Rear Leg Side Kick

[skribs]

I've been thinking about the rear leg side kick over the last week or so. It's one of the first kicks you learn in a lot of kicking arts. It's one of the "basic kicks". But the rear-leg side kick is also generally found to be a slow kick by a lot of people, especially compared to the front and roundhouse kick. It might be a strong kick - especially in terms of it's pushing power - but if you don't have the speed to land it, then it doesn't really make sense. However, I've come up with these uses for the kick:

1. As a training tool to better understand the front leg side kick, back kick, and hook kick. Yes, those will be done different (especially when you learn more about how a back kick actually works instead of doing a turning side kick), but we teach the basic principle of the turning side kick before moving onto the black belt much later.
2. If you chamber a front kick and your opponent moves to the outside, you can switch to a side kick.
3. If you do a roundhouse kick with follow through and bounce your foot off the ground, you put yourself into the chamber position of the side kick.
4. If your opponent dodges a crescent kick, you can chamber and throw a side kick instead of putting your foot down. I catch a lot of people with this combo.
5. I've been working on smoothing out the motion of the side kick, and now I'm nearly as fast as my front kick and actually faster than my roundhouse. It's not got the same pushing power as the full chamber motion, but I feel it would impact harder in addition to being faster.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Will you use the cross as your 1st punch? You use jab to set up cross.

The rear leg side kick is just like the cross, both require set up. It should be used as the 2nd move instead of the 1st move.

 

[Earl Weiss]

IMO basic sparring strategy dictates that combinations are initiated with the lead hand or foot. (Note this is "Basic" more advanced strategies can violate basic theory in order to be less predictable)

 

[wab25]

Its all about the setup. If you just throw it, you might as well tell them first. "Hey, here comes my rear leg side kick, be ready." But, if you set it up right, you will get surprise added to the power.

If you chamber a front kick and your opponent moves to the outside, you can switch to a side kick.

I use a variation of this idea. If I chamber a front kick, then all I need to do is pivot on the ball of my root foot, and it can become a side kick. I like using the front snap kick a lot, with the rear leg. If I can score with it, great... but I really want to get them used to seeing my snap kick and get comfortable that they can deal with it.

I have found that with some folks, they like to block it using their arms. Then, they try to counter punch me, before the foot gets back down. Here I will give them a little more distance, even if my kick won't have power when it reaches them, in order to get them to have to reach or move in a little farther for their counter. Now that they are committed to moving in quickly after the block... I chamber the kick, then pivot on the root foot, and throw the side kick. When it works, they see me chamber for the front kick, which they go to block and move in for the counter... however, their block, happened when I pivoted, the side kick comes in just behind their block... and I get the added benefit of them quickly moving into it, hoping for their counter shot.

Other times, people like to get an idea of how far I can reach with my front kick. Then they will move back just enough to avoid it, to then move back in. When they get comfortable with that distance... I add the pivot, and turn it into a side kick, which reaches them, where the front kick won't.

Both of these setups, rely on them seeing the front kick a lot, and not seeing the side kick. Once they know you are looking for a rear leg side kick, you have lost the set up... for the side kick. But, you have them set up for something else... The success of a technique is not always if it scores. If the technique does not score, but sets up a scoring opportunity... I call it a success.

 

[JP3]

Another thing is that, like you aready do with the crescent-to-side kick same-leg kick combo, you can conceal what kick is coming in the same manner... i.e. Bill Wallace style. I used a rear leg front kick, same leg roundhouse or side kick combo very effectively IMO for years as people would generally commit to defending/blocking (or attempting to) the front kick because it wasn't a fake, it was really coming in. I found it easy to rechamber the front kick with a hip shift/pivot and change the rechamber arc so as to get in position for the follow up kick. Same theory/principle as you already use in the crescent to side kick combo.Agree witht he above, even if you're really good/fast it's difficult to land a rear leg kick of any variety unless your set-up (including movement) is really, really good

 

[skribs]

I use a variation of this idea. If I chamber a front kick, then all I need to do is pivot on the ball of my root foot, and it can become a side kick. I like using the front snap kick a lot, with the rear leg. If I can score with it, great... but I really want to get them used to seeing my snap kick and get comfortable that they can deal with it.

I think this is a Karate thing. Taekwondo we kinda do this, but each kick also has it's own way of being chambered. From the very little I know of Karate (forums and youtube), my understanding is y'all want to chamber the same so your opponent doesn't know what kick is coming.

 

[wab25]

Change the chamber, when you pivot your foot. Its the same change in chamber you need if the other guy moves to the outside. By pivoting on your foot, you effectively move him to the outside, into the same position he would be in for your #2. (that sounds really bad, but hey, you listed them in that order...) This way, you don't need him to move at all.

 

[dvcochran]

I think this is a Karate thing. Taekwondo we kinda do this, but each kick also has it's own way of being chambered. From the very little I know of Karate (forums and youtube), my understanding is y'all want to chamber the same so your opponent doesn't know what kick is coming.

This must be specific to your school. We teach the same chamber for the common kicks, for the reason you mentioned plus for ease of acclimation. KKW 101. As people advance we teach how/where to modify the chamber if needed. There is great value in being 1/2 way or better through a kick before your opponent knows what is coming.
Keep in mind this is for a 'static' chamber. Combo's and spins change in dynamics quite a bit.

 

[dvcochran]

Change the chamber, when you pivot your foot. Its the same change in chamber you need if the other guy moves to the outside. By pivoting on your foot, you effectively move him to the outside, into the same position he would be in for your #2. (that sounds really bad, but hey, you listed them in that order...) This way, you don't need him to move at all.

This is the elegant art in sparring; getting your opponent to do/move as you want them to. Setups are necessary but even they get predictable after a while. Posture and footwork go a Long way.

 

[Buka]

I think this is a Karate thing. Taekwondo we kinda do this, but each kick also has it's own way of being chambered. From the very little I know of Karate (forums and youtube), my understanding is y'all want to chamber the same so your opponent doesn't know what kick is coming.

It’s more than likely school specific. When I trained in TKD we always tried to chamber every kick the exact same way. Worked pretty good.

Doesn’t matter much when something is coming at you, all that matters is.. you know.

 

[Buka]

I’ve had great success with what we used to call a Sliding back leg side kick. Just as your body starts to turn, you use the momentum of moving forward to slide you base foot a bit. Anywhere between a few inches to a couple/three feet.

We used to use it against “runners”.
It ends up being more of a push than a kick. But If he’s moving backwards it will push him **** over teakettle. Which is always kind of fun.

 

[skribs]

I’ve had great success with what we used to call a Sliding back leg side kick. Just as your body starts to turn, you use the momentum of moving forward to slide you base foot a bit. Anywhere between a few inches to a couple/three feet.

We used to use it against “runners”.
It ends up being more of a push than a kick. But If he’s moving backwards it will push him **** over teakettle. Which is always kind of fun.

Kinda like a drag version of the flying side kick?

 

[drop bear]

It’s more than likely school specific. When I trained in TKD we always tried to chamber every kick the exact same way. Worked pretty good.

Doesn’t matter much when something is coming at you, all that matters is.. you know.

I never had the hips for it.

 

[dvcochran]

I’ve had great success with what we used to call a Sliding back leg side kick. Just as your body starts to turn, you use the momentum of moving forward to slide you base foot a bit. Anywhere between a few inches to a couple/three feet.

We used to use it against “runners”.
It ends up being more of a push than a kick. But If he’s moving backwards it will push him **** over teakettle. Which is always kind of fun.

Agree. I mentioned this technique earlier. We would put lines on the floor 1-2-3 feet apart and call out the number in cadence. The kicker learned to slide said distance on call. Body position is So important.
It is a good tool to have in the bag but I hate when I see someone who tries to leave their leg up like it is on a spring. Just jam the kick and push through.

 

[dvcochran]

Kinda like a drag version of the flying side kick?

That may be an exaggeration but you are on the right track. There is no 'running' leading up to the slide. If you are in a closed stance, slightly shift you weight and drive forward with the rear leg while simultaneously chambering the lead leg. The lead leg/chamber starts First. The root leg does the bulk of the work. As a TKD guy I think you will get what I mean by saying the chamber component is it's own thing. The lead leg knee goes high to help drive the body forward. This is also a good defensive posture if done correctly. The push of the root leg and drive of the chamber creates the slide.
We practice a max of three slides before the lead leg is placed back on the floor so a person who is polished can literally chase the opponent out of the ring. More than 3 is just not practical IMHO. Care has to be taken not to lean the upper body too far back. When the opponent can easily jam you and knock you back. This is where good leg and core strength is paramount. If a person is too dependent on the fulcrum effect they will get in trouble.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've been thinking about the rear leg side kick over the last week or so. It's one of the first kicks you learn in a lot of kicking arts. It's one of the "basic kicks". But the rear-leg side kick is also generally found to be a slow kick by a lot of people, especially compared to the front and roundhouse kick. It might be a strong kick - especially in terms of it's pushing power - but if you don't have the speed to land it, then it doesn't really make sense. However, I've come up with these uses for the kick:

1. As a training tool to better understand the front leg side kick, back kick, and hook kick. Yes, those will be done different (especially when you learn more about how a back kick actually works instead of doing a turning side kick), but we teach the basic principle of the turning side kick before moving onto the black belt much later.
2. If you chamber a front kick and your opponent moves to the outside, you can switch to a side kick.
3. If you do a roundhouse kick with follow through and bounce your foot off the ground, you put yourself into the chamber position of the side kick.
4. If your opponent dodges a crescent kick, you can chamber and throw a side kick instead of putting your foot down. I catch a lot of people with this combo.
5. I've been working on smoothing out the motion of the side kick, and now I'm nearly as fast as my front kick and actually faster than my roundhouse. It's not got the same pushing power as the full chamber motion, but I feel it would impact harder in addition to being faster.

Oddly, in the mainstream NGA curriculum, there is ONLY a rear leg side kick. The round kick comes in both rear leg and slide-up (front leg), but no front leg version for th side kick. And because of this, you rarely see a side kick of any sort in sparring. I've been trying to develop my front leg kick to usable standards.

I'd be interested in seeing a video of what you mean with #3 - I'm not quite picturing what you're describing here.

I need to go back and look at #4. We have a crescent kick, but it's pretty much never used (and I stopped teaching it some time ago). This might open up some possibilities with it. Maybe time to reconsider that kick.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Other times, people like to get an idea of how far I can reach with my front kick. Then they will move back just enough to avoid it, to then move back in. When they get comfortable with that distance... I add the pivot, and turn it into a side kick, which reaches them, where the front kick won't.

I do this a lot with folks, and am surprised how few have had this strategy to counter. I think you'd catch me with it more often than I'd like, as I've gotten used to controlling that distance by "just enough".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Another thing is that, like you aready do with the crescent-to-side kick same-leg kick combo, you can conceal what kick is coming in the same manner... i.e. Bill Wallace style. I used a rear leg front kick, same leg roundhouse or side kick combo very effectively IMO for years as people would generally commit to defending/blocking (or attempting to) the front kick because it wasn't a fake, it was really coming in. I found it easy to rechamber the front kick with a hip shift/pivot and change the rechamber arc so as to get in position for the follow up kick. Same theory/principle as you already use in the crescent to side kick combo.Agree witht he above, even if you're really good/fast it's difficult to land a rear leg kick of any variety unless your set-up (including movement) is really, really good

NGA from the start teaches side and round kicks (on the rear leg) with a chamber intended to mimic a front kick, for just this purpose. I suspect either the founder or the guy who brought it to the US was a prolific kicker. Oddly, the kicks get very little use by most folks.

 

[dvcochran]

NGA from the start teaches side and round kicks (on the rear leg) with a chamber intended to mimic a front kick, for just this purpose. I suspect either the founder or the guy who brought it to the US was a prolific kicker. Oddly, the kicks get very little use by most folks.

Does NGA tend to fight in an open or closed stance?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Does NGA tend to fight in an open or closed stance?

I don't know those terms. We tend to use a 45-degree (parallel feet) stance as the starting point for sparring.