Does your school misrepresent the black belt?

Steve

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In the thread What does having a blackbelt mean?many people continue to weigh in on what they believe a black belt signifies. Very interesting discussion.

What I also think is interesting is the disparity between what seems to be the consensus and what I believe is "common knowledge."

What I mean is, the overwhelming consensus on this board seems to be that a black belt doesn't mean more than that the student has learned the basics. Some even went so far as to suggest that a person with limited practical skill could be a black belt, if they possessed other desirable traits such as leadership or dedication.

However, ask the average person on the street, any country, regardless of demographic, the question, "What is a black belt?" What do you think the answer would be? I think that you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would answer other than that a black belt is a martial arts "expert."

I believe there's a huge gap, and so I'm wondering where that gap came from. Has it always been there? Did Kano award black belts for other than demonstrable skill? Did the teachers of other arts as they adopted the belt system in the early 1900's? Are modern MA schools actively contributing to the misunderstanding?

If you study in a school where you believe that the 1st degree/dan black belt is not an indicator of expertise, does your school actively or passively misrepresent the black belt to the public? Is your black belt deferred to by using honorifics? Is there a "black belt club"? Is a 1st dan black belt in your style able to open his/her own school? Would a member of the general public, viewing a demonstration or watching a class, get the impression that the black belt is considered other than an "expert" in the art.

What's the history of the "black belt" in the different styles? Was the black belt the same thing 20 years ago? 30? 50?
 

allenjp

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Well of course the "meaning" of the black belt can differ greatly between arts. In BJJ for example, one does not just get a black belt for showing up at class for a couple of years. It takes a while. It took Ed O'neal 15 years to get his black belt at the Gracie Academy, And other than the occasional "prodigy" (read B.J. Penn) It's rare to see anyone in this art get the black belt before eight years or so, usually more like ten. Of course it also depends on the individual school and instructor.
 

terryl965

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Well inmy choosen art there are alot of BB that only took less then two years but that is what seperates me from them. The average for my school is 5.5 years we are just like it was for me when I was training in the sixty and seventies.
 

stickarts

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I don't find it surprising that an experienced martial artist might have a different perspective than someone with no experience in martial arts. Isn't that true in many fields of study?
When I talk with anyone very knowledgable in a field I know little about, I find that I have many misperceptions.
"Expert" is relative. I might feel like an expert to someone with no training, but I feel like a beginner when I train with gifted people that have been in the arts far longer than I.
 
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Steve

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Well of course the "meaning" of the black belt can differ greatly between arts. In BJJ for example, one does not just get a black belt for showing up at class for a couple of years. It takes a while. It took Ed O'neal 15 years to get his black belt at the Gracie Academy, And other than the occasional "prodigy" (read B.J. Penn) It's rare to see anyone in this art get the black belt before eight years or so, usually more like ten. Of course it also depends on the individual school and instructor.
Yes! Exactly, but those are internal definitions. I'm really interested in how it came to be that the public has what is largely a consistent and pervasive understanding of a term that is so at odds with many martial arts schools/styles. I'm curious about why there is a "common knowledge" understanding of black belt and then this increasingly common, insider definition that is completely different.

As I said, this has been percolating since I responded to that other thread. In BJJ, the definition of a black belt is an "expert". Some are better than others, but you don't get a black belt if you aren't an expert in the art. And of all of the respondants to that thread, BJJ seemed to stand alone with this definition. Yet, from my experiences in real life and online, most (if not all) people outside of martial arts share this same definition. If the BJJ definition weren't so clear, I would probably have never given this a second thought.

So, where did this new age definition come from? Is it new at all? Is it a good thing or bad, or irrelevant?

And, are some styles complicit in promoting these misconceptions? Is this a bad thing?
 
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Well inmy choosen art there are alot of BB that only took less then two years but that is what seperates me from them. The average for my school is 5.5 years we are just like it was for me when I was training in the sixty and seventies.
Thanks, Terry. Does this ever cause friction within your organization? Do you think it affects attrition or the slower promotion rates cause people to quit who might not otherwise?
 

bowser666

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What alot of people fail to understand also is that some people learn faster than others, have more natural ability, train longer, harder, etc....... To say that a black belt should take a minimum of 8 years or whatever is wrong. If a person has the time , dedication, and whatnot to train everyday, for m,any horus etc..... It coudl easily happen in half or even a quarter of the time. You can't judge based on the simple statement " I got my black belt in 2.5 years. See how they actually perform their art. I have seen students that are 2nd / 3rd degree in certain styles and I have seen better technique and skill from a green belt. Talk is cheap when it comes to # of degrees, how long or how short it took you to get them doesnt mean jack. Observe the student/ teacher etc..... You can easily tell the quality ones from the mass produced...........
 
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I don't find it surprising that an experienced martial artist might have a different perspective than someone with no experience in martial arts. Isn't that true in many fields of study?
When I talk with anyone very knowledgable in a field I know little about, I find that I have many misperceptions.
"Expert" is relative. I might feel like an expert to someone with no training, but I feel like a beginner when I train with gifted people that have been in the arts far longer than I.
Interesting points. Can you help me out with some examples? I hadn't thought about other fields of study.

Since you brought it up, in trying to think of similar situations in which people are certified or credentialed, a few things come to mind. College graduates are a common analogy to black belts. College graduates are expected, based upon their degree, to have certain knowledge, skills and abilities. Some in the other thread compared a 1st degree black belt to a high school graduate. Understandable, but do you think allowing (to continue the analogy) a high school graduate to teach elementary school is a good idea? That's essentially what allowing 1st or 2nd dan black belts to teach or open schools is doing. Isn't it? Doesn't that promote a misunderstanding of the nature of the high school degree?

Brainstorming, I'm thinking of other certificates that are very common. An ASE Certified mechanic is perceived to be an expert in that field. An MCSE certificate is an indicator of expertise in network management and infrastructure.

Or, perhaps more in line with MA, I can't think of an instructor in any other trade or skill, personal or professional, who would profess to be other than an expert and still expect to have students. Yet, are there not 1st degree black belts opening schools? Isn't this relatively common? And doesn't this, then, contribute to the public misconceptions about what a black belt is or isn't?
 

JadeDragon3

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In the thread What does having a blackbelt mean?many people continue to weigh in on what they believe a black belt signifies. Very interesting discussion.

What I also think is interesting is the disparity between what seems to be the consensus and what I believe is "common knowledge."

What I mean is, the overwhelming consensus on this board seems to be that a black belt doesn't mean more than that the student has learned the basics. Some even went so far as to suggest that a person with limited practical skill could be a black belt, if they possessed other desirable traits such as leadership or dedication.

However, ask the average person on the street, any country, regardless of demographic, the question, "What is a black belt?" What do you think the answer would be? I think that you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would answer other than that a black belt is a martial arts "expert."

I believe there's a huge gap, and so I'm wondering where that gap came from. Has it always been there? Did Kano award black belts for other than demonstrable skill? Did the teachers of other arts as they adopted the belt system in the early 1900's? Are modern MA schools actively contributing to the misunderstanding?

If you study in a school where you believe that the 1st degree/dan black belt is not an indicator of expertise, does your school actively or passively misrepresent the black belt to the public? Is your black belt deferred to by using honorifics? Is there a "black belt club"? Is a 1st dan black belt in your style able to open his/her own school? Would a member of the general public, viewing a demonstration or watching a class, get the impression that the black belt is considered other than an "expert" in the art.

What's the history of the "black belt" in the different styles? Was the black belt the same thing 20 years ago? 30? 50?

At my school it takes about 3 and a half yrs to get your 1st level black sash. My school teaches Sil Lum Kung. In kung fu there is no governing body to oversee what curriculum is being taught. If one wants he or she can open a school when they get thier black sash (of course that doesn't mean they'll be successful). But then again anyone can open a school of any style and say they are a black belt in this style or that style and who is going to prove them wrong. Fake certificates are made all the time. Heck, I can make one up on my computer and make it look legit in a few minutes. I guess my point is you can't judge a school by what rank the owner or teacher is. I was taught that a black sash is just a starting point, that you have mastered the basics and are ready to start specializing in one area of kung fu such as crane style or snake style or monkey style or even drunken style. It is at this stage that training really starts and get tough.
 
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Steve

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What alot of people fail to understand also is that some people learn faster than others, have more natural ability, train longer, harder, etc....... To say that a black belt should take a minimum of 8 years or whatever is wrong. If a person has the time , dedication, and whatnot to train everyday, for m,any horus etc..... It coudl easily happen in half or even a quarter of the time. You can't judge based on the simple statement " I got my black belt in 2.5 years. See how they actually perform their art. I have seen students that are 2nd / 3rd degree in certain styles and I have seen better technique and skill from a green belt. Talk is cheap when it comes to # of degrees, how long or how short it took you to get them doesnt mean jack. Observe the student/ teacher etc..... You can easily tell the quality ones from the mass produced...........
Bowser, I agree 100%. Allenjp mentioned Ed O'Neil (my hero) and BJ Penn in BJJ. Ed O'Neill trained for 15 years before acheiving black belt. BJ Penn did it in about 3. Big difference. Both, however, are considered to be experts in BJJ. While BJ Penn would undoubtedly be more skilled, Ed O'Neill, as a black belt, is expected to be an expert. If he opened a school, there wouldn't be anyone who would say, "Yeah, but he's a 1st dan, so he's just mastered the basics."

Now, I'm not suggesting that black belts or anyone should (or could) ever stop improving and learning.
 

terryl965

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Thanks, Terry. Does this ever cause friction within your organization? Do you think it affects attrition or the slower promotion rates cause people to quit who might not otherwise?

Well at this moment I am not involved in any organistations so I stand alone. On to the next question sure I loose about twenty percent of my students to other schools that promote more regular but to me they where never serious student they just wanted a belt, so it was best for them to leave. I do not do this for a primary so I only want those that truely want to learn the Art of TKD. I hope that helps.
 

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I think for the time being it is easy for arts like BJJ to hold their standards so high because there just is not a lot of schools. Talk to me in 15-20 years when a BJJ black belt is not so uncommon it is only a matter of time before it is like any other art.

I think every art should be like BJJ is now. The problem is that society dictates that it can't be because we want everything now with limited work. I love the fact that in BJJ you have to perform not just know the material. In my Dojang sparring is a part of testing from white belt up and that is how it should be. Not everyone can be a blackbelt you have to have some skill and dedication bottom line.

I think BJJ is an exception right now because there are limited schools in most areas paired with the popularity of UFC can charge a lot of money and get it. So they don't need to bring in the number of students that a "Karate" studio would have to bring in chargin half the rates.

In my opinion regardless of style a BB should mean you can handle yourself against most threats in most situations. Bottom line.
 

JadeDragon3

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Yeah thats the thing with BJJ, you either know your ***** or you don't. At our school we are under Carlson Gracie Jr. and to become a purple belt you have to be able to "hang" with someone else thats a purple belt or whatever belt it is your testing for. Carlos Gracie Jr comes down from Chicago for most of the testing, sometimes he doesn't though.
 
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allenjp

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Yeah thats the thing with BJJ, you either know your ***** or you don't. At our school we are under Carlos Gracie Jr. and to become a purple belt you have to be able to "hang" with someone else thats a purple belt or whatever belt it is your testing for. Carlos Gracie Jr comes down from Chicago for most of the testing, sometimes he doesn't though.

Do you mean Carlson Jr.? Or Carlos Jr. from Gracie Barra. I thought Carlos Jr. lived in the OC or LA area??? I know that Carlson Sr. lived in Chicago before he died...
 

allenjp

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But then again anyone can open a school of any style and say they are a black belt in this style or that style and who is going to prove them wrong. Fake certificates are made all the time. Heck, I can make one up on my computer and make it look legit in a few minutes. I guess my point is you can't judge a school by what rank the owner or teacher is.

That's why I did research on my instructor first, and found this:

and this


That's my instructor, Magid Hage, standing next to Carlos Gracie Jr., son of one of the founders of the art, who promoted him to BB in the first picture. And also standing next to Babalu, who was promoted to BB on the same day, in the second picture. When a Gracie has promoted someone to BB, it's a pretty good bet they know what they are doing. But that of course is kind of unique to BJJ.
 

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Now in the Bujinkan, a BB is just considered to have understanding and proficiency in the basics, and that is really the starting point for real learning. But they tell you that directly. When I went to try out a Bujinkan dojo, the instructor who was a third dan told me that straight up. So at least they don't try to misrepresent it as something it is not, and they only have three belt colors to begin with anyway.
 
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I think for the time being it is easy for arts like BJJ to hold their standards so high because there just is not a lot of schools. Talk to me in 15-20 years when a BJJ black belt is not so uncommon it is only a matter of time before it is like any other art.

I think every art should be like BJJ is now. The problem is that society dictates that it can't be because we want everything now with limited work. I love the fact that in BJJ you have to perform not just know the material. In my Dojang sparring is a part of testing from white belt up and that is how it should be. Not everyone can be a blackbelt you have to have some skill and dedication bottom line.

I think BJJ is an exception right now because there are limited schools in most areas paired with the popularity of UFC can charge a lot of money and get it. So they don't need to bring in the number of students that a "Karate" studio would have to bring in chargin half the rates.

In my opinion regardless of style a BB should mean you can handle yourself against most threats in most situations. Bottom line.
I want to be clear. This is NOT intended to be a veiled "BJJ RULZ" thread. I agree that it will be difficult over time for the standards to remain consistent. There is already a lot of discussion about the number of blue belts running around and whether they're as good as blue belts of yore.

I only refer to BJJ as it's the style that currently universally defines Black Belt in a way that is consistent with the general lay definition of the term: an expert in that style of martial arts.
 
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Steve

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Yeah thats the thing with BJJ, you either know your ***** or you don't. At our school we are under Carlson Gracie Jr. and to become a purple belt you have to be able to "hang" with someone else thats a purple belt or whatever belt it is your testing for. Carlos Gracie Jr comes down from Chicago for most of the testing, sometimes he doesn't though.
As long as this kind of measure is applied, BJJ will be more resistant than other styles. And at the risk of a tangent, I think that the competition aspect helps, too.

Allenjp, awesome pictures. Gracie Barra... as close to an "organization" as BJJ has. :)
 

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