Reality check... would the world implode if you couldnt get Kukkiwon certification?

[ralphmcpherson]

Maybe your group should change the name of its art to Karate, since that is what you seem to be doing. I mean if what you are doing is so completely unrecognizable to Kukki Taekwondoin, then perhaps a name change is in order. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Perhaps the ITF should change their name also, as they seem different to kukki. And didnt dancingalone say recently that he doesnt train high/spinning kicks? so maybe he needs a name change also. I know, lets change every club's name from tkd unless they are kukki affiliated. I know someone who'd love that idea actually I appreciate that viewpoint because Ive always been told 'old school' tkd looked very similar to karate, and I have said here for ages that what we do I consider to be 'old school' tkd, so it looks like thats pretty accurate.

 

[Bruno@MT]

On the issue of devaluation, what someone else has has no bearing or effect on you or me. Comparing yourself to others is not the martial arts way; comparing yourself to what you can be is the martial arts way.

Not quite. I agree that you should worry about what you can be. In that we agree.
But when it comes to certification, it matters what other people do because they devalue the certification. If people get their certification very easily and it becomes just a matter of paying the fee, then the certificate is cheapened to the point where it becomes insignificant.

This is true in business world as well.
Cisco for example has several levels of certification. Anyone with a bit of motivation can get the first one. They even teach it in some schools and organize the testing so that practically everyone has it. It doesn't matter what the certificate means to you. If it makes you feel great then good for you. But for the purpose of certification, the CCNA is not impressive.

The one certification that everybody in that business craves is the CCIE. It is the last one to get, you have to prove yourself in a written exam and in the 'torture room' with people asking you to make the most hare brained configurations with exotic protocols and equipment. those tests are all done in person in front of a board, and the pass rate is under 10%, with many people needing several tried to make it. And then you need to recertify regularly.

As a certification, that one is worth its weight in 1000 dollar bills. Because that is what you'll be earning if you make it. Very few people do, and the ones that do are the cream of the networking crop. I've worked with one of them. He charged 2000 euros per 8 hour day.

It is irrelevant how you feel about your certification. The only important feature of certification is how it influences other people. Otherwise there would not need to be any certification at all.

 

[andyjeffries]

remember some TEXAN'S do not like people from the New York let alone Korea.

Absolutely horrifying! Sometimes I complain about England, but at least racism/xenophobia like that is really a thing of the past (restricted to those over 60-70 really).

 

[andyjeffries]

I loaded them on 6 JAN (missed the 5 jan Print date) and was expecting them right after the 20th print date. But here it is the 2nd of FEB and still not processed yet. And they are closed till the 5th. Sheez. I got spoiled when they started popping them out within 2-3 weeks. Now I am having panic attacks of the days when it took 3 months to get them back......:erg:

Weird... My grandmaster applied for my latest one in late December, we also missed the 5th print but it was sent after the 20th and I'm currently chasing DHL to get the darn thing delivered to the correct address. Maybe it's you? ;-) ;-)

 

[terryl965]

Absolutely horrifying! Sometimes I complain about England, but at least racism/xenophobia like that is really a thing of the past (restricted to those over 60-70 really).

It was meant as a joke,,,

 

[Dirty Dog]

On the issue of devaluation, what someone else has has no bearing or effect on you or me. Comparing yourself to others is not the martial arts way; comparing yourself to what you can be is the martial arts way.

Which is exactly why some (many?) really mean it when we say that kukki certification is irrelvent.

 

[andyjeffries]

It was meant as a joke,,,

I assumed you were serious, I can only go on how us Brits view you Texans ;-)





(the irony is also a joke and was intended before anyone jumps on me)

 

[Tez3]

I assumed you were serious, I can only go on how us Brits view you Texans ;-)





(the irony is also a joke and was intended before anyone jumps on me)

:lol: It's just been on the news that they are bringing the Dallas series back! Seriously!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-12342985

it formed every non Texans opinion on Texas lol

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Maybe your group should change the name of its art to Karate, since that is what you seem to be doing.

Probably because he's not the school owner.

I mean if what you are doing is so completely unrecognizable to Kukki Taekwondoin, then perhaps a name change is in order. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I doubt that it is unrecognizable to a KKW practitioner, depending upon their age. Older practitioners like ourselves might recognize it as being taekwondo with a karate feel, something that seems to be present in most, if not all, of the US. You would call it a noncompliant school.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

well firstly, kicking drills, sparring, s/d, poomsae, free sparring, hand striking drills, breaking.................are all things done at most schools, I did all those things when I did karate as a kid. We dont use korean words for kicks. In fact, in manny's posts where he talks about kicks using korean names I cant understand a thing. Our time in dan grades is different. we dont have "skip dans". I had never heard the term 'poomsae' until I came here. Punches in sparring are expected to be delivered as often as kicks, maybe even more. We dont do points sparring (we tried at the club championships but it didnt really work). I have trained with kukki guys and what they do looks different , particularly the shorter stances, our stances are always very deep similar to when I did karate as a kid. they also have a much bigger emphasis on higher kicks than we do, all our kicking drills are aimed between the knee and solar plexus, if we want to practice head kicks we do it in our own time. As for our instructors, they never bag out on the kukki, in fact they dont even discuss politics, orgs etc. We just get there and train and dont worry about that stuff. As I said recently, when discussing the kukki with a 4th dan at my club recently, he replied "whats a kukkiwon?", he wasnt trying to be disrespectful, he had just never heard of them. Im not saying we are completely different to a kukki club, but I would be way out of my depth in one, it would take me so long to try and learn a new form set alone that I may as well just start over at white belt. The shorter stances (do you call them walking stance in the kukki?, Ive been told about a 'walking stance' but have never done one to my knowledge) in the taegeks would be hard to learn after getting 30 push ups everytime my stance is too short for the last 5 years.

What I am reading is that your school uses English terms, was either a KKW school at one time or someone along the way learned palgwes and it stuck, but either way is independent now, and that Shotokan-like deep stances were picked up somewhere along the line.

Korean terminology is an easy enough fix. Google 'taekwondo terminology' and you'll find plenty of printable termonology lists.

As for the shorter stances, no they are not walking stances. They are front stances, back stances, etc. but they are not performed as deeply as are done in Shotokan.

Perhaps the ITF should change their name also, as they seem different to kukki. And didnt dancingalone say recently that he doesnt train high/spinning kicks? so maybe he needs a name change also. I know, lets change every club's name from tkd unless they are kukki affiliated.

His comment wasn't about KKW affiliation but about what you do being so different and more similar to 'karate.' The fact that you are doing Kukkiwon forms (Palgwe pumse) is at least one of the reasons why he advocates you seeking a KKW cert. Whether or not that is reason enough for you is your call.

I know someone who'd love that idea actually I appreciate that viewpoint because Ive always been told 'old school' tkd looked very similar to karate, and I have said here for ages that what we do I consider to be 'old school' tkd, so it looks like thats pretty accurate.

Old school TKD is similar to karate: Which karate? Okinawan or Japanese? And then which ryu? Karate has far more distinct 'styles' under its banner than Taekwondo does. The question is rhetorical; I'm not pressing you for an answer. But some karate ryus look very, very different, so saying that it looks like karate is not particularly specific.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

....or someone along the way learned palgwes and it stuck, but either way is independent now, and that Shotokan-like deep stances were picked up somewhere along the line.
....
As for the shorter stances, no they are not walking stances. They are front stances, back stances, etc. but they are not performed as deeply as are done in Shotokan.

As an aside, I viewed various versions of the Palgwe forms on Youtube last night as a result of participating on another thread. It is very common to see deeper stances in their performance compared to the Taegeuk. Are these people definitely out of compliance with KKW standards? I know puunui has said the Palgwe were intended to have the same high stances as the Taegeuk.

 

[d1jinx]

The shorter stances (do you call them walking stance in the kukki?, Ive been told about a 'walking stance' but have never done one to my knowledge) in the taegeks would be hard to learn after getting 30 push ups everytime my stance is too short for the last 5 years.

Do you walk normally or take long stretched out strides when moving about freely during the day and through-out life? If you walk normally, then you have done a walking stance since you were big enough to walk.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As an aside, I viewed various versions of the Palgwe forms on Youtube last night as a result of participating on another thread. It is very common to see deeper stances in their performance compared to the Taegeuk. Are these people definitely out of compliance with KKW standards? I know puunui has said the Palgwe were intended to have the same high stances as the Taegeuk.

While I am not in a position to answer authoritatively regarding Palgwe pumse, I believe that the answer is yes.

I think that a lot of people in that time period adopted the deep stances because of the visibility of karate and because the deep stances served to strengthen the legs, particularly in the US, where karate was a known quantity and nobody knew what taekwondo was.

Daniel

 

[d1jinx]

Weird... My grandmaster applied for my latest one in late December, we also missed the 5th print but it was sent after the 20th and I'm currently chasing DHL to get the darn thing delivered to the correct address. Maybe it's you? ;-) ;-)

Each country is different. I loaded mine after Dec and after Jan 5th. Never had an issue before. I bet they come dated 5 Feb. and it would still be the same amount of time that you guys waited... about a month.

 

[dancingalone]

If they are KKW you can assume at least they should know those specific requirements.
That does not mean they have had quality instructors though.Nor does it mean someone did not hand them a certificate either.But if they earned that certificate they know how to fit in and train at any TKD school.
When we hire carpenters we get all kinds of people who say they are carpenters,some because they own a hammer,some are good,but if they have a union card we know they at least know what the union teaches.That still doesn't mean they will be great,just that they were taught certain basic skills and will be able to fit in our work environment.
When a BBelt wants to start with us I ask if they are KKW if not I don't even ask to see a certificate,that is the only one that matters to me.

No offense intended, but that's the exact kind of snobbery that can be off-putting. It should suffice to say that KKW certification is relevant to YOU because it can be a measure of sorts for the physical skills important to YOUR practice of TKD.

Others can and do find differently, in which case another certification (or even none) might be more preferable to them.

 

[andyjeffries]

Each country is different. I loaded mine after Dec and after Jan 5th. Never had an issue before. I bet they come dated 5 Feb. and it would still be the same amount of time that you guys waited... about a month.

Well, keeping my fingers crossed that they come through soon for you. Hopefully at least my message should at least reassure you that they aren't back to the delays of old...

 

[puunui]

Perhaps the ITF should change their name also, as they seem different to kukki.

So you want to keep the name Taekwondo, train using the Kukkiwon poomsae, spar using the WTF rules, and yet you say you are not part of Kukki Taekwondo?

 

[puunui]

As an aside, I viewed various versions of the Palgwe forms on Youtube last night as a result of participating on another thread. It is very common to see deeper stances in their performance compared to the Taegeuk. Are these people definitely out of compliance with KKW standards? I know puunui has said the Palgwe were intended to have the same high stances as the Taegeuk.

There are no walking stances in the palgwae poomsae, but there are front stance and back stance, which should be performed the same in the taeguek and palgwae poomsae.

 

[puunui]

But when it comes to certification, it matters what other people do because they devalue the certification. If people get their certification very easily and it becomes just a matter of paying the fee, then the certificate is cheapened to the point where it becomes insignificant.

But then who is to determine what the standards are for certification? You? If someone wishes to promote another person to a specified rank, who are you to argue about it? What if you are promoting students to dan rank and another instructor starts criticizing you saying that your standards are too low and and that you are cheapening and devaluing the dan rank. Is his statement valid? I think that if someone is dumb enough to buy rank, then it devalues the person who bought rank, not the certification.

It is irrelevant how you feel about your certification. The only important feature of certification is how it influences other people.

Tell that to the guy who has the dojang 7th Dan and Kukkiwon 2nd Dan.

Otherwise there would not need to be any certification at all.

We just might be moving to a situation where that might become a possibility.

 

[puunui]

Which is exactly why some (many?) really mean it when we say that kukki certification is irrelvent.

Then don't get Kukkiwon certification, assuming you are able and have access.