troubleenuf
Blue Belt
Seriously... if you couldn't get Kukkiwon certificate would it REALY effect you? Come on... be honest.
Reality check... would the world implode if you couldnt get Kukkiwon certification?
- Thread starter troubleenuf
- Start date
Last year, I and a whole lot of other people (including miguksaram) went on a free tour of Korea (all you had to pay was airfare and the tour people took care of the rest). Anyway, there was one gentleman there who had a dojang 7th Dan and a Kukkiwon 2nd Dan. He had been training for I think 40 or more years. He was a nice guy, but you could tell that he was bothered by the fact that he did not possess Kukkiwon certification commensurate with his years of training. People can go the sour grapes route and say that it doesn't mean anything, but for a lot of people, if they were honest, would admit that they desire Kukkiwon certification immensely. Some people out there do all sorts of crazy things to obtain Kukkiwon certification.
troubleenuf
Blue Belt
I understand that but can you tell me why? I think it is because we have been told since we first started training that the Kukkiwon certificate was "it". 30 years ago if you had one you were "special". But is that true anymore? I know of people who have been jumped up in rank simply because they had the right connections, and yes they got Kukkiwon certificates for it. It kind of devalues it.
I believe he was told that Kukkiwon certification wasn't special, that he didn't need it, that the sweet lemon certificate signed by his teacher was more valuable, and all the rest of the sour grape justifications why someone doesn't need or want Kukkiwon certification. Now 40 years later, he feels differently. You could tell that he was deeply affected by it, that it seriously bothered him on the inside. People want to feel connected, they want to feel like they are a part of something, for him especially since his instructor has retired.
On the issue of devaluation, what someone else has has no bearing or effect on you or me. Comparing yourself to others is not the martial arts way; comparing yourself to what you can be is the martial arts way.
On this particular subject, I was never told that the Kukkiwon certification was "it". Our instructor simply got everyone Kukkiwon certification. There was no discussion, no big decision to make; we were just handed our Kukkiwon certificates and that was it. The instructors back then, at least where I grew up, didn't even think about issuing certification in their own name. I have friends from the Kukkiwon, Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and ITF schools from that era, and they all got the official certificate, whatever that official certificate was. No one got certificates signed by their instructors.
And now it is the same with me. I would never think of issuing my own dan or poom certificate in my own name.
d1jinx
Master Black Belt
YES
WOW have you not had your KKW today?
Given that my primary arts are hapkido and kumdo, not really.... but I already have a Kukkiwon certificate, as I have spent a substantial amount of time in taekwondo.
My first dan Kukkiwon cert is one that I am extremely proud of, more because of what it represents to me. Inspite of my build; short torso and long legs, I am not a natural kicker and my hand strikes are what I consider to be so-so compared to others. I was the tall, very skinny and uncoordinated kid growing up, so becoming proficient in taekwondo and earning that certificate is one of my top ten personal accomplishments, primarilly because of the amount of work that I had to do to get to where I could really legitimately pass the test. My martial arts journey was also broken up by real life events along the way, so any progress that I would make would have to be partially remade after things settled down and I could resume formal classes again.
Having said all that, I think people getting up in arms about KKW certification need to look at what KKW certification actually is before getting up in arms. We already have about ten threads going at once which have arguments over KKW certification going on within them.
Kukkiwon certification does not require you to don hogu and try out for the olympics. It does not require you to stop practicing your Chang Hon tuls, Pyung-ahn hyung, or Palgwe pumse. It does not require you to lose the hapkido hoshinsul that you learned from your GM twenty years ago, and it does not require you to wear a vee neck dobok.
All that it does is register you with the Kukkiwon. The only thing that you should do is learn eight little forms called Taegeuk pumse, which are literally little forms. But if you don't, there's no Kukki spooks coming to grab you, stick a bag over your head, and drive you to a secret Kukki compound to waterboard you until you agree to learn them.
But having a KKW certificate benefits you by opening up circles to you that may have been previously closed. Should your school go under (not unlikely given the current economic climb), finding another Kukki dojang where you can pick up where you left off is easy, showing the instructor your KKW cert tells him or her approximately where you are and what you likely know so that you can jump into class and do what it is you really want to: train.
Not rocket science.
The main reason that Glenn promotes it to the degree that he does (aside from that it seems to be his passion) is because having it will only benefit you, if for no other reason than portability of rank. A school being able to issue it only helps its students.
If you don't want it, then find, you don't want it. But as the saying goes, better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
And if the world does implode, it won't be on me.
Daniel
d1jinx
Master Black Belt
Actually now that you mention it, I have been waiting a little too long for these damn certs. I loaded them on 6 JAN (missed the 5 jan Print date) and was expecting them right after the 20th print date. But here it is the 2nd of FEB and still not processed yet. And they are closed till the 5th. Sheez. I got spoiled when they started popping them out within 2-3 weeks. Now I am having panic attacks of the days when it took 3 months to get them back......:erg:
As for the Subject.... I just put the first thing that came to mind!!!
QFT
Many people like being part of something bigger than themselves and their own sandbox. If you do not have that particular need, then that's great! But many people do.
Daniel
Daniel you are right but the one thing that Glen does is put certain people down just because they do not see value in it. My KKW means something and that is my instructor thought I was worthy enough for it, plan and simple. We offer them but not everybody wants one and that is fine as well, I also have students that train but do not wish to belt test and that is ok with me. I know this does not compute with others but it does with me, I wish the KKW had more meaning than it does a cross.
No I don't. I have repeatedly said that if you do not want Kukkiwon certification, fine don't get it. Again, please do not misrepresent me or my position on anything.
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
I think to me 'it's like asking if I miss having a two headed dog: the answer would be no. But then again, I have so many black belts, they don't really hold any value to me either. Just another stepping stone in the journey of life. But a KKW certificate to hang on the wall...<shrug> I am sure it's pretty...
And frankly, some of the surrounding drama is off putting....so this old lady will likely not get one...
And frankly, some of the surrounding drama is off putting....so this old lady will likely not get one...
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Everything you just said could also be said for ATA or ITF or depending on your locale, Jhoon Rhee, GTF, ITA, CTF, etc. Just saying.
I appreciate puunui's passion in promoting his form of TKD and I enjoy his participation on the forum. That said I utterly reject the default assumption you and he hold that it is better to have KKW certification than not. It is a tool like anything else - of use to those who can use it, useless to those who cannot. And it is only one brand out of a competing group of dozens. Do we go out and buy a Ginsu knife to have in our homes just in case, if we already have a perfectly functional knife already? Using the same logic, it is not also of utility to go out and get ITF certification because we just might find ourselves in Poland or Vietnam someday where ITF TKD is strong?
Being "worthy enough" has nothing to do with it. Everyone should have access to Kukkiwon certification, no matter who they are.
To be fair, Glenn also gets flack for simply suggesting that people would benefit from it and that there is no reason not to have one.
Why not simply just issue KKW certs when students pass BB? No offense, but it doesn't make sense for a KKW school to issue a non KKW cert.
Not wanting to test is a different subject from that of not wanting KKW certification.
Daniel
Just curious, but what type of Taekwondo certification do you give to your own students? Any particular organization that you go through? How about for Okinawan Goju Ryu?
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