Racist Cop or Combative Professor?

[Archangel M]

Now that we have that out of the way, do you think Crowley contributed to the situation by remaining on premises after positively ID'ing Gates and determining that no crime had been committed? Or to say it another way, do you think that there would be any kind of story at all if Crowley had simply left after having done his job?

Woulda..coulda..shoulda..bottom line is he didnt haveta. He had a legal reason to be where he was and do what he did.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

For those that say that Sgt. Crowley contributed to the situation my question is this: To what situation did he contribute?

I am certain that he did not go to the press, or speak with the President. And why, when he was already making a scene in public, would you think that this "situation", would not have occured anyway, ie. Gates going to the press or Pres?

While I am not saying that I would have arrested Gates (we don't have such laws here in California), I don't begrudge him his reasoning for doing so. I find it interesting that there are those who "know" that Sgt. Crowley arrested him because he got upset with Gates for what he said. In fact, you have no idea why he did it. And even if Sgt. Crowley told you the reason, those of you who have predetermined the reason would not probably believe it anyway.

Let me give you an example from my own personal experience. I have pulled over people for traffic violations. Sometimes, they make the excuse that I have only pulled them over for being black/hispanic. So what are my options? I can let them go, in which case there is no record of the reason for which I detained them, so if they complain it will seem as though I'm making excuses. Or, I can write them a citation, in which case it will be legally documented, even to the point where I will get to argue my position in court and have a judge determine whether my stop was justified or not.

One carries a higher risk of getting me administratively into trouble then the other.

Which way would you go???

 

[Archangel M]

+1 that is the "backfire" component of using the "race card" in police contacts (as a ploy). It now puts the cop in the position of thinking "damn I was going to let him go with a warning, but if he calls in a complaint and I have no documentation as to why I contacted him it will look like I DID pull him over for no reason."

Ive had people "seal their fate" into a summons for exactly that reason.

 

[CoryKS]

Good god, this thread is epic. It even survived a Godwin a few pages back. It cannot be stopped!

 

[Steve]

So, we can all put you down as: "I'm not answering the question, because doing so would clearly make me look dumb." Is that right?

Big Don, the point is, I've answered your question in almost every single post in this thread. But, since you're being obtuse, I'll say it again. Gates introduced race. Gates was as much a part of the problem as anyone else. I am genuinely at a loss at how I could be more clear. You guys continuously attack a straw man and avoid (and continue to avoid) the questions I ask. The reason I'm focusing on Crowley is that everyone else seems to be deliberately excusing him from his involvement.

As for looking dumb, I'm pretty sure we all look dumb by now, and have for many pages. It's interesting to me to think about the parallels between the course of this thread and the topic of the thread. Much the same as I believe Crowley is as guilty of creating the situation as Gates, I'm sure I am as guilty as you guys for creating this quagmire of misunderstanding. When I read your remark about not wanting to look dumb, I actually laughed out loud because I'm pretty sure we all already do.

Of course, I'm too stubborn to let it drop, so... there ya go. It's a recognized character flaw I have.

Woulda..coulda..shoulda..bottom line is he didnt haveta. He had a legal reason to be where he was and do what he did.

And once again, you fail to even approach the subject. Fingers in the ears, saying, "Lalalala." Anytime someone is granted authority over someone else, there is the potential for abuse of that authority. In this case, Crowley allowed the situation to spiral out of control to the point he had no choice but to arrest Gates, at best, or engineered the spiral so that he could arrest Gates at worst.

5-0Kenpo, Crowley was the focus for the tirade. Had the police left after having done their job, there would be nothing to report. Instead, he chose to stick around and make things worse. I'll ask the same question again, in case someone might want to answer it. I realize it's conjecture, but that's okay, because this is a discussion. In the absence of any kind of threat of violence or some other real danger, after ID'ing Gates, had Crowley ignored Gates' tantrum and said, "Thank you for your time. Sorry for any confusion. Have a nice day." And left. Do you think that there would be any kind of story at all if Crowley had simply left after having done his job?

 

[Big Don]

Big Don, the point is, I've answered your question in almost every single post in this thread. But, since you're being obtuse, I'll say it again. Gates introduced race. Gates was as much a part of the problem as anyone else. I am genuinely at a loss at how I could be more clear. You guys continuously attack a straw man and avoid (and continue to avoid) the questions I ask. The reason I'm focusing on Crowley is that everyone else seems to be deliberately excusing him from his involvement.

Funny how people blame those who start problems...

5-0Kenpo, Crowley was the focus for the tirade. Had the police left after having done their job, there would be nothing to report. Instead, he chose to stick around and make things worse. I'll ask the same question again, in case someone might want to answer it. I realize it's conjecture, but that's okay, because this is a discussion. In the absence of any kind of threat of violence or some other real danger, after ID'ing Gates, had Crowley ignored Gates' tantrum and said, "Thank you for your time. Sorry for any confusion. Have a nice day." And left. Do you think that there would be any kind of story at all if Crowley had simply left after having done his job?

There absolutely would be, because Gates thinks he was persecuted, is a friend of Obama, and LOVES to be in the media.

 

[seasoned]

Big Don, the point is, I've answered your question in almost every single post in this thread. But, since you're being obtuse, I'll say it again. Gates introduced race. Gates was as much a part of the problem as anyone else. I am genuinely at a loss at how I could be more clear. You guys continuously attack a straw man and avoid (and continue to avoid) the questions I ask. The reason I'm focusing on Crowley is that everyone else seems to be deliberately excusing him from his involvement.

As for looking dumb, I'm pretty sure we all look dumb by now, and have for many pages. It's interesting to me to think about the parallels between the course of this thread and the topic of the thread. Much the same as I believe Crowley is as guilty of creating the situation as Gates, I'm sure I am as guilty as you guys for creating this quagmire of misunderstanding. When I read your remark about not wanting to look dumb, I actually laughed out loud because I'm pretty sure we all already do.

Of course, I'm too stubborn to let it drop, so... there ya go. It's a recognized character flaw I have.
And once again, you fail to even approach the subject. Fingers in the ears, saying, "Lalalala." Anytime someone is granted authority over someone else, there is the potential for abuse of that authority. In this case, Crowley allowed the situation to spiral out of control to the point he had no choice but to arrest Gates, at best, or engineered the spiral so that he could arrest Gates at worst.

5-0Kenpo, Crowley was the focus for the tirade. Had the police left after having done their job, there would be nothing to report. Instead, he chose to stick around and make things worse. I'll ask the same question again, in case someone might want to answer it. I realize it's conjecture, but that's okay, because this is a discussion. In the absence of any kind of threat of violence or some other real danger, after ID'ing Gates, had Crowley ignored Gates' tantrum and said, "Thank you for your time. Sorry for any confusion. Have a nice day." And left. Do you think that there would be any kind of story at all if Crowley had simply left after having done his job?

One thing you won't hear on this thread is, cops are taught to win, don't quote me.

 

[kaizasosei]

Don't want to really come between..., but i must say that power does corrupt a person easily. Hope it's ok to share this story, for example, funny that just yesterday, in the parka guys canine attacked my gfs dog. So having the responsibility of taking care of the dog, i saw myself having to shout- also, i was figuring out if the guy himself, who was chatting with some lady, was someone i had seen once there that practices cappoeira with his dog always barking at him and he doing very powerful spin kicks and the like without hitting the dog. Now i love playfighting with dogs, so i was naturally interested. But it made me mad because i think it is the wrong way to go and technically he could hit the dog by accident rather easily with ultrafast spinkicks. He doesn't give the dog a chance, there is no wrestling really only weaving in and out-plus, why? I mean, it takes a lot of energy to do those moves, why in a public place....-if i see him i will confront him to see if he is a good guy and might even challenge him.
I'm a person that really minds my own business, but in this case i would like to at least talk to the guy and take a little closer look at the whole thing. Whatever the owner of the dog in question was not the cappoeiraguy.

Anyhow,,rambling now, i know but when i shouted at the mut to stop attacking #my dog, i may have been a little more nasty that was necessary. Shouting in japanese out of habit, i effectively managed to stop the dog that was not really nasty. OK, so here we go, the guy i guess responding to the aggression and worry in me-simply makes a snyde remark like -speakgerman- so i look at him and say, 'i will speak in any language i goddamn feel like'-half in english with a couple of f words. 'why should i?' i ask
Ok, then he says, 'you do not want to mess with me', you don't know me' do you blabla.' Me being a careful person wondered if he be some kind of hab and truly have connections and knowledge. so I said to him, 'well, you don't know me either do you, do you'
Also, i purposely said it in a bit of a spooky calm way to retort to the stupid line. he seemed to geniuinly not have a clue as to my person-answering 'no he doesn't know me, but he can see..'? wtf- do i look so weak, ok- maybe the limp from the blister on my heel(damn wool folds-i normally never get blisters even for days on walking)...?

i think when he said that he is not to be messed with, i think he meant some martial arts training. Not like his dad is police chief or he has a syndicate of prowlers under his controll, or is one himself.


. Then i tell him he's a piece of ****(in english&german for added clarity). My plan, i want him to attack me. But he is not that type of guy it seems.- I start leaving, i tell him sorry for the mean words, but after i shout to protect my canine, he tells me to speak so and so language...(sortof reeks of racial intollerance)- and THAT, i tell him, i find distasteful(finally able to find vocab without f words).

So i'm a good deal away now and he retorts 'thank god'(like thank god i find it distasteful??-actually kindergarten level)- wtf- why is the guy bringing god into this, i thought. So i stop and head back walking briskly, limp gone- the guy was very frightened and making the stop motion with his palms, going back meters, while repeatedly giving me warnings--the lady leaves. I go closer and keep repeating what he had said, with open arms but the fear in him his dog starts growling, i crouch down and reach peacefully for the dog and the dog is pacified and i pet it vigorously lovingly exposing my face. I get up and head towards him closer, he still trying to stop me, collapsing a bit and i have to turn my hips a tad because i can sense he is thinking to hit me in the nuts(later on a find a mirco scratch on the knuckle of my thumb).
I keep smiling and telling him 'thank god' and slowly he is beginning to see that i mean him no harm and if i did, i think he would most likely have no chance.

OK, sorry for the long story, but it is fresh and shows how ****ed up we can be when provoked in certain ways. I personally, believe that Gates should not have provoked the Policeman in the first place. I think that he was abusing his status and power in the first place. Then i also agree that the police should have left, but they are human too and if challenged in certain ways, their egos kick in, their complexes and whatever. Just like any confrontation, one hurts and challenges the other. It's in peoples nature to want to do something to the other to get justice done, the smart ones know how to charge and sue, the less aware might lose their cool.

In my story, the guy started with the power trip- telling me 'i don't want to mess with him' i was spooked, i was imagining a team of mercenaries stalking me down. I thought the guy had access to peoples files and could influence lives,jobs and fortune.
Then i ask if he knows me....he seemed disinterested. He was bluffing, i was confused. i mean i don't have much worldly power and am a very cashless luckless person(hopefully can change that) with my passion in the arts and spirituality my only real asset. Still, it's a vicious circle. After leaving again, the guy called me back and we bowed to each other, both appologized for our shortcomings and walked off practically, sortof having made friends

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Chris Rock has this to say about it:

 

[MJS]

You're acting like that was my opinion. MJS, go back and read what I actually wrote. It's not open for debate. It's not like I made it up. I am very confident that the corporate policies in most, if not all, of the stores in your local mall, you'd find that what I said is true. Most of what you guys disagree with in my posts are things I never said. It's making me feel like I'm on an episode of Candid Camera (Online Version).

Originally Posted by celtic_crippler
Retail managers call the police in these situations. As would anyone else who experienced an overly disruptive individual in their work place.
No, they don't. Not typically. In fact, they aren't usually allowed to call the police or even mall security until they've directed to do so by their LP rep. Of course, each company has their own policies.

This is what was said from the last exchange. I'm simply saying that I can't believe that calling the PD has to be cleared by anyone. AFAIK, mall security have no arrest powers, despite what they may think, so if there was someone getting assaulted, I'd think that someone should call. If someone punched me in the back of the head and took my wallet, you're saying that its the company policy that a manager or some official head of the store would need to give the ok first, before they call? I'm asking, what if there is no official person working at the time? Is one of the highschool age kids working the counter going to call or tell me they can't?

 

[MJS]

You guys just can't do it. When your own double standards are pointed out you can't admit it.

Okay, I'll try again. After having positively IDing Gates, does anyone believe that Gates was any kind of physical threat to Sgt. Crowley? Or, I guess, more relevant, does anyone believe that Crowley felt as though he was in any physical danger? No accounting of the situation leads me to believe that he did. Everything points to what amounts to a sticks and stones situation.

Seeing that a) nobody on this forum was present, and b) we don't have, what I feel is very important, and that is exactly what words were said. I asked his before in another post, and you felt it wasn't necessary, but in fact it is. Why do you think the 911 tapes were pulled? To use as evidence as to what the convo. between the caller and dispatcher was. If some dash-cam on the cruiser caught this incident, if some passerby started taping this from the street, you can bet that this would help. This is turning in a he said/she said game. We're all speculating as to what was said. I can't answer the above questions, because I wasn't there. As I said, Gates could've said that he was going back in the house to grab a gun and shoot Crowley. He could have said that he was going to come out and kick his ***. We dont know.

So, if we can all agree on this, the question is, why did Crowley stick around after having ID'd Gates? Why didn't he leave? So far, in this thread and everywhere else, the only reasons I've seen or heard about amount to these:
1: He was mean to me.
2: He was yelling mean things at me.
3: He said something about my mama.

Why did Gates still have to act like an ***? Crowley had options...leave or stay. He chose to stay. We don't know why, but I can take a shot and say that he stayed because Gates was still causing a public disturbance. If Crowley left and Gates continued to stand in front of his yard for another 30min yelling and screaming, you can damn well bet that his neighbors would be justified in calling the cops back, because he's causing a disturbance. Why should anyone have to subject themselves to that?

Even if that's all true, why didn't he leave? I believe it's because he was irritated and felt disrespected, and that he had decided to arrest Gates but realized he couldn't do so until he was outside the house.

It's kind of like Yorkshirelad goading others in this thread... Crowley WAS the conflict, and yet he decided to stay. That just doesn't compute for me. It seems deliberate.

I don't think race was involved in Crowley's decision to stay. I believe that ego definitely played a large role. Uppity Harvard Academic saying something about my mama! "Ahem. Sir, if you'd like to step out here, we can discuss this in front of all of these witnes... er... I mean, in a neutral area."

Come on guys. Give me a break. Once again, I'm not saying Gates acted with dignity and honor. I think it's clear that he over reacted. I'm suggesting that Crowley, in spite of all of his training, made an egregious error in judgement at best or deliberately prodded an angry academic so that he could slap the cuffs on him at worst. I don't know where it falls on that spectrum, but I'm relatively confident it's in there somewhere.

That a few of you are so quick to hide behind technicalities in order to protect Crowley, presuming the best on his behalf and the worst on Gates' is alarmingly biased. It's like they're all sitting in a pile of cow crap but you guys refuse to admit that Crowley stinks too.

In the same way, your rationale for Crowley's behavior is that Gates and Obama behaved poorly. YOu can't accept the notion that Crowley might have crap on his uniform, too.

I get the impression that you feel it was ok for Gates to keep acting like a raging *******, once it was established he wasn't a crook. Is that what you're saying? Are you saying that Crowley should have just left and let him keep spewing? So you're saying its ok for Gates to cause a public disturbance?

 

[MJS]

I don't know...I'm still confused on why this is centering around Crowley. He was sent to a burg in progress, according to what was told to the dispatcher. He gets there, after fishing thru the mess, determines that Gates is the homeowner, was having issues with the door, returned from a trip and somehow, its being said that the cop is a racist because he was 'harassing' a black man. This is the biggest load of bull that I've seen. People are asking why Crowley didn't leave. Ok, why was Gates being an ***? Did he have to yell and act like a 2yo who didn't get his way with mommy and daddy? For the same reason those claim that Crowley should have left, Gates should've shut his piehole long enough to see that the cop was only doing his job. But like always, the almighty race card has to be played, God forbid it isn't. I wonder...would Gates have been an *** if it was a black cop that arrived on scene? IIRC, wasn't there a pic. floating around somewhere with a black cop present?

 

[yorkshirelad]

Now that we have that out of the way, do you think Crowley contributed to the situation by remaining on premises after positively ID'ing Gates and determining that no crime had been committed? Or to say it another way, do you think that there would be any kind of story at all if Crowley had simply left after having done his job?

I don't think that Crowley would've been doing his job, if he'd left while a raving nutcase was causing a public disturbance. However trivial you think Gates' behaviour was, the cops (notice I say cops in the plural, there was more than one) deamed his behaviour sufficiently disturbing to warrant an arrest.
Steve, if Crowley had been out of line and his behaviour noted by the president the way it was, do you not think that his department would've handled it?You know, set up some kind of enquiry with the possibility of some kind of punitive action. Do you not think that with this amount of scrutiny from the media, Harvard, POTUS, Crowley's department would not be initiating some kind of damage limitation. But they didn't. Instead, the President is in damage limitation mode. I wonder why?

 

[yorkshirelad]

Crowley was the focus for the tirade. Had the police left after having done their job, there would be nothing to report. Instead, he chose to stick around and ?

That's a pretty large assumption. When I lived in Yorkshire as a kid, I used to ride my bike down to a village called Berwick in Elmet. The village is a quaint little place and very quiet. I hadn't been there for years and one day read an article about it in 'The Yorkshire Evening Post'. Apparently a disturbed guy, let's called him Fred, took the liberty to stand next to the maypole and shout "evolution, devolution" over and over again. The police came out to speak to him, he ould get verbally aggressive. They would move him to another place. Well, he came back and one of the local home owners got pissed and went out to give Fred a piece of his mind. Fred punched him, the guy banged his head on trhe pavement and died. Guess whose head was on the block? Was it crazy guy, no. He got what he needed, psychiatric care. Was it the cops? Yep. Why? Because logic prevailed that they should've dealt with him correctly when they had the chance.
Now Steve, you have tried to climb inside the head of Gates and come to the assumption that if Crowley had just left him on the side walk, screaming like a three year old girl, the situation would've dealt with itself. But what if your assumption is incorrect and Gates had carried on being pissed and in turn pissed off other residents, who in turn had seen the cops leave and therefore decided to shut Gates up themselves?

You see, your assumptions open the door to further speculation. We do not know how Gates would've behaved IF Crowley had just left, but we KNOW for certain how Gates behaved during his little scene with Crowley and that is all we have to go on.

 

[jks9199]

jks, I'm sorry I missed this response. Regarding this statement by you, I am reminded of something that hits close to home. My oldest is 13 now. When he was much younger, about 4 or 5, he was willful. I would tell him to do something... go to bed, perhaps. He would defy me. I would demand that he obey and he would say no. Now, I understand (and understood then) that this was normal. However, I would handle the situation poorly. I would draw a line in the sand and he would cross it. "Don't do X or you're losing TV for a day." He'd do X. "Do it again and it's 2 days." Before I knew it, he'd be out of TV for 5 years or some ridiculous thing like that. Point is, he misbehaved, but I was as much to blame for the situation. I am the adult and I allowed the situation to spiral out of control and the consequences to exceed the crime. I would always regret it (and remember these situations with regret and some amount of shame), and I would like to think that I am much better at managing myself, so that I can better control situations like that.

In much the same way, I believe that Crowley lost control of the situation. While Gates acted like a buffoon, Crowley SHOULD have been able to manage the situation, but didn't. At some point, he began drawing lines in the sand, and before he knew it, the consequences were far in excess of the situation.

What would be worse, and we'll never know whether this is the case or not, would be if Crowley recognized it and deliberately chose to escalate the situation by asking Gates out only so he could arrest him. While I'd give Crowley the benefit of the doubt, only he can know for sure if that was the case.

First, Dr. Gates is not a 5 year old child.

Second, did you let your child misbehave or defy you indefinitely? Or did a time come where you took some sort of disciplinary action, and actually stuck with it? You empowered the child's defiance by drawing the line, than shifting it back. Sgt. Crowley drew the line. But when Dr. Gates crossed it, the sergeant took action. He had to, if he wanted respect down the road.

 

[Archangel M]

Thing is Steve..you keep focusing on how Crowley ALLOWED someone else to behave...Crowley DIDNT CONTROL Gates...Crowley maybe LURED/BAITED Gates outside..etc.

Since when are cops now responsible for how another CHOOSES to behave? If some mook on the street assaults me on the street tonight is his responsibility mitigated because I wasnt aware enough..wasnt trained properly....didnt control him properly?

The bottom line is, perhaps Crowley "could have" done many things differently but he was still doing his job within its legal parameters. I think every cop here has already said that. You seem to want us all to now lay BLAME on him as well.

Gates CHOSE to act the way he did on his own accord...trying to lay the blame for a persons actions on another person is classic liberal "victim status" BS in my opinion.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I'm impressed that you guys are so involved with this. I think the people consistently posting this area need to find something to do other then talk about this.
The Cops showed up and did what they needed to do
Gates showed proof that it was his house
The cops should of left, but arrested the guy because he was being an ***
The cops realised they ****ed up and let him go
Gates started screaming racism
Obama stepped in where he shouldn't have

People get the hell over it. It's not the end of the world if cops screw up a little, someone over reacts, and Obama answers a damn question.

 

[kaizasosei]

I have thought about that before. That to be crazy and violent is a danger to oneself, so it is better to be dealt with by an officer than running into a dangerous adversary. But even with all the legal backing of a badge, it is still possible to get in trouble and have ones actions scrutinized. I guess that is a comforting thought on one hand,- i personally don't want to polarize the issue of police vs. civilian anymore. I would rather see it in a case by case way. Only thing is that it does suck to have legal problems

Unfortunately, we can't see it. No video to go on. Maybe there is one? I haven't come across one yet. Without that,.. i must say i have little info as it is. I do think that generaly however, one should do more study on why people resist arrest and figure out how to get through their skulls.
I mean, i can see it, i guess i wouldn't mind lying down, getting cuffed or even being ruffed up a bit , ok- but the point is that the people believe that they haven't done anything and there is little connection between the officer and the people- it should be like in a restaurant where you get arrested and then get told to have a nice day- ok, might be is exaggerated in the case of a true crime and resentments-

At the end of the day, must be cool to get to have a beer at the white house.


j

 

[Archangel M]

I'm impressed that you guys are so involved with this. I think the people consistently posting this area need to find something to do other then talk about this.
The Cops showed up and did what they needed to do
Gates showed proof that it was his house
The cops should of left, but arrested the guy because he was being an ***
The cops realised they ****ed up and let him go
Gates started screaming racism
Obama stepped in where he shouldn't have

People get the hell over it. It's not the end of the world if cops screw up a little, someone over reacts, and Obama answers a damn question.

If you are not interested, dont participate.

I think this interests cops quite a bit because it illustrates a phenomena that we see all the time and most people dont believe us when we talk about it....

 

[Twin Fist]

i would have been ok with it if Gates had gotten bounced around in the back of the cop car.

get mouthy with police at your own risk i say.