Rear Leg Side Kick

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,816
Reaction score
5,692
If you don't want your opponent to

- punch you forever, you wrap his punching arm.
- kick you forever, you catch his kicking leg.



Yeah there is another way where you block the kick with your forearm and wrap upward trapping the leg in the crook of your elbow.

You will basically never see it in high level competition because of the risk of a powerful kicker kicking your arm off.

This one is against a front kick.

 
Last edited:

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,730
Reaction score
2,755
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
This one is against a front kick.

The downward block followed by upward wrapping is 2 steps process. it may be too slow to catch a front kick. The front kick is like the jab, it's very fast.

But if you use downward block with upward wrist hooking, you can combine downward block and leg catching as 1 step process which is much faster.

Still, I don't think one should try to catch a front kick (same as to catch a jab). The moment that you try to catch your opponent's front kick, the moment that your opponent can drop his kicking leg and punch on your face.

To use front kick to set up a face punch is the basic principle 101 for all striking game.
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,697
Reaction score
8,316
Location
Maui
Okay, sounds pretty much like our "push block".

Curious...Do you actually push with it? Push with it to turn him, or do you slap it away? Probably either would be my guess.

If someone is throwing one of those monster sidekicks at my body, and I'm lucky enough to see it coming before it kills me, I use what we used to call a matador slap. You use both hands as you move slightly back, your arms do a motion like you were holding a table cloth and wanted to spread it out on the bed and just before it lands on the bed you decide you want it closer to you...so the hands kind of pull back. With the kick it's a two hand slap that incorporates that pull back movement.

And that pull back motion, which appears subtle, really diffuses the side kick and messes up the kicker's timing in a big way. It doesn't matter how skilled or experienced a kicker he is, it screws him up until he has it done to him a bunch of time. It's so easy to counter HIM as his retrieval of his kick is disturbed. You might think he can easily use his hands to follow up on you as he comes down, but it doesn't work that way for some reason that I don't have the ability to explain. Play with it, it works really well.

As a former kicker, who would rather kick than eat pizza - I still love messing with kickers. Even now.
 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
6,602
Reaction score
2,031
Location
Southeast U.S.
Yeah there is another way where you block the kick with your forearm and wrap upward trapping the leg in the crook of your elbow.

You will basically never see it in high level competition because of the risk of a powerful kicker kicking your arm off.

This one is against a front kick.

Yeah, that is pretty sad. Even sadder that he is referencing the book he apparently just learned it from.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,797
Reaction score
8,222
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Yeah there is another way where you block the kick with your forearm and wrap upward trapping the leg in the crook of your elbow.

You will basically never see it in high level competition because of the risk of a powerful kicker kicking your arm off.

This one is against a front kick.

NGA contains three kick defenses that amount to different methods of trapping a kick. They're taught mostly against a front kick. I'm not wild about how they're used. NGA folks aren't typically great kickers (I was among the best, and I consider my kicks mediocre), and two of those traps work much better (more reliably) against round kicks than straight ones.

The one you're talking about, we call "Scoop Against a Kick". Our technique names are so poetic. :p
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,797
Reaction score
8,222
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Curious...Do you actually push with it? Push with it to turn him, or do you slap it away? Probably either would be my guess.
We can do either, though the "purest" principle is a very soft push, just edging the attack off-target enough to miss, while preserving the momentum it brought, to get them quickly into grappling distance.

If someone is throwing one of those monster sidekicks at my body, and I'm lucky enough to see it coming before it kills me, I use what we used to call a matador slap. You use both hands as you move slightly back, your arms do a motion like you were holding a table cloth and wanted to spread it out on the bed and just before it lands on the bed you decide you want it closer to you...so the hands kind of pull back. With the kick it's a two hand slap that incorporates that pull back movement.
I think I'm picturing that right. I've not worked enough against good kickers to know if I could pull that off against a monster kick, but the basic principle is something we work with.

And that pull back motion, which appears subtle, really diffuses the side kick and messes up the kicker's timing in a big way. It doesn't matter how skilled or experienced a kicker he is, it screws him up until he has it done to him a bunch of time. It's so easy to counter HIM as his retrieval of his kick is disturbed. You might think he can easily use his hands to follow up on you as he comes down, but it doesn't work that way for some reason that I don't have the ability to explain. Play with it, it works really well.
That's the principle I was talking about with the push/slap block. You're taking the "mustard" off the kick, but not stopping the momentum like you would if you blocked hard (or if he made solid contact). It leaves him in limbo - not enough contact for a super-easy retrieval, and not quite enough momentum to follow the leg like he would if the kick missed entirely.

As a former kicker, who would rather kick than eat pizza - I still love messing with kickers. Even now.
Man, good kickers mess with my whole game, so they deserve it.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
9,120
Reaction score
3,127
Location
New York
We can do either, though the "purest" principle is a very soft push, just edging the attack off-target enough to miss, while preserving the momentum it brought, to get them quickly into grappling distance.
Having a soft push for the goal when you're blocking a kick sounds like a really good way to get kicked by a kick.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,797
Reaction score
8,222
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Having a soft push for the goal when you're blocking a kick sounds like a really good way to get kicked by a kick.
Remember we dont kick a lot, so not much focus on defending them. I tend to control kicks with distancing and my own kicks, more than blocks. When I have to block them, its likely to be either a variation of that slap block @Buka described, or a shell/close guard.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
9,120
Reaction score
3,127
Location
New York
Remember we dont kick a lot, so not much focus on defending them. I tend to control kicks with distancing and my own kicks, more than blocks. When I have to block them, its likely to be either a variation of that slap block @Buka described, or a shell/close guard.
The shell block works. So does the slap block if you're putting power into it. But if your goal is to be gentle with that block, and the other person doesn't have the same lack of focus on kicks, then you're in a world of trouble.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,797
Reaction score
8,222
Location
Hendersonville, NC
The shell block works. So does the slap block if you're putting power into it. But if your goal is to be gentle with that block, and the other person doesn't have the same lack of focus on kicks, then you're in a world of trouble.
Agreed. That softer push is really only effective agains straight attacks (jab, etc.) or paired with a step off-line. It doesnt stop power coming in from the side.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
9,120
Reaction score
3,127
Location
New York
Agreed. That softer push is really only effective agains straight attacks (jab, etc.) or paired with a step off-line. It doesnt stop power coming in from the side.
I think that's a fair differentiation. Against a pure front strike (front kick, or side kick from the front), it can work. But the step offline is really what's doing the work-the hand pushing the kick out of the way is really just letting the rest of your body know where to step off line.

But against any sort of hook, crescent or roundhouse kick, a push like that doesn't work. Or at least I haven't figured out how to make it work.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,797
Reaction score
8,222
Location
Hendersonville, NC
I think that's a fair differentiation. Against a pure front strike (front kick, or side kick from the front), it can work. But the step offline is really what's doing the work-the hand pushing the kick out of the way is really just letting the rest of your body know where to step off line.

But against any sort of hook, crescent or roundhouse kick, a push like that doesn't work. Or at least I haven't figured out how to make it work.
Thats be my take. Though Im interested in seeing @Bukas monster kick block he described. Id say I was interested in feeling it, but I doubt my kick brings enough power to make it work the way it would in a good kicker.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
9,120
Reaction score
3,127
Location
New York
Thats be my take. Though Im interested in seeing @Bukas monster kick block he described. Id say I was interested in feeling it, but I doubt my kick brings enough power to make it work the way it would in a good kicker.
That depends. In general I'm a below average kicker. But if my goal was to kick with power, without focusing on everything else, I can send a good roundhouse/front/side kick if needed. I would guess that you're the same way-with worrying about footing, what else might happen, etc. the kick isn't as strong as it could be. But if you're told "Kick as hard as you can while I block it", it would still be a pretty hard kick.

That said, I'm not particularly interested in feeling it, since I've already felt it. It's a good response to a kick. What's a better response is the people who are able to tell when I'm about to kick, and kick my shin as I start. No matter how much I work on my telegraphing, they're able to stop it before it gets out there.
 
OP
skribs

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
5,737
Reaction score
1,403
I do remember someone jamming my thigh, it is a very strong muscle. They would have to be in pretty close, too close for comfort. How do you block the thigh?

If it's WT sparring, now you're too close for them to easily kick. If it's more lenient rules, you can catch the leg and you're close enough to sweep the other one.
 

Yokozuna514

Black Belt
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
679
Reaction score
475
Yeah there is another way where you block the kick with your forearm and wrap upward trapping the leg in the crook of your elbow.

You will basically never see it in high level competition because of the risk of a powerful kicker kicking your arm off.

This one is against a front kick.

Interesting video. Not quite sure how much I agree with the technique the way that it is shown. There are a lot of elements that require the cooperation of your opponent to make the technique work. As most of us know, too much cooperation can invalidate the technique if it is not trained in a realistic manner.

As an alternative solution to the same problem of catching a front kick, you could train using 'shuto mawashi uke' which basically means that person receiving the kick in the video would parry the kick away from his body and the scoop the front kick with his left hand (or both hands) to throw the kicker backwards. This is not a perfect video to demonstrate what I am talking about but it gives the general idea: Shuto Mawashi Uke - Bunkai | Iain Abernethy
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,797
Reaction score
8,222
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Interesting video. Not quite sure how much I agree with the technique the way that it is shown. There are a lot of elements that require the cooperation of your opponent to make the technique work. As most of us know, too much cooperation can invalidate the technique if it is not trained in a realistic manner.

As an alternative solution to the same problem of catching a front kick, you could train using 'shuto mawashi uke' which basically means that person receiving the kick in the video would parry the kick away from his body and the scoop the front kick with his left hand (or both hands) to throw the kicker backwards. This is not a perfect video to demonstrate what I am talking about but it gives the general idea: Shuto Mawashi Uke - Bunkai | Iain Abernethy
The entry to that is similar to one of the classical forms in NGA (we finish differently - I'm not fond of their finish in that video). In my opinion, that entry is just to get to the takedown, and isn't meant to be literal. The idea should be, as I understand it, that you're training what to do if you end up with that leg in your grasp, and the drill simply feeds you a leg to work with.
 

Yokozuna514

Black Belt
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
679
Reaction score
475
The entry to that is similar to one of the classical forms in NGA (we finish differently - I'm not fond of their finish in that video). In my opinion, that entry is just to get to the takedown, and isn't meant to be literal. The idea should be, as I understand it, that you're training what to do if you end up with that leg in your grasp, and the drill simply feeds you a leg to work with.
Perhaps on the surface. The difference between the two videos is that in the first video, the defender is stepping offline and then catching the kick. In the second video, the defender steps forward and uses a parry that can also be used to catch the kick. Next opportunity you have, try both and let me know if both are equally effective. In my experience it has never been easy to sidestep a front kick without parrying first but then again I do not move like the flash ;) .
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,797
Reaction score
8,222
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Perhaps on the surface. The difference between the two videos is that in the first video, the defender is stepping offline and then catching the kick. In the second video, the defender steps forward and uses a parry that can also be used to catch the kick. Next opportunity you have, try both and let me know if both are equally effective. In my experience it has never been easy to sidestep a front kick without parrying first but then again I do not move like the flash ;) .
I'll see if I can see the videos (data issues at the moment). In any case, I wasn't commenting on the specific technique, but on the approach used in training a lot of these. Even when training things that can work reasonably well, classical drills for kick defenses tend to start with someone delivering a formal kick that has been well-broadcast. Unfortunately, I've seen folks continue to train them only with that kind of drill, assuming it's supposed to work exactly that way, rather than recognizing that the entry (in your example, the parry) is what gets you to where the technique is available. It doesn't much matter how you get there, in terms of the technique, itself. If the entry taught is useful, that's fantastic. If it isn't, you're still able to practice a good finish from that point, but it's important to understand that the entry in that case isn't reliable.
 
OP
skribs

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
5,737
Reaction score
1,403
The downward block followed by upward wrapping is 2 steps process. it may be too slow to catch a front kick. The front kick is like the jab, it's very fast.

But if you use downward block with upward wrist hooking, you can combine downward block and leg catching as 1 step process which is much faster.

Still, I don't think one should try to catch a front kick (same as to catch a jab). The moment that you try to catch your opponent's front kick, the moment that your opponent can drop his kicking leg and punch on your face.

To use front kick to set up a face punch is the basic principle 101 for all striking game.

The thigh recoils slower than the shin does. This is why I keep saying to catch the thigh instead of the shin. It's the same principle as wrapping the shoulder when someone punches.

NGA contains three kick defenses that amount to different methods of trapping a kick. They're taught mostly against a front kick. I'm not wild about how they're used. NGA folks aren't typically great kickers (I was among the best, and I consider my kicks mediocre), and two of those traps work much better (more reliably) against round kicks than straight ones.

The one you're talking about, we call "Scoop Against a Kick". Our technique names are so poetic. :p

I actually find the front kick easier to work around than a roundhouse kick. The front kick has about 3 or 4 inches of coverage where it can hit, where the roundhouse kick has a large arc where it can get you.

Our front kick defenses can go to the inside or outside (i.e. towards their stance or behind their stance). Or we can step back and catch the kick (you see this in Muay Thai too). The roundhouse kick you can only go inside. You can go backward and avoid the kick, but you aren't going to catch it without taking the hit. If you try and go outside, you'll take less damage from the kick, but it will still hit you.

Side kick is the other way. None of our defenses go inside, because that puts you right in the path of the kick.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,730
Reaction score
2,755
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
The thigh recoils slower than the shin does. This is why I keep saying to catch the thigh instead of the shin. It's the same principle as wrapping the shoulder when someone punches.
If your arm can reach to your opponent's thigh, the distance is much closer that the distance that you can only reach to his shin. In that distance, you can kick/sweep/hook your opponent's rooting leg and take him down.

When the distance is that close, there are better solution.

Chang-inner-hook.gif
 
Top