Real Tae Kwon Do

[terryl965]

Is there such a thing really, are most of us old timers being looked upon as a dinosour in the Art we love. Why is it in other styles people with thirty forty years of dedication is looked upon has great people but in TKD it is who you know and not what you know. I would like to have a decussion about the oldtimers that have been farwned upon by the youth of TKD.

 

[Twin Fist]

the KKW and the WTF

thats the source of all the evil in TKD

the want to re-write history and anyone that follows something PRE KKW is the enemy

 

[exile]

the KKW and the WTF

thats the source of all the evil in TKD

the want to re-write history and anyone that follows something PRE KKW is the enemy

I gotta say, I'm pretty cynical about the way the ROK has basically defined all TKD except its 'current model' as non-TKD—as though it were a brand name that the current management of the Korean TKD directorate owned the rights to. I understand why they want to do it—who wouldn't try, in their situation?—but I see no historical justification whatever for it.

Just take the name itself. 'Taekwondo' was due, by general agreement, to one of two people: General Choi or Gm. Song Duk Son. And neither of them wound up associated with the KKW. The ITF was Gen. Choi's creation, but Gm. Song also established his own, non-KKW group, the World Taekwondo Association. Both left Korea. By what right, one wonders, did the WTF decide that it owned the name? Simply by the brute-force assertion that proper application of the name Taekwondo was discretionary with whatever South Korean quasi-governmental agency was responsible for oversight of the 'Kwan synthesis' art that began to emerge in the 1950s and early '60s? That may have been the attitude of the military strongmen, such as Rhee and Park, who ran Korea as brutal dictators during the post-Occupation phase, but is there any reason on earth why it should be given legitimacy?

So far as I can see, there are many different TKDs, including a whole gang of different styles, corresponding to the different Kwan specializations, before the KKW came into existence. And there is Kukki TKD as well. And WTA TKD as well. And ITF TKD. And so on, and on. They're all TKD. Shito-ryu, Shuri-te, Isshin-ryu, Goju-ryu, Wadu-ryu, Kyokuskin, Shotokan, and all the rest... they're all karate, no? Why should TKD be any different? Where is the contradiction in having many different versions of a single overarching idea?

 

[YoungMan]

the KKW and the WTF

thats the source of all the evil in TKD

the want to re-write history and anyone that follows something PRE KKW is the enemy

Absolutely not true, anymore than non-KKW TKD is inherently good.

Simply put, the further you get from the base of the tree, the weaker you get. It doesn't matter what you study.

Anyway, the idea that you think 30-40 years of practice brings you deserved attention is rather arrogant. I've practiced for 25 years, just teach the way I was taught, and if people want to follow me fine.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Youngman, I don't think that either Terry or Twin feel that time in grade should bring one special attention. Rather, I think Terry is noting the desregard of the old timers by newer generation practitioners.

This is a problem: since most instructors aren't going to Korea to hobknob with KKW heads or to take the KKW instructor's certification, the old timers are the very best source of first hand knowledge.

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

Is there such a thing really, are most of us old timers being looked upon as a dinosour in the Art we love. Why is it in other styles people with thirty forty years of dedication is looked upon has great people but in TKD it is who you know and not what you know. I would like to have a decussion about the oldtimers that have been farwned upon by the youth of TKD.

terry, the way things are today in much of CMA, particularly in Taijiquan, I am a dinosaur as well. So it is not just TKD.

But based on my long lost training in TKD, I would say if I was able to stay with it, I would be a dinosaur there as well.

Just keep fighting the good fight and as long as your happy with what you do the hell with the rest.

 

[terryl965]

Youngman, I don't think that either Terry or Twin feel that time in grade should bring one special attention. Rather, I think Terry is noting the desregard of the old timers by newer generation practitioners.

This is a problem: since most instructors aren't going to Korea to hobknob with KKW heads or to take the KKW instructor's certification, the old timers are the very best source of first hand knowledge.

Daniel

I can only echo what Daniel has said what is meant by all of this is the younger generation are forgetting the blood sweet and tears we have put into the Art and the steps we have taken to insure that it stay close to what it once was. Look Youngman you have 25 years in TKD and some whpper snapper just goes and tells you you know nothing how is that right, respect is all but gone from the newer generation.

 

[BrandonLucas]

How far back are you guys seeing this? How long before you're considered a dinosaur in the art? I'm just wondering, because I've only been in for 15 years all total, and I don't want to be lumped in with the younger generation of MAists....

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Brandon, I think a lot has to do with who taught you. Mainsteam TKD is very, very sport oriented. This is disconnect is driven from the top down by the big orgs because old sckool SD based curricula bring no sponsorship dollars. For a student in a typical dojang, there is little perceivedbenefit to paying heed to the older practitioners. Even older tournament champions, because the rule set has evolved such that an older champ's competition style will be old school. For example, my GM is a 1992 Korean national champion who tells us to do everything that Olympic players nowadays don't do, such as keeping your guard up when you spar, guarding your groin when you kick high, effective punching, and lots of it, and to handle yourself more as if you were in an actual fight.

So long as the big orgs are sport focused (read sponsorship dollars focused) and SD is deemphasized, the new school players have little to gain from the old timers. Well, until they find out that they have no SD when they really need it and that the blackbelt they were given when they were twelve was pretty much purchassed to enable them to compete in USAT events.

So in short, being new generation depends more on your lineage and training than your actual time in grade from my perspective.

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

Brandon, I think a lot has to do with who taught you. Mainsteam TKD is very, very sport oriented. This is disconnect is driven from the top down by the big orgs because old sckool SD based curricula bring no sponsorship dollars. For a student in a typical dojang, there is little perceivedbenefit to paying heed to the older practitioners. Even older tournament champions, because the rule set has evolved such that an older champ's competition style will be old school. For example, my GM is a 1992 Korean national champion who tells us to do everything that Olympic players nowadays don't do, such as keeping your guard up when you spar, guarding your groin when you kick high, effective punching, and lots of it, and to handle yourself more as if you were in an actual fight.

So long as the big orgs are sport focused (read sponsorship dollars focused) and SD is deemphasized, the new school players have little to gain from the old timers. Well, until they find out that they have no SD when they really need it and that the blackbelt they were given when they were twelve was pretty much purchassed to enable them to compete in USAT events.

So in short, being new generation depends more on your lineage and training than your actual time in grade from my perspective.

Daniel

Well, I know I've talked a lot of crap about where I live and all, but I can honestly say that I don't know of any TKD dojangs within a 100 mile radius that are of this particular mindset.

I do, however, know of a few McDojangs...but I don't really think the issue with them is what they're being taught, but the amount of money that is spent within the dojang that goes directly to the instructor.

Most of the schools around the Southwest Georgia area are small, unaffiliated schools. The money that is earned by the instructors from these schools goes directly to the instructors instead of paying the different orgs.

Is there a possiblity that the issue is location?

 

[Twin Fist]

Absolutely not true, anymore than non-KKW TKD is inherently good.

Simply put, the further you get from the base of the tree, the weaker you get. It doesn't matter what you study.

Anyway, the idea that you think 30-40 years of practice brings you deserved attention is rather arrogant. I've practiced for 25 years, just teach the way I was taught, and if people want to follow me fine.

Young Man,
You are quite simply WRONG

Exile have proven it The Knuckleheads at the KKW have employed systamatic re-writting of history to further ONE kind of TKD, the kind they teach and they referre to ANYTHING else as "not TKD"


I know you have 25 years invested in the KKW, so it is expected that you will defend them, but the KKW and by extention, the WTF, are responsible for 2 year BB's, 5 year old BB's, strip mall TKD, and worst of all, the watering down of a brutal self defense art into a friggin SPORT where a BB with a clean shot, on an un-expecting victim can barely manage to split the guys lip.......

I know that there are KKW schools out there where the art is still about SELF DEFENSE and not competition, but the are the minority by a HUGE margin.

The KKW and by extension the WTF is the source of everything I see wrong with TKD, and frankly, I dont care if anyone agrees with me.

 

[Spookey]

Simply put, the further you get from the base of the tree, the weaker you get. It doesn't matter what you study.

Youngster I couldnt agree more!

Problem is, except for a hand full of government puppets the RoK Taekwondo is branches of seeds that blew from the tree and started new growth

Taekwondo....Chung Do Kwan, Oh Do Kwan, Ji Do Kwan, Chang Moo Kwan, etc...

Pyong Ahn, Chang-Hon, are the roots, the things the the Kukkiwon has done away with are the trunk of Taekwondo!

You have proven our point. Kukkiwon / WTF is that which is farthest away from the tree~

TAEKWON
Spookey

 

[YoungMan]

The Kukkiwon is not responsible for the proliferation of "strip mall" schools, as there are plenty of instructors who are not Kukkiwon who do that.
That is a result of instructors coming over here and being motivated by money. Nobody, least of all the Kukkiwon, forces them to do that.
The emphasis by the Kukkiwon on sport Taekwondo has been a problem, especially at the expense of traditional technique and power. However, the Hanmadang is one attempt by the Kukkiwon to correct this and show that Korean TKD is not all about sparring. Much of what I see from the Hanmadang is truly impressive.
Twin Fist, many of the actual techniques of Taekwondo are not that old. However, the philosophy and culture of the art date back centuries in Korean history.

 

[miguksaram]

Young Man,
You are quite simply WRONG

Exile have proven it The Knuckleheads at the KKW have employed systamatic re-writting of history to further ONE kind of TKD, the kind they teach and they referre to ANYTHING else as "not TKD"

Right and the ITF has never rewritten any history of the sort. After all Gen Choi, invented the name while escaping a fight at the local geisha house...of course this was after he was held prisoner in a Japanes prison and honed his deadly skills. Or perhaps it was his high rank in Shotokan he received while he trained in Japan for all those years.

Yes, let us just throw out the fact that it was a voluntary meeting which brought the kwan heads together in hopes of developing an art that was to be a repsentation of the Korean spirit. After all they wanted to evolve what they had learned into one system that would eventually become something that was distinctively Korean.

Those "Knuckle Heads" who, by the way are your seniors if you do study any kwan system, are trying to carry on the vision of the pioneers that came before them. But I guess you know better then all of them after all you do the original taekwondo.

So are all of you "dinosaurs" doing "real" taekwondo? Yes you are. You are doing very old version, yet real taekwondo, just like anyone coming into the art as it is today, is doing "real" taekwondo. Look at it like you are working with a typewriter while newer people are enjoying the computer.

 

[Brad Dunne]

If a student / practicioner of what is being taught is labeled TKD, regardless of if it's "Old School" or "New Age" or whatever label one puts on it, if they can't properly defend themselves in the real world then it's nothing more than an exercise in futility. Have we seen schools that fit this discription? I'd wager a resounding yes, but in all fairness to them, they offer what most folks want. Americans are sports nuts and in keeping with this mindset, the Koreans who came here to teach TKD observered that and adjusted their training accordingly. That's how they kept their schools open and the form of TKD as we now know it expanded. Did everybody follow suit? Apparently not, but those instructors either closed their schools or are just fading away. That's why it's so difficult to find them. Now there seems to be a minor transition to reinstate the SD aspects that have been missing to a very large degree from modern day TKD, but it is minor in it's formulation and dosen't mean that it will replace the almighty dollar sports mindset. It's nothing more than a token gesture by the KKW and will soon fall to the wayside, much as the original concepts have done. Todays TKD, it is what it is and I would not place a bet that it will be changing anytime in the near or distant future.

So what can or do you do, if your one of the few who wish TKD can be what it once was? Either keep doing what you currently do and hope that you can make a small difference or rename what you do and keep the focus on SD and be done with it.

 

[BanannaSmoothie]

Young Man,
You are quite simply WRONG

Exile have proven it The Knuckleheads at the KKW have employed systamatic re-writting of history to further ONE kind of TKD, the kind they teach and they referre to ANYTHING else as "not TKD"


I know you have 25 years invested in the KKW, so it is expected that you will defend them, but the KKW and by extention, the WTF, are responsible for 2 year BB's, 5 year old BB's, strip mall TKD, and worst of all, the watering down of a brutal self defense art into a friggin SPORT where a BB with a clean shot, on an un-expecting victim can barely manage to split the guys lip.......

I know that there are KKW schools out there where the art is still about SELF DEFENSE and not competition, but the are the minority by a HUGE margin.

The KKW and by extension the WTF is the source of everything I see wrong with TKD, and frankly, I dont care if anyone agrees with me.

I am in a WTF dojang. The young black belts piss me off, but the training is actually really good for adults, in my dojang at least. I guess my school is one in the minority.

everythign you said though, I agree with. I would just replace WTF with ATA.

 

[Twin Fist]

My TKD comes from Jhoon Rhee. 1959.

WAY before the KKW was even a glimmer in someone's eye. So yes, MY TKD is in fact the ORIGINAL TKD

and YOU are a great example of what I am talking about. not even two months ago, YOU posted "if you are not doing KKW TKD, you are not doing TKD"


pfffft


whatever

Those "Knuckle Heads" who, by the way are your seniors if you do study any kwan system, are trying to carry on the vision of the pioneers that came before them. But I guess you know better then all of them after all you do the original taekwondo.

 

[Twin Fist]

everythign you said though, I agree with. I would just replace WTF with ATA.

I wouldnt REPLACE wtf with ata, but i would sure ADD ata to the mix. I dispise the ata

 

[miguksaram]

My TKD comes from Jhoon Rhee. 1959.

WAY before the KKW was even a glimmer in someone's eye. So yes, MY TKD is in fact the ORIGINAL TKD

and YOU are a great example of what I am talking about. not even two months ago, YOU posted "if you are not doing KKW TKD, you are not doing TKD"


pfffft


whatever

WOW!!! You have been doing TKD since 1959? You ROCK!!...BTW...I love how you keep using that single phrase, that I posted without ever putting up my follow up. Nice spinning. I know I know...I'm a horrible person for putting up facts. BTW..have you ever spoken to GM Rhee on his whole take on it? I would be interested in hearing his thoughts about it all.

 

[miguksaram]

I am in a WTF dojang. The young black belts piss me off, but the training is actually really good for adults, in my dojang at least. I guess my school is one in the minority.

everythign you said though, I agree with. I would just replace WTF with ATA.

If you have children black belts then your school is not a minority, but very much part of the majority. So I guess you should be telling your instructor he's a knuckle head for having kid black belts.