Random thought on health care crisis

Xequat

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OK, this was just a random thought I had and it doesn't play to either political party yet, so I thought I'd throw it out there to anyone who knows something about the health care cirsis. What would you think about "alternative medicine" helping lower the costs? The argument that tort reform is necessary is a logical one and the idea that the government should pay for more of it is fine and all, but I don't mean to start a whole thread on Bush vs. Kerry on the topic. I just wonder if things like acupuncture/acupressure, Electro Dermal Screening, herbal remedies, Amish medicine, massage therapy, etc would help lower some of the costs if they can be proven to work. Herbs are a heck of a lot cheaper than prescription drugs, often even after the copay. But it's such a huge business now that it would take consumer demand more than government intervention to fix things.

By the way, we had a member of our gym claim that his wife was cured of cancer through Electro Dermal Screening (EDS, for now). They place these little electrical nodees on pressure points and measure how strong the energy flow is. Then they plug it into a computer with a whole bunch of vitamins and herbs and stuff and see how the intake of some of these medicines would alter the flow of energy. Then they create the medicine, tailor-made, for you, and voila. I've only met them after she was cured, but I have no reason to disbelieve them, especially having seen some of the pressure points stuff from my instructor.

What do you think? Start using alternative medicine as an alternative to prescription drugs and frequent doctor's appointments? Think about it...it wsa just a thought, but I hope I'm on to something.
 

TigerWoman

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Our current health care system is geared not to preventative care or even really health care but to solve the problem once the body already has it. For example, every time some one gets a virus they go in and the medical establishment, we all know, used to give out antibiotics. So now everyone has made the common antibiotics and even some of the really strong ones not effective since they either weren't taken correctly-10 days or taken when not called for and now the bacteria has adapted to that. I cringe at taking a new medicine that is supposed to help me, Vioxx, when later down the road you find out not only the side effects were bad for you but you could die from a heart attack or stroke. I did take Celebrex and I hated the effect of it and it did not help me much, so it wasn't worth the risk. Besides it does nothing to help the problem-regeneration of tissue, just reduce inflammation. So I took my health in to my own hands, as most people should, but with educated help from alternative medicine, holistic health professionals. I would like more education in schools concerning this and more "doctors" who see you for more than just symptoms and a cursory blood pressure screen and a quick fix med. I believe people need a "guide" to examine them at different stages in their lives, thoroughly examined, and map out their "health plan" together with with herbs, vitamins, etc. they should be taking. I feel our health insurance wouldn't be needed so much as fewer people would get sick or stay sick.

Now our cancer treatment is more frightening and killing as a "cure" than what the cancer is and sometimes seems to hasten death. Xequat, that sounds like an exciting cure, that pressure point/energy flow analysis with an holistic approach to curing the body, actually using the power of the body to cure itself. It would be wonderful if that were true, but it is hard to know unless it becomes publicized more. Who knows until five years down the road that it is cured? It is very interesting none the less and something to be investigated further. TW
 

TigerWoman

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Oh, and then I just go out to the mailbox after the last post, and what do I get, a solicitation to subscribe to the Mayo Clinic Women Healthsource monthly publication.

In it it states (actually first line):

"Is weight gain your inevitable reward for getting older? Are "miracle herbs" the 21st Century cure-all for everything from the common cold to cancer? If you listen to some of the most wide-held health beliefs, the answer to both questions is yes. But I'm writing to tell you here and now that those beliefs are absolutely false......"

So we are supposed to believe the medical line, the Mayo doctors. "just because herbs and supplements are unregulated, aren't tested or proven effective, and that they do not contain the ingredients they claim on their labels". Which is probably true, but why don't they get regulated?

In defense of the publication too, they do give out alot of tips to good health but it takes alot of weeding through and difficult to know if it will benefit you without doing the old trial and discard method. (similar to modern medicine). TW
 
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rmcrobertson

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It is depressing to see the number of Americans who fall for snake oil salesmen--herbology, iridology, therapeutic touch, magnetic g bracelets, palmistry, on and on and on.

It's very likethe claim that Biblical Creation is, "just as good," a scientific theory as evolution.

The difference lies in rigorous testing--NONE of the herbology, etc., has ever been subject to serious study. It's a pity that anyone would trust them before the Mayo Clinic.

Sure, I know. Many traditional treatments and folk medicines have turned out to have bases in solid fact and good clinical practice. Some of modern medicine is upwhacked in its practices. Everybody should be allowed to choose whatever treatment they want. Sure, all true.

When these guys go out and scientifically demonstrate the value of their treatments through careful clinical study and explanations of their underlying mechanisms, I consider them. Until then, why in the world would we want to legitimate frauds?
 

tshadowchaser

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My thoughts on health care as it is today.
It seems that if you have worked al your life and subscribe to most of the insurance planes in America today youget a limited stay in hospitals and a given number of days in rehab or nurseing homes. After that time you have (if you old enough) the right to go on Medicare. Meaning you must sell everything you own and spend that money on your health care till your down to $2000.
No you can not give that money or belongings to a family nenber(child, grandchild, etc). The goverment back checks your banking statements and you must repay any amount over the $2000 that has been spent or given away inthe 4 years previous to going on medicare. At least that is what I have been informed this week.
This seems like a poor way for a nation to repay someone who has given to the system all their life.
As for insurence companies they are a help to a point but worthless after that even if you have paid into them all your life.
 

TigerWoman

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rmcrobertson said:
The difference lies in rigorous testing--NONE of the herbology, etc., has ever been subject to serious study. It's a pity that anyone would trust them before the Mayo Clinic.

Sure, I know. Many traditional treatments and folk medicines have turned out to have bases in solid fact and good clinical practice. Some of modern medicine is upwhacked in its practices. Everybody should be allowed to choose whatever treatment they want. Sure, all true.

When these guys go out and scientifically demonstrate the value of their treatments through careful clinical study and explanations of their underlying mechanisms, I consider them. Until then, why in the world would we want to legitimate frauds?

Because sometimes the perceived "frauds" should be investigated and perhaps deemed a new treatment. Just like glucosamine, for which the doctors were the last to get on that bandwagon.

I have a friend who went a few rounds with Mayo doctors with extensive testing. Actually prescribed a B vitamin in excess that did her harm and never really found any help for her esophagus condition. She went to a alternative health holistic practicioner and she is doing much better now health/strength wise. ;)

I didn't say I would trust herbology before Mayo doctors. But I don't trust doctors totally either. Last major thing that happened to me, I got a battery of tests and they couldn't find what was wrong, and that was the second time for different ailments. But I probably got unnecessary surgery and an expensive MRI for nothing. I helped myself. One was stress which they never bothered to ask about, the condition ended when I quit my job, and the other was overly loose ligaments, did some exercise and avoided others, knee improved. What I did say was that herbs, supplements should become regulated. They should be investigated more, regulated in content, prescribed in correct quantity, so that more people can be sure and be able to use their value. But unless there is money in it, that won't happen. TW
 
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rmcrobertson

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Fair enough.

But that's the fault of capitalism (OK, oversimplification, the hegemonic practices that emblematize contemporary science seem to divetail prettily with capitalism) not of the science.

One of the problems is that the instinct to trust, "alternative medicine," is not to be trusted.
 

Fightfan00

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To me it seems no matter what good ideas people have to solve any issue in the U.S it still doesnt seem to do any good because the politicians reject them,and you see how well they do but agreeing with each other they fail big time. :argue: :toilclaw:
 

Phoenix44

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I just wonder if things like acupuncture/acupressure, Electro Dermal Screening, herbal remedies, Amish medicine, massage therapy, etc would help lower some of the costs if they can be proven to work.
Key phrase: "if they can be proven to work."

Prescription pharmaceuticals must be tested in double-blind placebo controlled peer reviewed studies, and must be evaluated by the FDA. The same is not true for alternative therapies. Yes, sometimes later it's found that a prescription drug has problems. But the same is true for alternative therapies, which have not even been proven effective, let alone safe.

Unfortunately, many illnesses can be prevented or substantially reduced by lifestyle factors which many people ignore. If people didn't smoke, didn't drive under the influence, lost weight, exercised, used sun block, wore bicycle helmets, we'd have less lung cancer, heart disease, Type II diabetes, pediatric brain damage, skin cancer, accidental death, and throat cancer.

You can't blame the politicians any more than we can blame ourselves. Then Surgeon General C. Everett Koop said a lot of this in the 1980s.
 

kenpo tiger

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Phoenix44 said:
Key phrase: "if they can be proven to work."

Prescription pharmaceuticals must be tested in double-blind placebo controlled peer reviewed studies, and must be evaluated by the FDA. The same is not true for alternative therapies. Yes, sometimes later it's found that a prescription drug has problems. But the same is true for alternative therapies, which have not even been proven effective, let alone safe.

Unfortunately, many illnesses can be prevented or substantially reduced by lifestyle factors which many people ignore. If people didn't smoke, didn't drive under the influence, lost weight, exercised, used sun block, wore bicycle helmets, we'd have less lung cancer, heart disease, Type II diabetes, pediatric brain damage, skin cancer, accidental death, and throat cancer.

You can't blame the politicians any more than we can blame ourselves. Then Surgeon General C. Everett Koop said a lot of this in the 1980s.
Well said, Phoenix.

And you too, Robertson.

TW, I know you're very careful about things and will usually do a great deal of research into something before you agree with or utilize it. I'd be interested in hearing just a bit more... KT
 

TigerWoman

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kenpo tiger said:
TW, I know you're very careful about things and will usually do a great deal of research into something before you agree with or utilize it. I'd be interested in hearing just a bit more... KT

Hearing a bit more about ....? I didn't agree or disagree in Xequat's possible cure. If I had cancer, or had someone close to me, I would be reading up and asking questions on it though. TW
 
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Xequat

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I agree with most of this stuff...I mean of course the remedies need to be tested. I'm not talking about snake oils and spiritual healing. I would certainly need some empirical evidence to prove that these remedies work before incorporating them into the mainstream. I have had some extremely negative experiences with doctors, however, and they have left me with the impression that doctors are just regular people who go to school more than the everage bear. I don't see them as altruistists by any means, but that's what some seem to think that they are.

As for capitalism, it's the reason we have as good quality medicine we have today. If it weren't for money, then there would be very few pacemakers or surgeons or medicines. The fact that we have a capitalist society does not make people capitalists; the fact that people are capitalists (pretty much everyone likes to have nice things) gves us the capitalists society. Don't blame the capitalist system, blame the capitalists if you must, which, of course, is everyone. I'd love to live in a world where people didn't care how big their TV is or how fast their car can go, but instead tried to pass on information and improve people's quality of life and love thy neighbor, but until then, we must work with what we have.

The reason I bring up the alternate medicine is that I messed up my back at work and was sent to physical therapy. Now, PT is great if you need to reconstruct muscles, but in my case, it was the muscles that threw my back out of alignment. Why would I want to strengthen them? All I needed was to get the muscles relaxed and my bones put back where they belonged, but instead, I had a month of time and money-wasting PT until I finally got it fixed my self and told PT people that I was fine before I actually was. I think it's a con a lot of times. They didn't have a chiropractor or massage therapist on staff; therefore, it must not be what I need. In fact, it was. And don't get me started on the endocrinologists I have seen.
 
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rmcrobertson

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Isn't it pretty to think that the entire arrangement of your society and its economic life has no real effect on who you are as a person?

"All I needed was to get the muscles relaxed and my bones put back where they belonged, but instead, I had a month of time and money-wasting PT until I finally got it fixed my self and told PT people that I was fine before I actually was. I think it's a con a lot of times. They didn't have a chiropractor or massage therapist on staff; therefore, it must not be what I need." Clearly this has nothing to do with economic reality. Nothing whatsoever.

Love to see the old grounding of capitalism in a biology, though...talk about snake oil.
 
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Xequat

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Dude, settle down; I almost agree with you. I think that the greed and oversized nature of the health care industry is part of the problem. The example I gave illustrates that money overrules care for another person.
Anyway, if you happen to dislike capitalism, so be it. That's not the issue. I'm asking your opinion whether some alternate cures are worth pursuing in order to lower the cost of the overgrown system. I'm a big fan of rigorous testing but I'm also open to the idea that there is more out there than what the drug companies tell us. What modern physiologist will tell you about pressure points, for example? I've seen them work.

Another thing is, there is a huge difference between health and medicine. Medicine is what you need when something goes wrong and health is what you do to prevent it. To call it health care is really kind of a misnomer...it should be called a medical care crisis, I guess. What I'm saying is that there is very little money involved with the alternative cures, so maybe if we start using and researching them, the overall system might cost less. But I don't know for sure, which is why I asked your opinions
 
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rmcrobertson

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Dude, avoid taking everything so personally....kinda annoying when you get a response that starts out by suggesting some sort of neurosis, ain't it?

Beyond the fact that chiropractics aren't scientifically grounded in careful clinical study (curing diabetes by manipulating the spine...uh....), the real issue is that what you're describing is, "alternative," medicines that are simply clamoring for their own commodification.

Look at who it was in the Senate and government that supported the bills taking "alternative," medicines out of the control of the FDA...give ya a hint; heppened under Ronald Reagan.

Immediately, completely-untested drugs like St. John's Wort got mass marketed. Are you sure it was really just out of the goodness of the marketers' little holistic hearts? I know that the rise of such therapies is one of the reasons health care costs keep zooming.

The whole point of so-called, "holistic," therapies is that they represent an alternative to patriarchal and capitalist modes of medicine.
 

TigerWoman

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And a good point that is...that holistic therapies may be an alternative... if only they are tested, deemed pure and worked with in synchrony with both medical and holistic practioners...gee, maybe they include that in the same school and call it preventative health care instead of patch fix-it-after-its-broke care. Its called being open-minded.

In our town clinic, in the last three years, they started asking people what they are taking in the way of herbal supplements but not once did they give me any advice about what to actually take or what quantity. A multi-vitamin, Vitamn E, Calcium/Mag. would be for starters...?? But then, if every person was tested, pre-screened with a health plan, and followed it-the hard part, it would significantly reduce going to the doc. TW
 

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