TKD Seniors

[terryl965]

How many TKD senior members do we have here in this forum. I'm talking people who have devoted there life for the art or sport of TKD. I know we have alot of Master's but what about GM? Why do you beleieve we cannot get them involved in a great community like MT?

Looking forward to some pretty interesting decussions.

 

[YoungMan]

Because real Grandmasters are too busy doing, not typing.

 

[dancingalone]

Why do you beleieve we cannot get them involved in a great community like MT?

Not enough to gain personally and too much to lose?

 

[terryl965]

Because real Grandmasters are too busy doing, not typing.

I'm interesting why you would say this, do you not feel theycould give some great insight to training. Or do you believe they see no value, because there is no monatary gain by posting?

 

[Kacey]

I know a GM (IX Dan) who hangs out on an ITF-specific forum, but, while I have mentioned MT to him, he's not interested in a broader forum; he said he doesn't have the time to do it justice.

 

[Last Fearner]

How many TKD senior members do we have here in this forum. I'm talking people who have devoted there life for the art or sport of TKD. I know we have alot of Master's but what about GM? Why do you beleieve we cannot get them involved in a great community like MT?

Looking forward to some pretty interesting decussions.

Master Stoker, :asian:

Setting humility aside, if I may be so bold as to speak my mind freely here, I believe I could offer a few good reasons. Although time is an issue for everyone, I am not convinced that this would be the deciding factor for most Grandmasters. I have dedicated my life to the study of the Martial Art, and I often wonder why I spend as much time on the internet as I do (only a slice of what most regular internet goers do), yet I know many Grandmasters communicate with their instructors and students via e-mails, and often have their own Organizational websites to which they contribute. They usually have webmasters (one of their Black Belts or students) who do most of the work, but they are online from time to time.

I know a GM (IX Dan) who hangs out on an ITF-specific forum, but, while I have mentioned MT to him, he's not interested in a broader forum; he said he doesn't have the time to do it justice.

I think Kacey has hit one of the main concerns here right on the head. Most GMs that I have known are perfectionists, "take charge" kind of people. They would not want to participate unless they felt they could make a major positive difference, which might also mean having more influence over "getting it right" in their eyes - or to "do it justice" as in Kacey's words. They could participate on a part-time basis, but that would not be enough for them. Why do it at all, if you can't give it your all. This could be construed as a "time issue," but I think it is more of control of input too complex to get your message across among such diverse opinions from all levels of participants.

My guess about the three main reasons GMs would stay away from this (or any other open Martial Art forum) would be as follows:

1. They know their knowledge is valuable, and should be learned with deep commitment and respect for the art as well as the student/teacher relationship. They are not likely to want to share much of that knowledge outside their own organization, and even then, the most sought after knowledge and wisdom is shared only with the higher ranks who have been with them the longest, dedicated themselves to that GM, and been loyal, and respectful of the knowledge imparted.

2. I believe that a lack of "courtesy" or respectful treatment from the general population of internet "martial artists" would dissuade most GMs from wanting to participate. Although I seriously do not believe it is due to a personal inflated ego on the part of most of the Masters and Grandmasters. I think most are accustomed to a certain level of decorum, and refined manners extended to teachers and those of higher rank (ooops, I mentioned that dirty word again! ).

This is particularly the case among GMs of Korean nationality (since this is a Taekwondo forum), who are typically raised in a society of proper social etiquette where the very structure of the language changes between contemporaries, from senior to juniors, and junior to seniors. If someone fails to display the courtesy, or respectful manner which is often expected in their society (particularly in their Martial Art), they might smile, bow politely, but then move on - - choosing not to further share any of their insights with those who don't show they value the teacher or the lessons.

As Jesus is quoted in the Bible saying, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Now, before too many people become offended by my quoting this, let me clarify that I am not calling anyone here at MT "dogs," or "swine" (although I am sure that I will be misquoted as such, and probably banished from the site for this horrendous accusation)! However, it is my belief that while every participant currently here at MT might be of the highest character, integrity, and good manners, others who are not, might view these pages, or join in the future. Thus, the pearls of wisdom shared with all of you good people who value the Grandmaster's input, will also be cast before some that do not, and those who might misuse the knowledge.

3. Although I do not believe money and greed to be a factor that would prevent them from participating here, I think economics does play into it. Many people come to the internet to get free information. We can all offer help to one another, but if we really want to pick the brains of genuine, knowledgeable Grandmasters, what are we offering them in return. Why should they give out their hard earned knowledge for free.... or more importantly, why would people pay for lessons at the Dojang, if they can get the same information on-line? Why buy the cow, when you can get the milk for free? Realistically, what good would it do to have GMs here if they didn't offer something more than beginner Black Belts could share, and if they did offer that extra knowledge, it might hurt their business in the long run. I know that many would disagree, and say it "could" help their business for x number of reasons, but if they do not perceive it that way, then they would not bother sharing what they know for free.

One last point I would make. It has been my experience, both in the real world of teaching for 30 years, and in the world of the internet, that not all of the lessons that a Master or Grandmaster truly knows and understands is readily accepted by beginner students and internet gurus. It takes a good deal of personal interaction, often face-to-face, to really teach some of the philosophy, mental discipline, and technical attributes that are often lacking in words contained in these forum posts - - not to mention the hassle of comments taken out of context, intentions misunderstood, rude participants bad-mouthing a well-intentioned Master, and forum Moderators chastising a senior Grandmaster for speaking his mind, and sharing what he knows in the open and honest manner that we would hopefully seek.

I am not including myself in the group of Grandmasters of which you speak, but those of us who teach full-time, and participate in national or international organizations, get enough hassles like those within our own realms - - we don't need it here as well. I prefer to come here and relax.... read a few pleasant posts..... and contribute a little of what I have learned without the negative attitudes, rude comments, and passing of judgment on those who disagree. I was once a mentor here, and I thought some people valued my input, but then I was judged as having a "disturbing undertone" to my posts because of an alleged inflated ego about rank. Not true - - but perceived to be so, thus I am no longer a mentor here. I doubt many GMs would want such drama in their life. As I said at the onset of this post, I hope I can speak my mind freely, and this is my honest opinion.

Who knows, Master Stoker, if the current participants on Martial Talk, all of the Masters and revered experts such as yourself, exile and others, stick around here long enough, perhaps you will become the GMs that participate in internet forums in the future. The dawn of a new generation of Martial Artists may very well be those who prefer to be on-line!

Respectfully,
Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart

 

[terryl965]

LF very interesting post I must say and can see alot of your points here, I need to sit back and really take this in before replying thank you once again.

 

[Kwan Jang]

As usual LF, well said and I agree.

 

[granfire]

And I thought you was talking about the 'mature' part of the population....

 

[terryl965]

CM Eisenhart,

Who knows, Master Stoker, if the current participants on Martial Talk, all of the Masters and revered experts such as yourself, exile and others, stick around here long enough, perhaps you will become the GMs that participate in internet forums in the future. The dawn of a new generation of Martial Artists may very well be those who prefer to be on-line!


Please do not put me in that relm, I will never be a GM and it took me twenty years to become a Master, I do not hold myself that high. I do agree with most of what you said, nut I have meet some GM that had ne sense of respect for anybody and they where from Korea, all of society have good and bad and that is a shame in it self.

I spend time on this forum because of some of the fine folks that we have here including yourself, can at time do we including myself get harsh with each other sure it is a day to day basis but that is also in the real world conflick builds over time. The one thing I would love to see is GM coming on board and talking about the older days of TKD training and how that compares to today efforts.

I know knowledge is a valueable commodity these days and time a s well but so is giving back to the community and I see MT as a community, With different parts like a major city we have the rich little kids that have to have everything there way, we have the middle class that works 12-14 hours but still manage to keep the family together and the lower class stuggling with themself to be like the rest and it is this society that must bring us all together for the common goood of the city. One cannot live without the rest and we cannot grow without each other.

I absolutely know why my GM will not be here and it is simple his TKD has to be his way and that is selffish in alot of ways but that his him and he feels he will pick and chose who he wants to teach and I respect the mainly because he picked me at one time and that means he saw something that day and as of our last visit he still feel that way because he still teaches me.

I guess in closing I would like to say why why and why id the Art that we love so hard to understand withen ourselfs that we cannot or will not ever see eye to eye on most issues.

I believe we as a art can grow though char lines bit it will not be me leading the way I cannot and will not be that articulit on a chat line and beside a GM never foe testing for me is a thing that will never happen, stripes mean nothing to me, knowledge is my sole desire and inner peace is my objective and MT is a place to chat joke and share a little each and everyday.

 

[Laurentkd]

While I think everyone here has made some awesome points, I think there may be a simpler one as well. You have to be fairly old to be a Grandmaster, and most older people do not spend much time on the internet, nor are internet-savy enough to find their way to something like MT. My Grandmaster is about my parents age or older and my parents need a lot of help from me just to navagate around sites like amazon and ebay. Perhaps an internet forum is just not a culture that grandmasters know much about, and thus not care much about.
As LF said, I think as people who are internet-smart age (along with their MA skill) we will see more grandmasters online. However, by then there will be some new hologram forum that we will not know how to navagate and we'll stick to the internet while our younger counterparts will wonder why they can never find us holograming (or something of the like).

 

[Kacey]

While I think everyone here has made some awesome points, I think there may be a simpler one as well. You have to be fairly old to be a Grandmaster, and most older people do not spend much time on the internet, nor are internet-savy enough to find their way to something like MT. My Grandmaster is about my parents age or older and my parents need a lot of help from me just to navagate around sites like amazon and ebay. Perhaps an internet forum is just not a culture that grandmasters know much about, and thus not care much about.
As LF said, I think as people who are internet-smart age (along with their MA skill) we will see more grandmasters online. However, by then there will be some new hologram forum that we will not know how to navagate and we'll stick to the internet while our younger counterparts will wonder why they can never find us holograming (or something of the like).

Uh... that may be true for some, but my GM is 64, and more tech-savvy than I am. He loves tech toys, uses the 'net freely, and plays WoW whenever he has time (generally 4-6 times/week); he just doesn't care for bulletin boards.

As far as age in general keeping people off computers... my father is 74, and his favorite hobby is bridge - which he plays on line as well as off, and participates in chat boards about bridge as well. To say that someone doesn't use the 'net because age prevents them from being able to be competent is a stereotype that should be avoided.

I do think, however, that GMs stay off most bulletin boards because the way they were trained, instruction should be more personal than is possible on a board - not because they are not computer savvy, but because the medium of a bulletin board is too impersonal.

 

[wade]

Did any of you ever think that maybe after your (GM) has said something or explained something or pointed out something time after time after time and have some "expert" tear it apart or some "new" person say huh? and ask it again that maybe, just maybe, it gets to be so old for your GM to be repeating him/her self again and again and again that eventually they just don't want to do it anymore. What goes around comes around, time after time and it you look at the posts on this board you will find that this is true here as it is any where else. Some of the people make an effort to start new threads and push forth new thoughts, but for the most it is, once more, the same thing time after time after ...........................

One last thought, years ago a man I knew used to quiz me on the Viet Nam war. He read up on it, he studied it and knew everything about it he could. He used to ask me so many questions that I had no clue about and finally it dawned on me. He never went to Viet Nam but he was an expert about it. I just fought in it and didn't really have a clue to what was going on (I was only 19) or why I was there except to try to stay alive. So, in reality, he was the master and I was just the new guy. There was no way I was ever going to match his level of knowledge because to be honest, I didn't really give a crap.

Like I said, there are so many experts on this site that any GM takes his/her reputation in hand to just say anything. And you wonder why a lot of them don't
say a word, hmmmmmmmmm.

 

[IcemanSK]

Did any of you ever think that maybe after your (GM) has said something or explained something or pointed out something time after time after time and have some "expert" tear it apart or some "new" person say huh? and ask it again that maybe, just maybe, it gets to be so old for your GM to be repeating him/her self again and again and again that eventually they just don't want to do it anymore. What goes around comes around, time after time and it you look at the posts on this board you will find that this is true here as it is any where else. Some of the people make an effort to start new threads and push forth new thoughts, but for the most it is, once more, the same thing time after time after ...........................

One last thought, years ago a man I knew used to quiz me on the Viet Nam war. He read up on it, he studied it and knew everything about it he could. He used to ask me so many questions that I had no clue about and finally it dawned on me. He never went to Viet Nam but he was an expert about it. I just fought in it and didn't really have a clue to what was going on (I was only 19) or why I was there except to try to stay alive. So, in reality, he was the master and I was just the new guy. There was no way I was ever going to match his level of knowledge because to be honest, I didn't really give a crap.

Like I said, there are so many experts on this site that any GM takes his/her reputation in hand to just say anything. And you wonder why a lot of them don't
say a word, hmmmmmmmmm.

Very well said, Wade!

 

[Laurentkd]

You bring up a good point Kacey. I did not mean to stereotype, but rather draw from personal experience. But, as you said, we can't put everyone into one box!

Uh... that may be true for some, but my GM is 64, and more tech-savvy than I am. He loves tech toys, uses the 'net freely, and plays WoW whenever he has time (generally 4-6 times/week); he just doesn't care for bulletin boards.

As far as age in general keeping people off computers... my father is 74, and his favorite hobby is bridge - which he plays on line as well as off, and participates in chat boards about bridge as well. To say that someone doesn't use the 'net because age prevents them from being able to be competent is a stereotype that should be avoided.

I do think, however, that GMs stay off most bulletin boards because the way they were trained, instruction should be more personal than is possible on a board - not because they are not computer savvy, but because the medium of a bulletin board is too impersonal.

 

[newGuy12]

Like I said, there are so many experts on this site that any GM takes his/her reputation in hand to just say anything. And you wonder why a lot of them don't
say a word, hmmmmmmmmm.

See, this is how I see it. I can imagine that many GrandMasters would not want to participate on a public forum. It seems to be not so fitting, in my mind, for them to do it.

Now, I know very little, but, consider this: Just for example, take GM Cho. I have read some of his books. I have seen some videos with him. But -- I could not imagine he would ever post up on a public forum.

Master Instructors are one thing, but GrandMasters are another thing. They are too busy, and when they are not busy, perhaps they want to play golf.

A Chief Justice most likely does not post on open forums a lot, either. Its the same thing. At least -- I can see how many would feel that way. They are above this (its hard to find the right words. I can only HOPE that what I type here is not misinterpreted -- I don't wish to bad-mouth public forums).

 

[DArnold]

I'm interesting why you would say this, do you not feel theycould give some great insight to training. Or do you believe they see no value, because there is no monatary gain by posting?

Argueing points with lower ranks?
What would the point be?
To what end?
This is not a class room.

For example, when someone makes a blaket statement that high kicks don't work for SD, I know they know very little, if anything, about kicking. And trying to teach them something would be akin to banging my head on a wall.

As for me, the only reason I use this discourse is to hone my skills and clarify my thoughts.

Read Joel Hyams, Zen in the Martial Arts
The chapter on "The cup being full"

 

[YoungMan]

I'll tell you why my Grandmaster would not appear in a forum:
1. He is old school Korean, and the ways and methods of the Internet are beyond him (for the most part). He respects what it can do, but does not fully trust it, since it is hard to tell who is real and who's not.
2. He believes in person to person, hands on, traditional training. If he's going to share his considerable knowledge with anyone, it will be students he knows personally, who are loyal, and willing to travel and make a commitment to see him. Why should someone who's never put that kind of dedication in to his organization benefit from his expertise?
That's also what he would never appear in an American martial arts magazine.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Truly a dizzying question.
The truth though, which many cannot handle is ugly.
There have been many TKD, KMA, JMA whatever masters on here.
People used to seeing people kneel as they approach, to getting the final word, to not being questioned and asked to verify and validate.
To behave like professionals, not a drunken argument at the pub.

Many however are so firmly locked into their own little tiny worlds, that they cannot, and so have stormed away. I remember one such person who left in a huff, who was only asked to calm down after he so "kindly and politely" told someone how he could break them like a twig if they had dared to ask such a question in his kingdom, err I mean dojang. They are mentally incapable of participating in anything where their supremacy can be or is questioned.

Of course, the other part is politics. Martial Arts history is an illusion, with competing organizations changing things to suit their goals.

Maybe however, it's because many of them are actually out doing, what people on-line only talk about, and decide that the remaining time is better spent with family than arguing with the self promoted soke's and art hoppers who know "everything" and yet know nothing?