Repeated movements in the first form

[SifuBoza]

I think you are just a troll.

Nope i just know history...taiji is lost art long time ago..today is random upgraded style.

 

[WingChunIsNoSport]

Only 1 tansao in form. But why 3 fuk sao ?

Moy Yat only does 2 fook sao.

 

[WingChunIsNoSport]

Only 1 tansao in form. But why 3 fuk sao

If you do something several times, it is probably because it is important. The fook sao must be properly structured with the elbow in and at the centerline so the proper form is critical because of how important the fook sao is for controlling the centerline. Think of how easy a fook sao could turn into a fist, and how it can also prevent an opponent striking you with a joot sao and leaves you a clean target.

Only 1 tan sao in SLT? Lemme think...actually I counted 4 tan sao's in SLT:

-The 2nd move goes through a cross-armed partial double tan sao when coming up from the first movement
-After the chung kuen
-After the pak sao/chang geng
-The 1st tan sao after the pak sao/chang-geng goes to gum sao then back to tan sao

BTW Chum Kiu say 'sup...8 double tan sao, 6 upward tan sao, 12 bong sao with 6 of them going from bong sao to tan sao!

Probably important.

 

[WingChunIsNoSport]

so which yip man style is the real one?

All the lineages are real, what kind of question is that? Some of his students evolved it a bit such as Wong Shun Leung who added kicks but in general, you are just learning the alphabet from different teachers who were students of the same headmaster. As you know, handwriting can vary here and there, even when taught by the same teacher.

Just go a class and you'll see that the sihing are not all identical in their application.

As Sifu says (who was trained by Ip Man's son Ip Ching): "we teach you the alphabet and you write your story". It's not combo's 1-10.

 

[WingChunIsNoSport]

What do you mean? Are you saying I have to learn all versions of Yip Man wing chun in order to have real wing chun?

My 9 lives cat might be able to pull that off lol.

 

[WingChunIsNoSport]

I'm guessing from the way you spelled it (wing tsun) that you are in the Leung Ting lineage(?)

good catch.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

All the lineages are real, what kind of question is that? Some of his students evolved it a bit such as Wong Shun Leung who added kicks but in general, you are just learning the alphabet from different teachers who were students of the same headmaster. As you know, handwriting can vary here and there, even when taught by the same teacher.

Just go a class and you'll see that the sihing are not all identical in their application.

As Sifu says (who was trained by Ip Man's son Ip Ching): "we teach you the alphabet and you write your story". It's not combo's 1-10.

whoa there cowboy. If you read the messages previous to my question in the thread, you would see I was asking SifuBoza based on statements he made on the matter. I wasnt saying there is a 'real' yip man style.

 

[WingChunIsNoSport]

whoa there cowboy. If you read the messages previous to my question in the thread, you would see I was asking SifuBoza based on statements he made on the matter. I wasnt saying there is a 'real' yip man style.

Ain't a cowboy but you can definitely say "whoa tiger" lol. I saw a bit of that exchange but I'll be happy to take it back from your direction if I have misunderstood or saw it the wrong way.

 

[OffendedOnyx]

Can someone explain to me why some movements are repeated in the first form?

A couple major reasons.

The first reason is that there are very important and distinct applications. Think of it like a dictionary word...same (spelling/hand position), with a different (definition/application)
Rock paper scissors?
The second reason is that there are very important transitions that commonly happen due to movement logic. Someone goes rock than paper...so you go paper than scissors...assuming you want to survive of course

 

[WingChunIsNoSport]

Can someone explain to me why some movements are repeated in the first form?

Are you on the first form currently (Siu Lim Tao)? The reason I ask is because movements are repeated in all of the 3 forms.

The most repeated in the first form is obviously the woo sao or "protecting hand", which is done 8X (6X in Moy Yat lineage)...does this need further explanation? The fook sao or "controlling hand" would be next, which is 6X (4X in the Moy Yat lineage) and all is essentially to maintain focus of the centerline. Being that the fook sao is the "controlling hand", it can be used to lock the top of your wrist on to the opponent's but if you dig deeper it actually it roots the structure of the forearm as a pointer for the centerline on a controlled and relaxed manner.

Here is a great short video by Sifu Adam Williss that explains the CONCEPT of the fook sao:

What is a Fook Sao? | eWingChun

www.ewingchun.com

I think it would also be remiss to emphasize the importance of fook sao-jut sao as a means of controlling, deflecting and creating openings. Though this is where we don't put ourselves into a box.

We can also talk about perhaps the most repeated movement in overall in all forms is the huen sao or "circling hand". This movement can save you from many situations and is critical to grasp correctly (both inward and outward and especially from the tan sao to fook sao position as if you disconnect you leave yourself wide open).

In any case, since you asked specifically about the first form, here is an excellent explanation of Siu Lim Tao by GM Shu Chong Tin (who was nicknamed "Siu Lim Tao" by Ip Man):

Siu Nim Tao Explained by Grandmaster Chu Shong Tin

Learning Siu Nim Tao is divided into three stages. Firstly, one must relax the muscles of the whole body. Then, he should infuse the spirit..

mindfulwingchun.online

 

[WingChunIsNoSport]

What is its purpose? Huen sau's are everywhere in all the forms. I'm curious to know your thoughts about this.

Hmmm...only one Tan sau? What version or lineage are you? I've never heard of the first form only containing one Tan sau.

I have to agree here, the huen sao is an excellent technique for both gaining leverage as well as escaping holds that will result in large openings, not to mention huen sao to lop sao. Its not just a wrist exercise though it does condition your brain and wrist on applying the technique.

Also 100 on the tan sao. It truly shows the importance of understanding every movement of SLT or you just don't know wth you doing. In any case, perhaps our Wing Chun brother forgot about the double tan sao after the jum sao as well as the tan sao, gan sao, huen sao, palm strike before the bong sao to tan sao. That's definitely more than one!

 

[WingChunIsNoSport]

If you do something several times, it is probably because it is important. The fook sao must be properly structured with the elbow in and at the centerline so the proper form is critical because of how important the fook sao is for controlling the centerline. Think of how easy a fook sao could turn into a fist, and how it can also prevent an opponent striking you with a joot sao and leaves you a clean target.

Only 1 tan sao in SLT? Lemme think...actually I counted 4 tan sao's in SLT:

-The 2nd move goes through a cross-armed partial double tan sao when coming up from the first movement
-After the chung kuen
-After the pak sao/chang geng
-The 1st tan sao after the pak sao/chang-geng goes to gum sao then back to tan sao

BTW Chum Kiu say 'sup...8 double tan sao, 6 upward tan sao, 12 bong sao with 6 of them going from bong sao to tan sao!

Probably important.

Afrer seeing this again, silly me I forgot to add the bong sao to tan sao!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When talking about

- boxing, people will address offense skill such as jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, ...
- TKD, people will address offense skill such as front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
- Judo, people will address offense skill such as hip throw, leg lift, front cut, inner hook, ...
- WC, people will address defense skill such as Tan Shou, Fu Shou, Bong Shou, ...

Why?

 

[OffendedOnyx]

When talking about

- boxing, people will address offense skill such as jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, ...
- TKD, people will address offense skill such as front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
- Judo, people will address offense skill such as hip throw, leg lift, front cut, inner hook, ...
- WC, people will address defense skill such as Tan Shou, Fu Shou, Bong Shou, ...

Why?

Because they deserve general answers because of the nature of the of the question from the recievers end.

Some people psychology and psych bearings work...because they run a meritocracy...

Other ppl could care less and just generally roll with the punches

Like the question you just asked

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Because they deserve general answers because of the nature of the of the question from the recievers end.

Some people psychology and psych bearings work...because they run a meritocracy...

Other ppl could care less and just generally roll with the punches

Like the question you just asked

When a WC guy lands his fist on his opponent's face, he is not using Tan, Fu, or Bong.

 

[WingChunIsNoSport]

When talking about

- boxing, people will address offense skill such as jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, ...
- TKD, people will address offense skill such as front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
- Judo, people will address offense skill such as hip throw, leg lift, front cut, inner hook, ...
- WC, people will address defense skill such as Tan Shou, Fu Shou, Bong Shou, ...

Why?

It is because they are a part of the system and many people, especially when first starting probably will not grasp the concepts of what they are doing or the application. It is a very unique art.

Nobody typically (or at least competently) needs to ask the purpose or concept of chung kuen or lin wah kuen, biu sao, chang sao/dai chang sao, man/shat geng sao, various jeong, or the kicks in Chum Kiu or the biu jee etc. as they are rather self-evident offensive strikes, some of them brutal.

When someone first learns the bong sao for example, they are probably wondering wtf they are doing until their Sifu throw a strike at them and asks them to form a bong. Then the light goes on!

Furthermore, your perspective is flawed. Just because people ask about them, it doesn't change the fundamental core concept of Wing Chun and the one term to remember "Siu Lin Di Da", which is simultaneously deflecting and attacking. This is why we wouldn't just put up a tan sao for an incoming strike but both a tan sao and a strike or a bong sao and a strike at the same time with quick biu ma and continuing forward pressure.

I mean you didn't seriously think that one would just sit there and only put up tans and bongs all day against an aggressor right? Every form in Wing Chun has multiple offensive strikes and techniques.

Finally, in every single martial art you mentioned there are core fundamentals defensive techniques and concepts. My 4yo son is in Tae Kwon Doe and and he learned the in block, out block, high block, low block, up block when he was 2yo. He also learned breakfalls.

You mentioned Judo and offense, it is really too bad that many or perhaps most schools no longer teach Artemi-waza strikes these days. Though they definitely have defensive techniques, such as the uke (blocks) and ukemi (breakfalls).

As for boxing, my best friend is a boxing coach, and to suggest boxing has no defense is absurd, all due respect. Parry, shoulder roll, ducking, bobbing, weaving, gloves covering the side of the face to block hooks, "peekaboo", and why is it do you think commentators say "slipped a nice jab through the GUARD"? Guard definition: "to protect against damage or harm".

 

[wckf92]

When talking about

- WC, people will address defense skill such as Tan Shou, Fu Shou, Bong Shou, ...

Why?

I'm not sure.
But IMO it's a mindset that traces back to how one was trained. When I think of those terms you mentioned, to me those are linked to offensive, not defensive.

 

[wckf92]

When a WC guy lands his fist on his opponent's face, he is not using Tan, Fu, or Bong.

This is a narrow-minded statement.

 

[WingChunIsNoSport]

I'm not sure.
But IMO it's a mindset that traces back to how one was trained. When I think of those terms you mentioned, to me those are linked to offensive, not defensive.

The beauty of it is that they can be both. The tan sao is meant to control the outside line, inside the opponent's arm. If you put some forward motion into it and land your elbow or just above where the big bone runs down your forearm hard into your opponent's bicep from an incoming strike, it will hurt like hell and can weaken their arm. Also, since we punch/strike with our other arm at the same time, the tan sao arm is in a prime position to throw a follow up strike.

The bong sao shouldn't be the primary option but is an excellent technique for deflecting, and for protecting when transitioning. It can also be used to apply forward pressure into your opponent with your forearm and if you are in close you can put up a bong sao right under an opponent's chin to setup a finishing strike, especially to the throat. Also can turn a bong sao into an elbow strike or a biu sao.

The biomechanics are truly fascinating.

 

[WingChunIsNoSport]

This is a narrow-minded statement.

Agree. You may and likely would be using either of the techniques simultaneously with a punch.