Racial Profiling At Logan

[MJS]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22087842/

King Downing, a member of the ACLU, was at Logan airport. He was detained by police, who requested his ID. He initially refused, but after a threat of arrest, changed his mind. He has filed a suit against the airport. His reasoning behind this seems to be that his look, rather than his actions, were the basis for the initial stop.

As always, chances are, none of us were there, so all we have to go on is what the article says. Downing is claiming that he did nothing wrong. The police are saying that he was acting suspicious.

He claims:

Downing was stopped "for no apparent reasons other than his appearance," said Peter Krupp, one of his attorneys. "He knew his rights, and he knew he had done nothing wrong."

The police claim that race was not a factor because:

Logan officials say race played no role in the decision to question Downing. The first trooper to ask Downing for identification was black, and three of the four officers who arrived later were also black, according to court documents. The first trooper said he became suspicious when he saw Downing watching him.

Thoughts?

 

[grydth]

The system in place at Logan Airport is not racial profiling but rather behavior recognition - police will approach individuals behaving suspiciously. Race is not a factor.

The day police cannot do this is the day terrorists wll be able to kill us all.... after casually walking past security.

 

[MJS]

The system in place at Logan Airport is not racial profiling but rather behavior recognition - police will approach individuals behaving suspiciously. Race is not a factor.

The day police cannot do this is the day terrorists wll be able to kill us all.... after casually walking past security.

Agreed. It states that the officer became suspicious because Downing was talking on the phone and watching him. Not sure if he was doing anything else, and if he was, exactly what it was, but regardless, it was apparently enough for the cop to stop and question him.

Of course, by Downing initially refusing, more red flags were raised I'm sure.

 

[Big Don]

Agreed. It states that the officer became suspicious because Downing was talking on the phone and watching him. Not sure if he was doing anything else, and if he was, exactly what it was, but regardless, it was apparently enough for the cop to stop and question him.

Of course, by Downing initially refusing, more red flags were raised I'm sure.

Someone stares at me, I ask them "Can I help you?" Which is what it sounds like this cop did...

 

[KempoGuy06]

Let see Im a cop and I am just looking at everyone in the crowd. I notice that one person is on a phone and keeps looking at me and then looking away, looking at me and looking away.

What would my reaction be?

The exact same! You are at an airport, what do you expect.

The same thing happened to me acctually, just 2 weeks ago when I was going to Florida for the holidays. I was looking at this cop who looked familiar. Apparently he or someone else saw me and asked me for my ID, I gave it to him, he asked where I was headed and why (also asked my why I was limping and had to show them the brace for my knee, not related but funny to me). He then asked me why I was staring at him. My exact response was "Sir I was not starring at you was only checking to see if you were someone I knew because I have friends that are cops" He asked who and I told him. We talked and then I went on my way. That was it.

This guy would have been better off to say, I was looking at you because I dont like cops. They might have searched his stuff but nothing more and he would have left.

This race thing is nuts! Its a big topic here in Louisville. Actually its reverse racism that is the issue

B

 

[MJS]

Let see Im a cop and I am just looking at everyone in the crowd. I notice that one person is on a phone and keeps looking at me and then looking away, looking at me and looking away.

What would my reaction be?

The exact same! You are at an airport, what do you expect.

The same thing happened to me acctually, just 2 weeks ago when I was going to Florida for the holidays. I was looking at this cop who looked familiar. Apparently he or someone else saw me and asked me for my ID, I gave it to him, he asked where I was headed and why (also asked my why I was limping and had to show them the brace for my knee, not related but funny to me). He then asked me why I was staring at him. My exact response was "Sir I was not starring at you was only checking to see if you were someone I knew because I have friends that are cops" He asked who and I told him. We talked and then I went on my way. That was it.

This guy would have been better off to say, I was looking at you because I dont like cops. They might have searched his stuff but nothing more and he would have left.

This race thing is nuts! Its a big topic here in Louisville. Actually its reverse racism that is the issue

B

Ya know, IMHO, I think you hit the nail right on the head with this post! Especially when you said you gave him your ID when he asked. No headaches, you both had a short, friendly convo. and off you went. I don't understand why some people like to cause a big scene.

 

[grydth]

We don't know why Downing acted like this...... but the article gives me some, um, "Suspicion"

Downing is the top ACLU official fighting racial profiling, the article tells us, and he was going through Logan to attend - guess what - a conference on racial profiling.

One wonders if he wasn't drumming up business on his own.... just a "suspicion", mind you, but methinks he did this on purpose to make a case. Have we seen this before, folks?

 

[redfang]

Apparently, in Mass. it is illegal to refuse to show ID. Where I am, NC, only if one is driving does one have to produce a drivers license. Now, if I have PC on someone for a citable offense and they don't have ID, they are going to jail if I can't verify who they are. But if I stop someone for 'suspicious behavior' they don't have to show me anything (Inconvenient for me, sure, as a lot of people who have warrants iconveniently have no ID.) they don't have to talk to me, and unless I have reasonable suspicion of something, I can't detain them if they don't want to be detained.

 

[jks9199]

Let see Im a cop and I am just looking at everyone in the crowd. I notice that one person is on a phone and keeps looking at me and then looking away, looking at me and looking away.

What would my reaction be?

The exact same! You are at an airport, what do you expect.

The same thing happened to me acctually, just 2 weeks ago when I was going to Florida for the holidays. I was looking at this cop who looked familiar. ... My exact response was "Sir I was not starring at you was only checking to see if you were someone I knew because I have friends that are cops" He asked who and I told him. We talked and then I went on my way. That was it.

This guy would have been better off to say, I was looking at you because I dont like cops. They might have searched his stuff but nothing more and he would have left.

We don't know why Downing acted like this...... but the article gives me some, um, "Suspicion"

Downing is the top ACLU official fighting racial profiling, the article tells us, and he was going through Logan to attend - guess what - a conference on racial profiling.

One wonders if he wasn't drumming up business on his own.... just a "suspicion", mind you, but methinks he did this on purpose to make a case. Have we seen this before, folks?

Apparently, in Mass. it is illegal to refuse to show ID. Where I am, NC, only if one is driving does one have to produce a drivers license. Now, if I have PC on someone for a citable offense and they don't have ID, they are going to jail if I can't verify who they are. But if I stop someone for 'suspicious behavior' they don't have to show me anything (Inconvenient for me, sure, as a lot of people who have warrants iconveniently have no ID.) they don't have to talk to me, and unless I have reasonable suspicion of something, I can't detain them if they don't want to be detained.

Police rely on behavioral profiling -- we just didn't always have a name. We'd call it "good eyes" or "good instincts" or "sharp police work." We look at someone, and we consider everything we see; the time of day, where they're looking (or not looking), what they're doing and wearing, and, yes, sometimes even their race. If I'm in a Latino community, and I see a black guy... I'm gonna wonder what's up. Sometimes, that adds up to reasonable suspicion about that person; sometimes it doesn't. If it does, we have grounds to detain the person long enough to either confirm or refute the suspicion. If it doesn't -- we can still "make friends." We're allowed to talk to anyone we want; we can't make them talk to us, but we're allowed to say "Hi, how you doin'? What's up?" I can even ask if they have ID, and if I can have it. They can say no... In Virginia, if I have grounds to detain you and you lie to me about your identity, I can charge you with providing a false name. It's a new law; it'll be interesting to see a few cases that define detention.

In this particular case... Like Grydth, I smell a rat. Even if it's a case of innocent behavior initially, I think that Downing capitalized on the opportunity. After all, many attorneys (especially trial attorneys) learn to think on their feet, and seize an opportunity. (Though I wonder if he decided he was unfairly profiled only after discussing it with others at the conference he was an his way to...)

 

[Empty Hands]

I don't understand why some people like to cause a big scene.

Some of us think it is an infringement on our rights and freedoms to be required to produce our papers whenever asked.

 

[Big Don]

Some of us think it is an infringement on our rights and freedoms to be required to produce our papers whenever asked.

I trust you'll forgive Logan Airport's extra diligence, being that a couple of planes flew out of there and into buildings not too long ago...

 

[grydth]

Some of us think it is an infringement on our rights and freedoms to be required to produce our papers whenever asked.

You are absolutely free to hold such an opinion, and many reasonable people would agree. However - is that what happened here?

To be accurate, this is not a case of "whenever asked".....this is a case of police investigating when there is specific and identifiable suspicious behavior at a major transportation hub. I strongly believe they not only should, but must, continue doing so.

 

[BrandiJo]

To me it seems reasonable in an airport to have to show ID when asked. It would help insure safety of others knowing who is there and if any of them may be up to trouble. I would think that along with getting your bags checked, taking off your shoes, and not having large amounts of liquids showing ID to a cop who asks or a TSA officer who asks is not a big deal. That however is different then me walking down the street and being asked for ID just because some cop feels he needs it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hey they stopped a cousin of mine at an airport near me and asked her for ID as well and she claims to have been doing nothing suspicious at all and she was tall blond and about 22… oh wait… I’m guessing that was something completely different. :uhyeah:

As to Logan airport, I am guessing it was less racial and more suspicion.

Ever been to Logan Airport, if so, how many people do you think they would be stopping a day if it was racial profiling?

 

[jks9199]

Some of us think it is an infringement on our rights and freedoms to be required to produce our papers whenever asked.

I think it depends on the circumstances.

I'm in an airport, or other rather tightly controlled environment... Yeah, I expect to have to present ID when asked. If I don't want to deal with that requirement, I'll travel a different way, or not go into facility.

If I'm simply walking down the street... Then it's a little different. Note in my earlier post I said that I'll ASK someone for ID. If they don't want to give it to me, and I don't have grounds to compel them -- that's the end of it. But what I find interesting is that I've very seldom been refused by people legitimately engaged in their own business... In fact, I've had people thank me for checking them out in their own neighborhood. (I think they feel that if I checked them -- I probably would check someone up to no good, too!) But, then, I'll typically explain to someone why I'm talking to them if it's more than a friendly chat. Again, most folks that are up to something legitimate don't seem to mind, if they can see where I'm coming from.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Apparently, in Mass. it is illegal to refuse to show ID. Where I am, NC, only if one is driving does one have to produce a drivers license. Now, if I have PC on someone for a citable offense and they don't have ID, they are going to jail if I can't verify who they are. But if I stop someone for 'suspicious behavior' they don't have to show me anything (Inconvenient for me, sure, as a lot of people who have warrants iconveniently have no ID.) they don't have to talk to me, and unless I have reasonable suspicion of something, I can't detain them if they don't want to be detained.

I think there was a US Supreme Court ruling that said you didn't have to....been a while, posted it a ways back in regard to another thread, and might have been a different court.

 

[MJS]

Some of us think it is an infringement on our rights and freedoms to be required to produce our papers whenever asked.

That may be so, however, if you're acting out of the ordinary, not showing them, just makes the officer think you have something to hide. Additionally, in todays world, you would think that people would be happy that the police are looking out for the well being of everyone. Personally, in todays world, I'm glad that the LEOs, security, etc take the time to investigate suspicious people. Maybe if that happened on 9/11.....

 

[MBuzzy]

The guy is in the ACLU and fights against Racial Profiling....it is basic psychology that he is going to see that more than any normal person.

Also - I have to say....when I get stopped, as a blonde haired, blue eyed 27 year old male, IN THE MILITARY.....I fail to see how they are racial profiling. If I can be stopped, ANYONE can be stopped.

Plus, the day that people don't get stopped, we're in trouble. I am always MORE than happy to surrender my ID or take off my shoes or stand on one foot if they ask. Because, if they're doing it to me, they're doing it to others........and that means that there is a chance that they'll get someone that NEEDS to be stopped.

 

[Sukerkin]

In fact, I've had people thank me for checking them out in their own neighborhood. (I think they feel that if I checked them -- I probably would check someone up to no good, too!) But, then, I'll typically explain to someone why I'm talking to them if it's more than a friendly chat. Again, most folks that are up to something legitimate don't seem to mind, if they can see where I'm coming from.

I know that others in the thread have backed this up but I just wanted to concur with this.

I got stopped by the police once (about twenty-five years ago, way before all the hyper-security-sensitivity) when I was walking home in the early hours of the morning.

I was with a friend, we were both dressed nondescriptly in dark or camouflage clothing, both long haired and both carrying a couple of large, obviously heavy, bags. At the time we were walking thorugh one of the rougher parts of the city where the burgulary rate was quite high.

Can anyone guess why the constables {foot patrol :tup:} stopped us :lol:.

It was perfectly polite and they asked us the questions you'd expect:

Where you coming from?

Where you going?

Can we ask what's in those suspiciously huge and heavy bags ?

How did we respond?

No "I know my rights, you can't harass me, I pay my taxes!" nonsense. We said where we'd been, what we'd been doing there, where we were going, why we were out so late and showed them what was in the bags.

The result? A friendly "Cheers lads, sorry to have bothered you. Goodnight".

If people are sensible then nothing need get out of hand. In a way, yes, it is an infringement of your freedom of movement but we're not talking governement oppression, barbed wire and check-points. It's law enforcement and to be welcomed.

 

[Carol]

Even without terrorism in the picture, there have been many crimes in the area that have happened at, or with a connection to, Logan Airport. Some of them are simple, such as pickpocketing or simple assault, others are more complex and hint at well-organized connections. Stories of smuggling rings, drugs, and racketteering aren't uncommon in East Boston. Some aren't stories at all, but are painful realities such as the still-unsolved murder of Susan Taraskiewicz, who went on break from her job at Northwest Airlines and never returned. Her body was found stuffed in the trunk of her car.

There doesn't seem to be much of a demand among Massachusetts residents for law enforcement to be less involved at Logan.