplified view of the process of how TKD was developed, and ofcourse, without fail presented Choi as the hero who single handidly created TKD, but was buttfucked by the thieves in WTF, who for no reason other than jealousy for Choi's enormous genious stole everything, and tried to destroy Chois life. No mention of any controversy on Choi's part, or of the work of any of the other representatives of the other Kwans. This was in Norway in the nineties, so things might have gotten better now, or may even be different in other places(as OP's post indicate) but in either case, I ended up doing kickboxing and then amateur boxing instead(and a whole lot of other arts even later down the road), and don't think I have lost out on much when it comes to hands.


The way almost all ITF practitioners I have ever met in real life and actuallly talked to, solely credits Gen. Choi for Taekwondo(yes, everything, not just the name, the ITF forms and curriculum, and some of the work spreading it, but everything, even going as far as saying that everything related to Kukki-TKD was stolen from or inspired by Choi), and completely disregards the work of all the other pioneers of TKD, the KTA, and the huge influence of Karate on anything TKD, feels too much like a cult for me, and as a result, I don't see myself EVER training ITF. I have a huge problem with anything resembling cults of personality, and the constant need to put down Kukki-style, indicates to me a very unhealthy organisational culture fueled by a bunch of complexes. Other than that, I think the ITF sparring ruleset is great, though I'm not sold on the sinewave motion that some ITF clubs use whe doing forms.

 

[Chrisoro]

Which is one of the reasons the ITF and KKW should not be inclusive and that a shared name (TKD) was unfortunate. One (ITF) credits General Choi as the founder and creator, while the other does not. Therefore the twos philosophy and account of history is radically different. There is simply no good reason for them both to be named TKD, especially given that the KKW expanded and developed techniques further, uniquely seperating themselves on technical grounds as well.

Well, it is important to remember that the term "Tae Kwon Do" was suggested, offered and accepted as a common term for what was taught by ALL the different Kwans, in a setting (early KTA) where all involved parties understood this to be a project involving multiple perspectives, for both nationalistic reasons and for the greater good of the arts, and with unification of a bunch of different traditions doing things in a bunch of different ways as the ultimate goal. Considering that the Kukkiwon is an institution created by the KTA for standardization purposes, and the term initially was suggested and accepted as a common term for the arts of the various schools involved in the KTA, I think that if contested, Kukki-style TKD have as good a claim to the term as anypne. It's after all a continuation of the same organization that Choi offered the term to in the first place.

Choi was an organizational and marketing genious, and I have no problems admiting that he had several important contributions to the art before splitting with the KTA, but Chois later claim to ownership of the term, and his insistance that only his Oh Do Kwan derived ITF-Tae Kwon-Do is "real TKD", and superior to anything else, once he realized he couldn't make everyone in the KTA do things his way, is as I see it a testament to his ego more than anything.

 

[Tez3]

Chrisoro, hugely impressed that in the first of your two posts you got that word past the censor here!

 

[Chrisoro]

Oops. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like I have the ability to edit the post anymore. Sorry if I offended anyone.

 

[Gnarlie]

Oops. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like I have the ability to edit the post anymore. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Not at all, I gave it the thumbs up. So to speak....