Reality check... would the world implode if you couldnt get Kukkiwon certification?

[dancingalone]

Again, I don't know about the idea that everyone should get it, more so the idea that I think everyone should have access to it. That is the big problem, people who want it but do not have access, or at least that is how they feel, not forcing everyone to get Kukkiwon certification. That is part of the mission statement of USTC, giving people access to the Kukkiwon who otherwise do not have access. It isn't about making everyone get Kukkiwon certification or forcing everyone to accept Kukkiwon certification. Again, if you don't want it, no one is forcing you to get it.

I can agree completely with your first sentence. If that is your position, I can have no quarrel with it. Thank you for clarifying this for me.

 

[puunui]

You don't see the proposition that we should all join in the collective under the KKW as patronizing or arrogant?

Some (not necessarily me) say that it is arrogant to use the name Taekwondo and not adhere to the standards of the organization that adopted the name in the first place, the KTA, and by extension the Kukkiwon and WTF. I hear that comment sometimes. It parallels the argument that if you are not doing the Kukkiwon curriculum up to Kukkiwon standards, then you don't deserve Kukkiwon certification. The idea is that Taekwondo is not a generic term like Karate but instead is a specific term for a specific martial art with a specific curriculum and a specific set of standards. This comes up when we see Taekwondoin wearing red white and blue, stars and stripes satin uniforms, students playing paddle ball instead of training, high fives, positive reinforcement, made up forms, belt factories, no sparring, no contact, face punching, ground grappling, taekwondo aerobics, taekwondo dance, musical forms, the name karate or kung fu on the door, etc.

 

[dancingalone]

That is not what I responded to.

I responded to this:

and said that "I don't see the idea that someone could benefit as patronizing or arrogant."

I did not, however, say that I "don't see the proposition that we should all join in the collective under the KKW as patronizing or arrogant."


How is this being presented as 'this is truth'?

The only time truth has come up was in Terry's 'true taekwondo' thread.

If you are referring to my posts there, I was pretty clear (or at least tried to be) that I was speaking hypothetically and that as far as I am concerned, any taekwondo descended from the five original kwans is true taekwondo.

If you are referring to something that Glenn or someone else said, then they will have respond.

Daniel

Sometimes I think these discussions are more unhelpful than unifying. I may have misunderstood you and if I so I apologize. In any case puunui has clarified his position for me, and I would unreservedly endorse everyone having access to KKW certification and training if they wish.

 

[terryl965]

Daniel simple some of my parent feel strongly about supporting a govorning body that is in a different country, remember some TEXAN'S do not like people from the New York let alone Korea. I do offer it to all that want it and will pay the fee's for it and no I do not have them pay 5,000 for a certificate a first dan is 70.00 and so forth for KKW. My house belt is nothing and if they want AAU it is 100.00.

 

[dancingalone]

Some (not necessarily me) say that it is arrogant to use the name Taekwondo and not adhere to the standards of the organization that adopted the name in the first place, the KTA, and by extension the Kukkiwon and WTF. I hear that comment sometimes. It parallels the argument that if you are not doing the Kukkiwon curriculum up to Kukkiwon standards, then you don't deserve Kukkiwon certification. The idea is that Taekwondo is not a generic term like Karate but instead is a specific term for a specific martial art with a specific curriculum and a specific set of standards. This comes up when we see Taekwondoin wearing red white and blue, stars and stripes satin uniforms, students playing paddle ball instead of training, high fives, positive reinforcement, made up forms, belt factories, no sparring, no contact, face punching, ground grappling, taekwondo aerobics, taekwondo dance, musical forms, the name karate or kung fu on the door, etc.

I'm of the belief like many here that tae kwon do has become a universal term for Korean striking arts. While the various romanizations of the name might have some context personally for me, I can't assume anything if someone tells me verbally that they practice 'TKD'. It could be Korean karate or sport TKD or anything else under the sun for all I know.

 

[d1jinx]

I say we start the KUKKI-CRUSADES....

And convert all non-kukki tkd-in!!! :mst:

:samurai::samurai::samurai::samurai:
:samurai::samurai::samurai::samurai:
:samurai::samurai::samurai::samurai:
:samurai::samurai::samurai::samurai:
:samurai::samurai::samurai::samurai:
:knight::knight::knight::knight:

 

[Kacey]

I don't know if everyone would "benefit", but I do believe that everyone should have access to Kukkiwon certification. It was created to be an inclusive certification for all. But again, if you don't want it, don't get it. No one is forcing you.

I've been training in TKD for 24 years... and I've never had Kukkiwon certification yet, nor have I ever felt a lack. I do have ITF certification through 3rd Dan, that being where I started; my 4th and 5th Dan certification are though Yom Chi, the organization to which I currently belong. I still know a lot of people who are in the ITF, and some of the members of Yom Chi were dually promoted in Yom Chi and the ITF, because that is important to them, or to their students, some of whom compete in the ITF. We are affiliated with several organizations whose members were originally with the ITF/USTF, and we go to each other's events - tournaments, seminars, and testings. Should anything happen to my organization, I know enough seniors in other organizations who practice the same things we do that it would not be difficult for me to transfer and take my rank with me; some of them were kind enough to be present at my last testing.

At 48, I figure I'm good for at least another 30 years of active training, maybe more if I don't count sparring competitively. I'm in a KKW school, and I can't guarantee my school and master will be here as long as I will. I'd rather have it than not.

I do understand the other side though...same idea as it doesn't matter what color belt you wear because your training is what's inside you...not cloth or paper.

If you are in a Kukkiwon school, then yes, I can see the validity of a Kukkiwon certificate. But if you're not in a Kukkiwon school, getting a Kukkiwon certificate for the sake of having one may or may not make sense. If you, or your students, will be participating in Kukkiwon events, then I can see a value to it; if not, I see no point in having it.

 

[terryl965]

That has always been my position. The shenanigans are what we are trying to fix. I understand that people are getting and got ripped off, lied to, and cheated regarding their Kukkiwon certification. There is much bitterness out there regarding this. I believe in the Kukkiwon and believe that its programs and certification should be accessible to all.

OK I can completely agree with this and I guess I am one of those people that I have had blinders on with you. If I would have really understood this we could have had a better dialog here on MT.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Last year, I and a whole lot of other people (including miguksaram) went on a free tour of Korea (all you had to pay was airfare and the tour people took care of the rest). Anyway, there was one gentleman there who had a dojang 7th Dan and a Kukkiwon 2nd Dan. He had been training for I think 40 or more years. He was a nice guy, but you could tell that he was bothered by the fact that he did not possess Kukkiwon certification commensurate with his years of training. People can go the sour grapes route and say that it doesn't mean anything, but for a lot of people, if they were honest, would admit that they desire Kukkiwon certification immensely. Some people out there do all sorts of crazy things to obtain Kukkiwon certification.

I think it is extremely narrow minded to say that people who dont find it necessary to have a kukki cert are "on the sour grapes route". This is where it breaks down, you fail to understand that for thousands and thousands of people world wide there is no reason to have one and they simply couldnt care less about possessing one. Its not sour grapes, its not that their GM has 'tricked' them into thinking one is not necessary, its not because they cant get one etc. The bottom line is, they just dont want/require one. The way you go on about them you'd think they were a solid gold plaque, wich if not in your possession you are forbidden from doing any form of tkd anywhere. Basically, if you dont compete at wtf events it is nothing more than a cheap piece of cardboard, signed by someone who has never even watched you perform any tkd whatsoever.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

No I don't. I have repeatedly said that if you do not want Kukkiwon certification, fine don't get it. Again, please do not misrepresent me or my position on anything.

True, but then you try and insinuate that the reason they dont is because of 'sour grapes' or because their GM has fed them a line. SOME PEOPLE JUST DONT
PLACE ANY VALUE ON IT. You say everyone should have access to it, based on that should everyone also have access to an ITF cert or a cert from every other org out there, or do you just feel we should all unite providing its only under the kukki. You have made refernces to me in regards to "what I do is closer to the kukki than I think". What are you basing this on? I have mentioned we do different forms, you dont know what our grading requirements are, you dont know anything about the self defence techs we are taught, basically you know nothing of our curriculum except that I mentioned we sometimes spar using the WTF ruleset. So how can you have any idea whatsoever about how close I actually am to the kukki? All I can go on is that EVERY time a kukki student comes and starts at our school the first thing they comment on is how vastly different our club is to what they are used to, and this has happened many , many times. Im not saying what we do is better or worse, but i think you are jumping to conclusions by saying we are closer to the kukki than I think, particularly considering how little you know of my club. No disrespect, but the references to the non affiliated having "sour grapes" is very patronising. We arent idiots, we weigh up the pros and cons and make an educated decision, we are not members of a cult blindly following everything our GM tells us.

 

[puunui]

I think it is extremely narrow minded to say that people who dont find it necessary to have a kukki cert are "on the sour grapes route".

I think it is extremely narrow minded to personalize this to yourself when I was obviously was talking about the gentleman in my story. For him, obviously it was a sour grapes situation. How would you feel, in the company of some very Kukkiwon senior dan holders (including a former president of Taekwondo Australia, who was on the trip that brought back the first hogu from Japan to Korea), visiting the Kukkiwon, getting Kukkiwon awards and citations, and instead of having a Kukkiwon 7th Dan, you have a dojang 7th Dan and a Kukkiwon 2nd Dan. He spoke about it briefly, but it was obvious that it bothered him. I don't know if he blamed his teacher (who was also on the trip) or himself, but he obviously was upset about it, from many different ways.

And just to underline that I wasn't speaking about everyone, here is my statement where people CAN go that route, which obviously they CAN do: "People can go the sour grapes route...."

And I sincerely hope that the story I told doesn't end up becoming your story 40 years from now. But again, it is your decision and your choice. If you don't want Kukkiwon certification, don't get it. I won't lose any sleep over it.

 

[puunui]

You have made refernces to me in regards to "what I do is closer to the kukki than I think". What are you basing this on? I have mentioned we do different forms, you dont know what our grading requirements are, you dont know anything about the self defence techs we are taught, basically you know nothing of our curriculum except that I mentioned we sometimes spar using the WTF ruleset. So how can you have any idea whatsoever about how close I actually am to the kukki? All I can go on is that EVERY time a kukki student comes and starts at our school the first thing they comment on is how vastly different our club is to what they are used to, and this has happened many , many times. Im not saying what we do is better or worse, but i think you are jumping to conclusions by saying we are closer to the kukki than I think, particularly considering how little you know of my club.

Ok, fine, what you are doing doesn't fall within the realm of Kukki Taekwondo. In fact, I think what you do is so different, that it is probably a good idea that you DON'T get Kukkiwon certification. What do you need it for, right?

 

[msmitht]

My good friend has a son training in tkd in san diego. The kid took his bb exam in november. Did taeguek 7 & 8. Did some kind of sparring and broke a board. He got a school cert and nothing else. The family then moved to oceanside and the gm at his new school said "no kukkiwon? White belt."
I started a thread called "wow" about a group of kids who came to me seeking certification. Read that for more info.
Personally I go to a diamond dealer when I want a good diamond. Home depot for glass.
If your school is teaching kukkiwon poomsae, kukkiwon kibon and kyoroogi then YES they should expect a kukkiwon cert. Otherwise the teacher is a fraud and should go back to their root art.
If you do other styles of tkd then that organizations cert should be enough for you. If you want a kkw cert then find a kkw 4th dan or higher and start training.
Btw troubleenough, is your name shaun by any chance?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Ok, fine, what you are doing doesn't fall within the realm of Kukki Taekwondo. In fact, I think what you do is so different, that it is probably a good idea that you DON'T get Kukkiwon certification. What do you need it for, right?

Thats the point Ive been trying to make for the past 2 weeks. IF I did something that slightly resembled kukki tkd then I would see why having a kukki cert could oneday come in handy, BUT considering I dont then I really dont see any point.

 

[leadleg]

Thats the point Ive been trying to make for the past 2 weeks. IF I did something that slightly resembled kukki tkd then I would see why having a kukki cert could oneday come in handy, BUT considering I dont then I really dont see any point.

I should stay out of this but cannot help myself, if you do the palgwe's,they are KKW forms, they may not use them anymore but those of us that learned them still do,because they are our old KKW forms. You do Koryo and other yudanja forms,I think you said, those are KKW. You do a style of your own sparring based on WTF, you use Koeran terminology for your kicks,they are TKD just like KKW,so even if you don't see it you are very closely resembling KKW. That is because at one time a long time ago your school was KKW.
You say people come to your school from other KKW schools and say things are very different, people come from KKW schools to mine and say the same thing.All schools are different,we share the same forms,and teminology but our s/d and routines may differ greatly.
Have you ever trained at another school? I just wonder if all your experience is what your instructors say or what you have personally experienced.
Tell us what specifically sets you apart from other tkd schools,that would be so different to what ,say I do.
Kicking drills, sparring, s/d, poomse, free sparring, hand striking drills ,breaking..........

 

[leadleg]

Daniel simple some of my parent feel strongly about supporting a govorning body that is in a different country, remember some TEXAN'S do not like people from the New York let alone Korea. I do offer it to all that want it and will pay the fee's for it and no I do not have them pay 5,000 for a certificate a first dan is 70.00 and so forth for KKW. My house belt is nothing and if they want AAU it is 100.00.

Your house belt should be free,the aau should pay you for the advertisment,with that you should get all your bb's kkw. Texans who still resent a foreign country should have their kids doing barrel races and going to rodeo clown school,not that there kairotty.
I was born in FT.Worth,grew up in White Settlement Texas and by god I hate redknecks.

 

[leadleg]

I'm of the belief like many here that tae kwon do has become a universal term for Korean striking arts. While the various romanizations of the name might have some context personally for me, I can't assume anything if someone tells me verbally that they practice 'TKD'. It could be Korean karate or sport TKD or anything else under the sun for all I know.

If they are KKW you can assume at least they should know those specific requirements.
That does not mean they have had quality instructors though.Nor does it mean someone did not hand them a certificate either.But if they earned that certificate they know how to fit in and train at any TKD school.
When we hire carpenters we get all kinds of people who say they are carpenters,some because they own a hammer,some are good,but if they have a union card we know they at least know what the union teaches.That still doesn't mean they will be great,just that they were taught certain basic skills and will be able to fit in our work environment.
When a BBelt wants to start with us I ask if they are KKW if not I don't even ask to see a certificate,that is the only one that matters to me.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I should stay out of this but cannot help myself, if you do the palgwe's,they are KKW forms, they may not use them anymore but those of us that learned them still do,because they are our old KKW forms. You do Koryo and other yudanja forms,I think you said, those are KKW. You do a style of your own sparring based on WTF, you use Koeran terminology for your kicks,they are TKD just like KKW,so even if you don't see it you are very closely resembling KKW. That is because at one time a long time ago your school was KKW.
You say people come to your school from other KKW schools and say things are very different, people come from KKW schools to mine and say the same thing.All schools are different,we share the same forms,and teminology but our s/d and routines may differ greatly.
Have you ever trained at another school? I just wonder if all your experience is what your instructors say or what you have personally experienced.
Tell us what specifically sets you apart from other tkd schools,that would be so different to what ,say I do.
Kicking drills, sparring, s/d, poomse, free sparring, hand striking drills ,breaking..........

well firstly, kicking drills, sparring, s/d, poomsae, free sparring, hand striking drills, breaking.................are all things done at most schools, I did all those things when I did karate as a kid. We dont use korean words for kicks. In fact, in manny's posts where he talks about kicks using korean names I cant understand a thing. Our time in dan grades is different. we dont have "skip dans". I had never heard the term 'poomsae' until I came here. Punches in sparring are expected to be delivered as often as kicks, maybe even more. We dont do points sparring (we tried at the club championships but it didnt really work). I have trained with kukki guys and what they do looks different , particularly the shorter stances, our stances are always very deep similar to when I did karate as a kid. they also have a much bigger emphasis on higher kicks than we do, all our kicking drills are aimed between the knee and solar plexus, if we want to practice head kicks we do it in our own time. As for our instructors, they never bag out on the kukki, in fact they dont even discuss politics, orgs etc. We just get there and train and dont worry about that stuff. As I said recently, when discussing the kukki with a 4th dan at my club recently, he replied "whats a kukkiwon?", he wasnt trying to be disrespectful, he had just never heard of them. Im not saying we are completely different to a kukki club, but I would be way out of my depth in one, it would take me so long to try and learn a new form set alone that I may as well just start over at white belt. The shorter stances (do you call them walking stance in the kukki?, Ive been told about a 'walking stance' but have never done one to my knowledge) in the taegeks would be hard to learn after getting 30 push ups everytime my stance is too short for the last 5 years.

 

[puunui]

Thats the point Ive been trying to make for the past 2 weeks. IF I did something that slightly resembled kukki tkd then I would see why having a kukki cert could oneday come in handy, BUT considering I dont then I really dont see any point.

then don't get it.

 

[puunui]

well firstly, kicking drills, sparring, s/d, poomsae, free sparring, hand striking drills, breaking.................are all things done at most schools, I did all those things when I did karate as a kid. We dont use korean words for kicks. In fact, in manny's posts where he talks about kicks using korean names I cant understand a thing. Our time in dan grades is different. we dont have "skip dans". I had never heard the term 'poomsae' until I came here. Punches in sparring are expected to be delivered as often as kicks, maybe even more. We dont do points sparring (we tried at the club championships but it didnt really work). I have trained with kukki guys and what they do looks different , particularly the shorter stances, our stances are always very deep similar to when I did karate as a kid. they also have a much bigger emphasis on higher kicks than we do, all our kicking drills are aimed between the knee and solar plexus, if we want to practice head kicks we do it in our own time. As for our instructors, they never bag out on the kukki, in fact they dont even discuss politics, orgs etc. We just get there and train and dont worry about that stuff. As I said recently, when discussing the kukki with a 4th dan at my club recently, he replied "whats a kukkiwon?", he wasnt trying to be disrespectful, he had just never heard of them. Im not saying we are completely different to a kukki club, but I would be way out of my depth in one, it would take me so long to try and learn a new form set alone that I may as well just start over at white belt. The shorter stances (do you call them walking stance in the kukki?, Ive been told about a 'walking stance' but have never done one to my knowledge) in the taegeks would be hard to learn after getting 30 push ups everytime my stance is too short for the last 5 years.

Maybe your group should change the name of its art to Karate, since that is what you seem to be doing. I mean if what you are doing is so completely unrecognizable to Kukki Taekwondoin, then perhaps a name change is in order. You can't have your cake and eat it too.